Holyfield vs. The All-Time Greats

Professor X · Post by **Professor X** » 09 Jul 2005, 18:23

Braddock would get what Douglas got against Holyfield.

Frazier would get what Tyson got against Holyfield (but I,m talking about the relatively young Holyfield that trounced Douglas and would have trounced Tyson in '90 too).

Some of you people mistake the Holyfield of Holyfield-Tyson I as the best of Holyfield. That was the shopworn, flat-footed, 34 yrs old Holyfield that had Tyson running out of the ring. And it was a 30 yrs old Holyfield that finally lost his first fight to Bowe.

I didn't say Holyfield was the third best heavyweight ever...in his prime, at 26 yrs old, when he KTFO'ed Qawi in the fourth round, he was a cruiserweight, so...

But he was an A level fighter, a clear p4p great, that probably had the best combination of skills at heavweight; he's probably number one as far as that goes,the greatest combination of skills...he could dance circles around Marciano, and probably Louis, too, if he felt like it...he jabbed with Lewis and Holmes; actually he outjabbed them...he banged with Tyson and Bowe, toe-to-toe...he showed a great chin, but he showed great intelligence, too. What heavyweights threw better combinations than him? Louis and Ali. For f-cks sake, don't say Dempsey threw better, sharper combinations than Holyfield. And don't say Tyson, with hs constant one-two combinations.

So Holyfield got rocked by Cooper (otherwise rubbing his face with leather)...Tyson sure couldn't do it, so...? Clay got rocked by Cooper, and that means nothing to me either. Out of ten mythical ->heavyweight<- tournaments, Holyfield would absolutely win two of them...not bad at all. In a p4p sense, talent-wise, Holyfield takes a back seat to nobody..'kind of like Robinson jumping up to middleweight and being a five time champion with no more than three consecutive defenses, is what Holyfield's career was like (I'd also pick Robinson to absolutely win some mythical middleweight tournaments). I think you underrate Holyfield, dan1030...what do you mean, he didn't have fast feet? Didn't you see him get across the ring at Tyson, Dokes, Lewis etc? He wasn't acurate enough? Haven't you seen the punch he knocked down Mercer with. Or that left hook on Dokes? Didn't you see the accurate Ali-Williams like combinations that dropped Moorer? F-ck, man...he'd stomp Braddock.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 09 Jul 2005, 20:04

Professor X wrote:Braddock would get what Douglas got against Holyfield.

OK....

Frazier would get what Tyson got against Holyfield (but I,m talking about the relatively young Holyfield that trounced Douglas and would have trounced Tyson in '90 too).

...No way in hell Frazier gets 'what Tyson got'...Frazier was relentless, with a 'heart' as big as Holyfield's...got up 6 times against Foreman...and Holyfield didn't hit like Foreman...the Frazier of 3/8/71 beats the hell out of any version of Holyfield...

But he was an A level fighter, a clear p4p great, that probably had the best combination of skills at heavweight; he's probably number one as far as that goes,the greatest combination of skills...

Joe Louis-Ali-Jack Johnson less 'skilled' than Holyfield? Huh-uh...that's dreamland...

he could dance circles around Marciano, and probably Louis, too, if he felt like it...

...'dance circles around Louis'?...Louis would destroy Holyfield...might take a while, might be a slow process...but in the end, Louis would KTFO Holyfield...Louis had 25 defenses...Holyfield defended successfully 3 times the 1st time around...different zip code there, Holyfield vs. Louis...

he jabbed with Lewis and Holmes; actually he outjabbed them...

Lewis was never known for his jab...Holmes was how old...42...45?

he banged with Tyson and Bowe, toe-to-toe...he showed a great chin, but he showed great intelligence, too.

ahh...he lost to Bowe the 1st time....3rd time too...may have lost the 2nd if Bowe was dedicated to training...

What heavyweights threw better combinations than him? Louis and Ali.

Jack Johnson, Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles, Larry Holmes to name a few...

