Where is Bennie?

[Loftgroov]

Well look no further than that episode of ‘Wife Swap’ that caused huge controversy and a national outcry in the press. If you didn’t see it, it was basically the fact that what two very different couples earn was made public in the programme.

Couple 1 = a man and woman in their 30s, him a trained IT professional, and her an office worker. No kids. Both working hard - full time, and have done so all their adults lives. Combined annual income = £36,000

Couple 2 = an unemployed man and woman in their 30s, he was off work long-term with “asthma” and she has NEVER worked in her adult life EVER. They had I think 6 kids…all (convieniently) registered with “hyperactive disorder” and “asthma”. Both man and woman smoked about 60 a day and spent £40 a week on the lottery. Combined annual income = £52,000 (ALL from state benefits..every penny)

So this was just one case bought to light, but this kind of thing is probably happening all over the country. Nobody is just “unemployed” are they. Loads of people that go unemployed go straight to the doctors and make sure they register a bad back, asthma, stress…all sorts, and before you know it money is being thrown at them hand over fist! The amount they get in benefits then becomes a total disincentive to ever seek employment, because they won’t earn much more by going back to work..and it is THIS that is the fundamental problem with the system.

How can two unemployed people afford to smoke 60 a day, sit in pubs all day long, and spend £40 a week on lottery tickets?

(and this is the reason I won’t be voting Labour..who have systematically perpetuated this state of affairs)

[jamesmcdonnell]

I hear what you’re saying maybe my view is a touch utopian. Apathy is a serious problem and I don’t know where this huge wave has come from or how to get rid of it. Maybe it’s just a symptom of a country which is comfortable for the majority (it’s a big problem in Japan where youngsters should be entering the workforce, but they tend to sponge off parents rather than the state).
I’m plenty frustrated when I think of dole-cheating scumbags sponging off the taxes provided from my sweat.

The welfare state is supposed to be a safety net but it seems plenty are happy to use it like a hammock. If a hard working decent type is made redundant and can’t find work for 3 months it’s right that something should be in place so his life doesn’t go down the toilet. But I suppose wherever a kindness is offered advantage can be taken.

I can’t believe anyone can live what I would consider a satisfying life on the levels of handouts that are available, they should keep you fed and housed and very little else. The fact that many seem to doesn’t necessarily indicate that the handouts are too high but that expectations are too low. That is the bigger problem.

Having lived on benefits for about a year myself, I can assure anyone that living on 50 quid a week is no laughing matter. It was just post September 11th, and the computer games companies were all going out of business, no temporary

Part of the problem for people who are long term unemployed, is that the system doesn't work.

The system doesn't work properly. The employment services are clueless when it comes to getting people back to work. What's the point offering someone a job which won't even pay the rent and bills? Most of the employers who go through the employment service, are just looking for dirt-cheap minimum wage labour, it's fornicating disgraceful. How anyone can work for 4.30 an hour in London, pay rent, travel and buy food is beyond me. Your take home pay would be 400 a month.

The goverment do offer top ups to help people meet their bills etc, but who on earth wants to work just to survive?

I'm bright and well educated, but after 6 months of unemployment, I was completely depressed and apathetic, and to boot had no money to travel anywhere, so looking for work was not only depressing

I had no phone line as it had been cut off, and couldn't meet my mobile phone bill

I can assure you I wasn't sitting around smoking '60 fags a day' and 'spending all day in the pub.' I don't see how anyone in my position could have been anyway.

One of the laziest people I know is a friend of mine, whose mum owns a 5 story house in Kensington. He works on a flower stall 5 days a week, for about 30 quid a day, lives with his mum, and claims unemployment benefit, and doesn't pay tax. It really pisses me off. His brother just got bought a £200,000 flat, and he's just waiting around for his mum to do the same for him. He's 31 years old, and he's hardly paid a penny in tax in his life, and yet he's had thousands and thousands of pounds off the state for doing nothing. If he wasn't a mate I'd grass him up.

The employment service also don't seem to be trying that hard to get long term unemployed people back to work. When I was first out of work, because I had been on a good salary, and had been employed solidy for 3 years previously, they wanted to get me straight back to work, and tried to force me to take really shit jobs with dreadful money, where I would hardly have been able to afford to keep a roof over my head. They wanted to fill their targets, and probably saw me as an easy option.

Having said that, there are lots of people with manufacturing skills in this country, who have been out of work for years, and there is little or no prospect of work for them out there. There's plenty of small towns around the country where workers just have skills that there is no use for in our service based economy.

[Old bones Ian]

Well i work in one of those lovely jobcentres, and have to deal with all the people that you talk about, some are good some are bad.

Some people are out for what they can get, but what life do they have?
all they do is live for what they can get, and its not much.

there is always going to be the people that seem to really abuse the state, but would you want there life? its easy to say yes, but me for one wouldn't want the familys that they have. All screaming kids , Screaming wife, imagine the cost in keeping those lot in baseball caps.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Yes, there's nothing more depressing than having nothing to look forward to except your next giro. I mean, the thing about that family who were on 54k a year in benefits, what fornicating benefits were they on that come to 52k a year?

