BoxRec

...oops.. i forot to add that truthfully i think cerdan was an excellent fighter. ...he just didn't have enough fights in the states to display his skills.

Jaclem wrote:...oops.. i forot to add that truthfully i think cerdan was an excellent fighter. ...he just didn't have enough fights in the states to display his skills.

Have you seen the LaMotta/Cerdan fight? Judging by your initial posts on this thread, I'm guessing you haven't or you wouldn't have wrote what you did.

Jaclem wrote:...oops.. i forot to add that truthfully i think cerdan was an excellent fighter. ...he just didn't have enough fights in the states to display his skills.

Beating Abrams, Raadik, Green, Roach, Williams, Zale, Walzak and Dellenoit(all top middleweights) isn't a clear indicator of his skill level?

..saw a film of the fight before you were born.

as for cerdan and the figght in the states, i agree with you...it's just that a lot of boxing writers ....incorrerctly i think....haven't conceded that was enough.

Nero3000 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:Take a look at the debate I had with Brock on the "what are ur top 15 middleweights of all time" thread. That should close the book on Cerdan/LaMotta for anyone who doesn't suffer from LaMotta-myopia.

just face the fact lamotta was the better middleweight than cerdan. lamotta beat FAR better competition than cerdan ever beat.

Face the fact? What fact? You haven't presented any facts, only debunked arguments from discredited sources. All your "facts" have been addressed and countered into oblivion.

You telling me to deal with facts is kinda comical when you have done everything to avoid dealing with the facts that have been presented to you. You evade more skillfully than Willie Pep, my friend.

cerdan was a great middlewieght who looks awesome on film, however like jaclem said he did not have enough fights against top middleweights in the states to really show his true self.


lamotta beat far better competition than cerdan beat, and he won the head to head battle




i think cerdan matches up badly vs lamotta due to styles

Nero3000 wrote:

Jaclem wrote:...oops.. i forot to add that truthfully i think cerdan was an excellent fighter. ...he just didn't have enough fights in the states to display his skills.

Beating Abrams, Raadik, Green, Roach, Williams, Zale, Walzak and Dellenoit(all top middleweights) isn't a clear indicator of his skill level?

yes its very good, however he still did not beat the level of competition lamotta beat

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
just face the fact lamotta was the better middleweight than cerdan. lamotta beat FAR better competition than cerdan ever beat.

Face the fact? What fact? You haven't presented any facts, only debunked arguments from discredited sources. All your "facts" have been addressed and countered into oblivion.

You telling me to deal with facts is kinda comical when you have done everything to avoid dealing with the facts that have been presented to you. You evade more skillfully than Willie Pep, my friend.

cerdan was a great middlewieght who looks awesome on film, however like jaclem said he did not have enough fights against top middleweights in the states to really show his true self.


lamotta beat far better competition than cerdan beat, and he won the head to head battle




i think cerdan matches up badly vs lamotta due to styles

He had plenty of fights in the States to show his true self(and this was when he was considered past his prime).

Let me get this straight. Unless a fighter has most of his fights here then he is unproven? Guess we better debunk the myth of Jimmy Wilde then. He fought almost exclusively in Britain. In his first fight in the US he was beaten.

Nobody said that Jake didn't have the better opposition. He did.

Maybe Cerdan matches badly with Jake due to one crippled arm, yes. Actually, a one-handed Marcel didn't match up that bad at all with Jake. Fought him on even terms for several rounds. Give him two usable ones and you have a different story.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

Jaclem wrote:...oops.. i forot to add that truthfully i think cerdan was an excellent fighter. ...he just didn't have enough fights in the states to display his skills.

Beating Abrams, Raadik, Green, Roach, Williams, Zale, Walzak and Dellenoit(all top middleweights) isn't a clear indicator of his skill level?

yes its very good, however he still did not beat the level of competition lamotta beat

I'm going to ask you one last time: HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM OF THE FIGHT?

Nero3000 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Nero3000 wrote: Beating Abrams, Raadik, Green, Roach, Williams, Zale, Walzak and Dellenoit(all top middleweights) isn't a clear indicator of his skill level?

yes its very good, however he still did not beat the level of competition lamotta beat

I'm going to ask you one last time: HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM OF THE FIGHT?

yes i own the fight, not full version

Jaclem wrote:..saw a film of the fight before you were born.

as for cerdan and the figght in the states, i agree with you...it's just that a lot of boxing writers ....incorrerctly i think....haven't conceded that was enough.

I find that highly unlikely since I was born in 1968 and a shaky home movie which only surfaced in recent years is all we have. However, far be it from me to call you a liar. Let me just say that your statements regarding his chances with Jake make me suspicious of your claim to have seen the film.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
yes its very good, however he still did not beat the level of competition lamotta beat

I'm going to ask you one last time: HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM OF THE FIGHT?

yes i own the fight, not full version

Then you see with your own two eyes that Cerdan is standing toe-to-toe with Jake. LaMotta is hammering away ferociously with both hands while Marcel is only chopping with the right.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Nero3000 wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
yes its very good, however he still did not beat the level of competition lamotta beat

I'm going to ask you one last time: HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM OF THE FIGHT?

yes i own the fight, not full version

As with Jaclem, I am suspicious with your claim. What you have claimed in your posts(Jake only fought with one hand, etc.) does not gel with what is presented on the film.

i never said he fought with one hand. i said he hurt his hand badly so even though he used both hands, one of them wasnt as effective because it was injured

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i never said he fought with one hand. i said he hurt his hand badly so even though he used both hands, one of them wasnt as effective because it was injured

Garbage. You have no proof that it was a factor. Remember when Tommy Hearns hurt his hand against Hagler? It was VERY noticeable and he was obviously not landing as hard with it. The Cerdan/LaMotta film clearly shows Jake winging it hard as hell throughout the bout. As I said before, he must have hurt it late in the bout. LaMotta was fighting with two mitts, Marcel was fighting with one. the films don't lie.