For f-cks sake, don't say Dempsey threw better, sharper combinations than Holyfield.

OK...I won't...I'll just say that Dempsey could hit harder and had a substantially better left hook, maybe the best left hook...Holyfield would have a very slight edge in size...I wouldn't bet on Holyfield in that match up unless I was getting 10 - 1...

And don't say Tyson, with hs constant one-two combinations.

So Holyfield got rocked by Cooper (otherwise rubbing his face with leather)...Tyson sure couldn't do it, so...? Clay got rocked by Cooper, and that means nothing to me either. Out of ten mythical ->heavyweight<- tournaments, Holyfield would absolutely win two of them...not bad at all. In a p4p sense, talent-wise, Holyfield takes a back seat to nobody..'kind of like Robinson jumping up to middleweight and being a five time champion with no more than three consecutive defenses, is what Holyfield's career was like (I'd also pick Robinson to absolutely win some mythical middleweight tournaments). I think you underrate Holyfield, dan1030...what do you mean, he didn't have fast feet? Didn't you see him get across the ring at Tyson, Dokes, Lewis etc? He wasn't acurate enough? Haven't you seen the punch he knocked down Mercer with. Or that left hook on Dokes? Didn't you see the accurate Ali-Williams like combinations that dropped Moorer? F-ck, man...he'd stomp Braddock.

He might stomp Braddock...he'd have his hands full against the others...he had his hands full against Bowe didn't he? Is Bowe more of a threat than Louis, Ali, Johnson, Dempsey, Frazier, Holmes...a younger Foreman...I don't think so...you can think what you want...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Jul 2005, 21:02

proffessor X wrote

he could dance circles around Marciano, and probably Louis, too, if he felt like it...

are u serious???? marciano and louis would knock out holyfield . if he fought marciano, marciano would break through holyfield defense and batter hoylfield to the body and wear him down with hevay blows and he would knockout hoylfield in about the 10th or 11th. if not, marciano will win on points because he will have landed about 1000 more punches and been the agressor. if holyfield gets hit by the suzie Q forget it. against louis????? joe would jab his face apart and knock out hoylfield in about 5 rounds. holyfield would get nailed by the hardest comibnations hes ever felt, and louis would hit him with a left-right and ges gone.

But he was an A level fighter, a clear p4p great, that probably had the best combination of skills at heavweight; he's probably number one as far as that goes,the greatest combination of skills...

ur joking again right?? i mean come on man. hoylfield is best known for his heart. the reason he isnt a top 10 all time heavyweight was because his lack of skill. he never had one punch power, a great jab, or blazing speed. JACK JOHNSON, JOE LOUIS, MUHAMMAD ALI, LARRY HOLMES ALL HAD 100 TIMES MORE SKILLS THAN HOYLFIELD HAD.

HE HAD TROULBE WITH A 44 YEAR OLD HOLMES WHO STILL WON 4 OR 5 ROUNDS AGAINST HIM. A PRIME HOLMES WOULD SHUTOUT HOLYFIELD.

HOLYFIELD IS VIEWED BY SOME NOT EVEN A TOP 10 HEAVYWEIGHT YET PROFFESSOR X MAKES HIM OUT TO BE THE GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT OF ALL TIME. PROFFESSOR ARE U SURE U DIDNT MEAN TO COMPARE HOLYFIELD WITH OTHER GREAT CRUISERWEIGHTS???? I THINK U MEAN HOLYFIELD HAD MORE SKILLS THAN JEAN MORMECKS AND VRIGIL HILLS AND FRABICIO TIOZZOS. NOT HOLMES, ALI , LOUIS AND OTHERS. I THINK A PRIME MIKE TYSON WOULD HAVE KNOCKED OUT HOLYFIELD TOO BY THE WAY.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 10 Jul 2005, 03:10