Even if they did, not everyone gets that sort of handout, and if they had 6 kids, then I doubt there was stacks of cash left over.

[Loftgroov]

You must be kidding! It’s how you play the game.

It was all broken down in the papers at the time, and I really can’t remember the breakdown but it was along the lines of them both being registered unemployed, stressed, and “disabled” (bad back) or some cobblers… along with 6 kids (child support grants) all with some daft behaviour disorder etc etc… and various other “entitlements” they were allowed to have.

..and f*ck me it wasn’t over £50k a year!!! When I read it in the paper I nearly gobbed my tea out in shock. It caused a big fuss at the time. Perhaps you didn’t hear about it.

I can assure you..they were spending over £40 a week on lottery tickets (they even said so on the programme) and smoking 60 a day each. Now think what fags cost and tell me how they could afford that habit on income support??? But they could… easily.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Do you get more money if your kids have some sort of hyperactive disorder?

What makes me laugh is how the fat lazy gobby cow from the show has become some sort of minor celebrity now! She was an obnoxious, vile, bag of shite. Her husband seemed reasonable enough, but she was just a fat slag.

The thing is, that's one extreme case. You cannot make sweeping statements off the back of that. My mate does similar when it comes to immigration. He bases his opinion of ALL immigrants on what he calls 'anecdotal evidence' whilst decrying that the home office statistics are 'full of shit.'

It's all too easy to jump to conclusions. My mate sees some albanian begging on the tube and says 'Look, see, proves my points.' He isn't fornicating smart enough to realise that he probably passes hundreds of albanians in the course of a year, going about their business, who are honest, law-abiding, hard working people.

It's much easier to notice the bad than it is the neutral. Something which doesn't stand out, doesn't really catch your attention, and more to the point isn't newsworthy.

For instance, no newspaper is going to run with the headline.
"Gypsy pupil gets highest marks in class."

Newspapers like sensational headlines, TV likes to shock, so fat gobby twats like that woman are beloved of TV execs, whereas someone on the dole who was trying to find a job wouldn't be so interesting. It distorts everyone's view of the world unnaturally.

[Old bones Ian]

Do you get more money if your kids have some sort of hyperactive disorder?

What makes me laugh is how the fat lazy gobby cow from the show has become some sort of minor celebrity now! She was an obnoxious, vile, bag of shite. Her husband seemed reasonable enough, but she was just a fat slag.

The thing is, that's one extreme case. You cannot make sweeping statements off the back of that. My mate does similar when it comes to immigration. He bases his opinion of ALL immigrants on what he calls 'anecdotal evidence' whilst decrying that the home office statistics are 'full of shit.'

It's all too easy to jump to conclusions. My mate sees some albanian begging on the tube and says 'Look, see, proves my points.' He isn't fornicating smart enough to realise that he probably passes hundreds of albanians in the course of a year, going about their business, who are honest, law-abiding, hard working people.

It's much easier to notice the bad than it is the neutral. Something which doesn't stand out, doesn't really catch your attention, and more to the point isn't newsworthy.

For instance, no newspaper is going to run with the headline.
"Gypsy pupil gets highest marks in class."

Newspapers like sensational headlines, TV likes to shock, so fat gobby twats like that woman are beloved of TV execs, whereas someone on the dole who was trying to find a job wouldn't be so interesting. It distorts everyone's view of the world unnaturally.

Put better than i ever could James.

I've seen life from both sides of the fence, now i live in a Bus, yep thats me one of those dole scrounging new age blokes, or so evryone thinks when they see me driving past or parking up.

But i happen to work at the Jobcentre, as well as having another part time job, other people that i know live the same as me.
Hard working but end up being slated because of the way i choose to live,

[tonyevs]

The 50k a year when detailed better would look a million miles different from the idea some people here have of somebody recieving a giro for a grand a week.
If they lived in rented accomadation then they would have the bulk paid for, say £350 a week ( we are talking 6kids, so it would be a 3bedroom).
They would not have to pay council tax so theres average £50 a week for both of them.
Free dinners for the 6 kids £?
Child allowance £?
Average NHS bill for dentist and optician £?

And then they have their own money,
Wife disability ( six kids fucked back-and tits but the back is the money spinner) £100+
Boyfriend (possibly father to one of the kids) disability (depression- 6kids we said)£100+

The last bit was a bit of a piss take but imagine being stuck in their position, you would try to get as much as you could.
I lived until quite recently on a housing estate and can tell you there are very nice people making the best of a bad situation, and yes there were the stereotypes that people have mentioned here living there, one girl (not that she looked like one) did actually have about 6 kids by 6 different blokes, and she smoked ( amongst other things) like a chimney, and drank like the proverbial fish but her kids went without, they were dressed in rags,I am sure if she was born with millions she would still turn out scum, but to tar everybody with the same brush is wrong.

[KOJOE90]

All screaming kids , Screaming wife, imagine the cost in keeping those lot in baseball caps.