LaMotta was no puncher. Little Fritzie Zivic(great fighter, but still only a welterweight) was able to swap shots with LaMotta in several fights. Jake wasn't too strong for him, but he would be too strong for Cerdan?? Hilarious!

... the film i saw of the fight is tad shaky but informative...and i saw it before 1968.....in the home of a gentleman who had some notoriety in social circles and indeed was considered by a few sensationalists in the press as a gangster, though on the few occasions i was in his presence many dignitaries with fine reputations were also present.

it bothers me so much that you don't believe i saw it that i doubt that even the first sign of crocuses that usually cheers me up after a hard chicago winter will brighten my mood. i take solace, though, in your finding hilarity in my judgement of the fight.

your bringing up fritzie zivic raises an interesting point. someone on a thread here someplace quoted fritzie as saying if lamotta it a fly the fly would hit back. this may explain the mystery of how lamotta could have punched away with both hand with such abandon......maybe he hit so weakly that the contact wasn't hard enough to hurt his hands.

Jaclem wrote:... the film i saw of the fight is tad shaky but informative...and i saw it before 1968.....in the home of a gentleman who had some notoriety in social circles and indeed was considered by a few sensationalists in the press as a gangster, though on the few occasions i was in his presence many dignitaries with fine reputations were also present.

it bothers me so much that you don't believe i saw it that i doubt that even the first sign of crocuses that usually cheers me up after a hard chicago winter will brighten my mood. i take solace, though, in your finding hilarity in my judgement of the fight.

your bringing up fritzie zivic raises an interesting point. someone on a thread here someplace quoted fritzie as saying if lamotta it a fly the fly would hit back. this may explain the mystery of how lamotta could have punched away with both hand with such abandon......maybe he hit so weakly that the contact wasn't hard enough to hurt his hands.

Then apparently it didn't impress you that Cerdan was going toe to toe with him while only using one hand...and not doing too badly, either.

..nero..hey..we're practically pen pals by now....and i am not using the word "pal" sarcastically as i consider this a freindly disagreement.

however...when cerdan's shoulder injury is brought up, some forget how the injury happened in the first place. i don't think it was the referee who caused it... so that leaves lamotta and his strength as the likely culprit.


p.s. if you are interested in more points to add to your arguments that lamotta was not all the great a middle weight, dig into his first fight with villemain. though the record books says he won, the decision was so bad that the arena in which it took place had a terrible odor until the rematch, which villemain won. also, jake lost an over the weight fight with dauthuille and was way behind on points in their rematch for the title ...until he played possum and somehow came up with a .barrage with seconds to go....and this time the fly did not hit back...but was kayoed.

Jaclem wrote:..nero..hey..we're practically pen pals by now....and i am not using the word "pal" sarcastically as i consider this a freindly disagreement.

however...when cerdan's shoulder injury is brought up, some forget how the injury happened in the first place. i don't think it was the referee who caused it... so that leaves lamotta and his strength as the likely culprit.


p.s. if you are interested in more points to add to your arguments that lamotta was not all the great a middle weight, dig into his first fight with villemain. though the record books says he won, the decision was so bad that the arena in which it took place had a terrible odor until the rematch, which villemain won. also, jake lost an over the weight fight with dauthuille and was way behind on points in their rematch for the title ...until he played possum and somehow came up with a .barrage with seconds to go....and this time the fly did not hit back...but was kayoed.

Jaclem- No problem. I sound a lot more heated than I truly am. Just the way I come across. I'm actually quite friendly believe it or not.

Lamotta's strength...well, I gues you could say that. But I don't consider it out of the realm of possibility that Cerdan could have picked him up and threw him to the floor as well. Guess Marcel just abided by the rules more. I don't think it goes to Jake's credit or is any indicator of how a healthy Cerdan would do against him. Jake's strength would be nullified by Marcel's own strength(which was considerable), superior speed, power and skill.

..if this were a chess match i think we might agree to a gentlemanly draw. i am not all that much of a gentelman ; nevertheless i shall make the offer. kind of hate to see it come to a close, though, because it's been fun, but i doubt if either of us has anything more to add.

I believe the night they fought lammotta would have beaten almost all the middleweight in history after being starved a title shot by the mob Jake new it was his only chance for the title he put everything into that fight if they had fought and Cerdan hadn't hurt his shoulders yes it would be harder but Jake would still beat Cerdan on points in a fight that would be very close. in a series I take Cerdan to beat lammotta 2 out of three 3 but on that night in 1949 you would have to kill lammotta to win.