..the greatest combination of skills any heavy champion had? Ezzard Charles...which is not to say he was the greatest heavyweight champion....he didn't have the physical strength , for one thing....for another he didn't take body punches as well as some of the others. i'm just saying for all around skills he has the lead. heavyweights usually are not the most skillfull fighters....and ezzard came up from middleweight where they are more to be found...and as a lightheavy he beat so many heavies bigger than he was.....before he became a heavy himself.

all around skills with the strength to go with them.....joe louis.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 10 Jul 2005, 12:58

Holyfield's defense wasn't that great he blocked too many big shots with his chin had he not had a great chin he wouldn't have been known as a great fighter.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 11 Jul 2005, 06:30

Jaclem wrote:..the greatest combination of skills any heavy champion had? Ezzard Charles...which is not to say he was the greatest heavyweight champion....he didn't have the physical strength , for one thing....for another he didn't take body punches as well as some of the others. i'm just saying for all around skills he has the lead. heavyweights usually are not the most skillfull fighters....and ezzard came up from middleweight where they are more to be found...and as a lightheavy he beat so many heavies bigger than he was.....before he became a heavy himself.

all around skills with the strength to go with them.....joe louis.

Jaclem is spot on here

Charles had to have the skills to live with these big guys. He was also like quicksilver in the ring.

Regarding Holyfield he would have given anyone a fight. I imagine he would take rounds from all the greats but I can't see him beating many of them. His fights were always exciting. he always gave his all in the ring and was a great champion in terms of the dignity he brought ot the sport. I have the utmost respect for the man.

Maybe he makes number 10 in an all-tiem list; maybe he's just outside of the 10. Top 20 I would suspect in everyone's book.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 11 Jul 2005, 07:12

He would have beaten Dempsey & Tunney & lost to all the others.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 11 Jul 2005, 11:37

Syntax Error wrote:He would have beaten Dempsey & Tunney & lost to all the others.

It's been 80 years since Dempsey and Tunney were in their fighting days...if it had been only 20 years...I'll bet you wouldn't say that...there is no living frame of reference...only what is written and filmed...if you could have actually seen them live (or even on TV with modern camera work), I'd be willing to bet you would think differently...Both those great fighters had enormous talent and heart...some of which is now overlooked because it's been so long...

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 11 Jul 2005, 11:42

thank you..you nailed that one... tunney and dempsey are all-time greats.. they are a class above holyfield

dan1030 · Post by **dan1030** » 12 Jul 2005, 23:44

Jaclem wrote:..the greatest combination of skills any heavy champion had? Ezzard Charles...which is not to say he was the greatest heavyweight champion....he didn't have the physical strength , for one thing....for another he didn't take body punches as well as some of the others. i'm just saying for all around skills he has the lead. heavyweights usually are not the most skillfull fighters....and ezzard came up from middleweight where they are more to be found...and as a lightheavy he beat so many heavies bigger than he was.....before he became a heavy himself.

all around skills with the strength to go with them.....joe louis.

Charles was a great boxer--no doubt about it--but let's not forget Tunney when it comes to size-cahllenged (by today's standars) but hightly skilled heavyweight champs.

Oh, and whoever said Holyfield was a better combination puncher than Louis is just delusional...

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 13 Jul 2005, 00:57

...dan...i'm a great and long long time admirer of gene tunney...and i think he might have been a bit stronger than ezzard and maybe a better chin....though ezz had a good one. i just think ezzard was quicker and threw harder and faster combinations...and had a much better left hook....the latter just based on a skimpy film record and reading about him in articles by his contemporaries.

no question, though...tunney rates very high in the skill department.

dan1030 · Post by **dan1030** » 13 Jul 2005, 10:12

Jaclem:
You'll get no argument from me when it comes to Charles having some stronger points than Tunney--I think he's one of the most fluid punching/moving guys ever at heavy (and an absolute monster at light heavy!). Just wanted to get a word in on Tunney's behalf, too.
(gee, isn't it great when we can all get along like this in the forum?)

Holyfield vs. The All-Time Greats

sweet scientist