[Shirow]

Toneyevs makes the point i was going to.

I didn't watch that wife swap thing but obviously all other things being equal it costs much more to keep a family of 6 than a couple without children.

I didn't think you got a certain amount for being out of work and a top-up for being out of work and having a bad back.
I thought inventing a 'disability' was just a way of avoiding being forced to look for and accept work and keep getting the standard unemployment benefit. Topper should be able to clear that up.

Their kids are obviously being deprived if they are spending that sort of cash on fags and lottery tickets.

The answer to that i suppose would be a where you could get discounted or free food/kids clothes etc on presentation of a benefits book. Mortgage/rent paid directly and not to claimants (i think that probably happens already though). The point being to reduce paying of cash wherever possible so only necessities are provided by the state.
Tracking what each individual had been given/sold would mean much more administration by the civil service and higher cost to taxpayers. But worth it i think for the sense of fairness it should bring and the better it works the more likely that it will pay for itself.

If you don’t want to work but want fags, lottery tickets, X-boxes, Elizabeth Duke jewellery, JD Sports shopping sprees etc – Tough.

[J]

these epeople werent the vbest example they were cadgers of the worst kind, he actually was on disability benefit for depression.

nothign wrong with that but...


he was depressed cos his dad died, 6 fornicating years ago and still he got benenfits.

thats cobblers. I RESENT EVERY PENNY.

why cos it could be doinbg some good elsewhere.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Toneyevs makes the point i was going to.

I didn't watch that wife swap thing but obviously all other things being equal it costs much more to keep a family of 6 than a couple without children.

I didn't think you got a certain amount for being out of work and a top-up for being out of work and having a bad back.
I thought inventing a 'disability' was just a way of avoiding being forced to look for and accept work and keep getting the standard unemployment benefit. Topper should be able to clear that up.

Their kids are obviously being deprived if they are spending that sort of cash on fags and lottery tickets.

The answer to that i suppose would be a where you could get discounted or free food/kids clothes etc on presentation of a benefits book. Mortgage/rent paid directly and not to claimants (i think that probably happens already though). The point being to reduce paying of cash wherever possible so only necessities are provided by the state.
Tracking what each individual had been given/sold would mean much more administration by the civil service and higher cost to taxpayers. But worth it i think for the sense of fairness it should bring and the better it works the more likely that it will pay for itself.

If you don’t want to work but want fags, lottery tickets, X-boxes, Elizabeth Duke jewellery, JD Sports shopping sprees etc – you’ll have to get a job first.

More administration means more staff, which in turns means more money, and local councils have to foot the bill for the staff in their area.

It's bad enough as it is. When I lived in Lambeth, it once took them FOUR MONTHS to process my application form for housing benefit, and they lost my form for unemployment benefit three times, and signed me off once because I was a student (even though I'd left university 7 years previously), luckily I was with a housing trust who were dealing with the rent issue, but for a normal person who needed help, what Landlord would tolerate four months with no rent? The local councils benefits teams are already understaffed, changes to the procedures like the one would make it even worse.

The reason people have the choice to get housing benefit directly, is because some Landlords throw people out when they find they are on benefits, which is pretty sick.

[Old bones Ian]

the govermont are adressing some of the problems rising from Incapacity benefit, which include trying to get people back into work, more medicals by doctors at our offices to try and find out people that are just trying it on.

The one problem is that Depression has now taken over as the main reason for claiming Incapacity Benefit, it used to be back problems.

So how do you prove that someone isn't depressed? at least with a bad back you could get evidence that their injury isn't as bad as they claim.

with depression its so hard to prove that the person is just trying to swindle the system, you can lift , run , go out , do all the normal things that a healthy person can do, but their mental state isn't correct.

One way of trying to adress this , is by investigating the GP's that just keep signing people on the sick, this is one of the massive problems that we have.

If your a GP and completly snowed under by the sheer caseload you have then its easier to just sign people off sick, rather than have them keep coming back to you everyday. So again it comes down to staffing levels at the first point of call.

As has been stated already in this thread its easy to say we should stop there money, make them work, but how, until the govermont invests proper time and money in the NHS, Jobcentres, Govermont processing departments, these problems will always exist

[jamesmcdonnell]

Excellent points....most GP's see patients for just 4 minutes a time.

A lot of the extra money going into the health service right now is being spent on management, not nursing and hospital staff, there's more and more middle managers, and people coming straight from univeristy

Where I work at St George's, they have a young girl, who must be no more than 24, with little or no work experience, but a business degree, who has come in as the head of Surgical services, to replace the last woman who came along from Deutche bank, and left after a year having pissed off everyone she worked with. What on earth does a 24 year old, with no experience of hospital work, and nothing but a business degree?

Ludicrous.

[Loftgroov]

Hmmm...that does sound ridiculous, and frankly very few employers employ people with no experience these days. Most degrees are as good as worthless.

Is she extremely fit and "broadminded" or otherwise the daughter of some head honcho there?