BoxRec

dempseyfire wrote:

bollox wrote: I would disagree Morrison has any significant speed advantage. Cooney had quick hands, especially with the hook, and any minor speed advantage Tommy has is negated by Gerry's height and reach advantage.

Morrison was probably more durable but that doesn't matter much here as both had crap chins. I think Morrison would get tagged hard first and because of that would most often lose, although I can see a Morrison-Ruddock ie Tommy lands the fight-ending hook while hurt outcome too, but forced to pick I say Cooney by early KO.

Probably the most reasonable analysis I've thus far read.

Rover wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Again, Williams was older than dirt. Hipp was limited, slow, and clumsy. Ruddock hadn't fought in a few years. One can argue Morrison never really had a win over a 'prime' heavyweight in his career. If that's coming over adversity, when the same criteria is used against Cooney, who lost to two prime fighters in Holmes and Spinks (I left Foreman out cus that wasn't 'prime'), then you have to factor in just how easy it was for Cooney to defeat the not so prime guys he faced versus Morrison's victories over not so prime guys, whom as you all pointed out he fought almost life and limb against. That makes them practically 'even' when it comes to resolve. At least Cooney had wins over Chaplin and Gregg who were still useful and in their prime. Morrison on the other hand, I can't seem to recall as having beaten a guy who wasn't either old, inactive, or had limitations in their skill set.

Thank you for that non-answer.
Ruddock hadn't fought in a little over 16 months, not "a few years."

He fought one time within a three year period - decisioning a journeyman, and you feel you've refuted his comment?

Williams was all of 33 when he lost to Morrison, hardly "older than dirt". And Tommy did beat Foreman handily prior to Old George's greatest triumph. Tommy had a better resume than Cooney and showed much more resolve during a longer career.

What's with all the Cooney threads? He was a historically insignificant puncher who accomplished nothing.

The Great John L wrote:Williams was all of 33 when he lost to Morrison, hardly "older than dirt". And Tommy did beat Foreman handily prior to Old George's greatest triumph. Tommy had a better resume than Cooney and showed much more resolve during a longer career.

What's with all the Cooney threads? He was a historically insignificant puncher who accomplished nothing.

Williams was far better than anything Cooney ever did. All of the threads were for my benefit. I didn't open them, but I have a fan.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Great John L wrote:Williams was all of 33 when he lost to Morrison, hardly "older than dirt". And Tommy did beat Foreman handily prior to Old George's greatest triumph. Tommy had a better resume than Cooney and showed much more resolve during a longer career.

What's with all the Cooney threads? He was a historically insignificant puncher who accomplished nothing.

Williams was far better than anything Cooney ever did. All of the threads were for my benefit. I didn't open them, but I have a fan.

I'm sure you have many.

The Great John L wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Great John L wrote:Williams was all of 33 when he lost to Morrison, hardly "older than dirt". And Tommy did beat Foreman handily prior to Old George's greatest triumph. Tommy had a better resume than Cooney and showed much more resolve during a longer career.

What's with all the Cooney threads? He was a historically insignificant puncher who accomplished nothing.

Williams was far better than anything Cooney ever did. All of the threads were for my benefit. I didn't open them, but I have a fan.

I'm sure you have many.

It comes with the territory of being a constant and somewhat abrasive poster. Though this is the first Cooney obsession I've encountered.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Great John L wrote:Williams was all of 33 when he lost to Morrison, hardly "older than dirt". And Tommy did beat Foreman handily prior to Old George's greatest triumph. Tommy had a better resume than Cooney and showed much more resolve during a longer career.

What's with all the Cooney threads? He was a historically insignificant puncher who accomplished nothing.

Williams was far better than anything Cooney ever did. All of the threads were for my benefit. I didn't open them, but I have a fan.

Wrong.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Great John L wrote:Williams was all of 33 when he lost to Morrison, hardly "older than dirt". And Tommy did beat Foreman handily prior to Old George's greatest triumph. Tommy had a better resume than Cooney and showed much more resolve during a longer career.

What's with all the Cooney threads? He was a historically insignificant puncher who accomplished nothing.

Williams was far better than anything Cooney ever did. All of the threads were for my benefit. I didn't open them, but I have a fan.

Wrong.

Ditto

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Ditto

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Ditto

Ignored.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:
Ditto

Ignored.

I remember watching Tommy Morrison's fight with Carl " The Truth" Williams on HBO back in '93. Williams surprisingly showed up in good form and while I thought it was going to be over with fast, especially after the first knockdown, he composed himself and gave the Duke a lot of trouble. Even Gil Clancy was at ringside and commented on how sharp William's jab still looked and the condition he was in.. But I had also been catching quite a few of the Truth's recent performances on ESPN and USA, such as the Jerry Jones and Kimmuel Odom bouts. He looked less than stellar in those outings. Morrison was persistent and successfully managed to conquer a game opponent. But taking 8 rounds, suffering two knockdowns and a near defeat against a man who was clearly past his prime, looked lack luster against journeyman and who had allergic reactions to left hooks ( Tommy's best weapon ), left me thinking that Morrison was nothing more than a high end club fighter. A prime Gerry Cooney from 1979-1982, with the size, power and early round tenacity that he had wouldn't have let Morrison off the hook once he had him in trouble. One thing about Cooney is that he didn't have trouble finishing opponents where as Tommy sometimes let them linger around just long enough to give him problems.

I grew up around the time Tommy was coming up and remember him facing the usual bums washed up guys then facing Yuri Vaughn a ranked Southpaw taxi driver from the brooklyn NY i was impressed with the fact that Tommy who never faced a lefty and was getting drilled with straight lefts shook it off and hooked him in the fith and that was it, next was Mercer big mistake for any puncher because dudes jaw is made of titanium and he knows how to fight well we know what happened he learned a lot from getting starched and coming back with wins over Art Tucker round 2 Joe Hipp 9 where Morrison suffered a broken jaw and Hipp cheek bone 9 then Foreman 12 W.B.O then got derailed bye a novice fighter named Michael Bent in 1 he claimed he did a shot of whiskey before the fight,Came back and got into a ugly fight with Carl the truth Williams he was knocked down in the early rounds twice came back in 8 out of gas to stop the fringe contender,Gerry Cooney went thru Ron Lyle Ken Norton gave Holmes a good fight then vanished accept for a pay check vs M Spinks George Foreman K.O 2 Tommy had a lot of guts and a lot of pro experience big heart glass jaw big left hook he was in a lot more wars and fought better opponents than Gerry its a tough call but i have Tommy bye 6 rounds because he had way more fight in him and wanted liked fight.Cooney on the other hand wanted a paycheck he had his moments against Holmes Spinks but blew them.Tommy was a tough son of a buck R.I.P Duke!

Cooney wins by tko in round 8 while trailing on points.

Gismo22 wrote:I grew up around the time Tommy was coming up and remember him facing the usual bums washed up guys then facing Yuri Vaughn a ranked Southpaw taxi driver from the brooklyn NY i was impressed with the fact that Tommy who never faced a lefty and was getting drilled with straight lefts shook it off and hooked him in the fith and that was it, next was Mercer big mistake for any puncher because dudes jaw is made of titanium and he knows how to fight well we know what happened he learned a lot from getting starched and coming back with wins over Art Tucker round 2 Joe Hipp 9 where Morrison suffered a broken jaw and Hipp cheek bone 9 then Foreman 12 W.B.O then got derailed bye a novice fighter named Michael Bent in 1 he claimed he did a shot of whiskey before the fight,Came back and got into a ugly fight with Carl the truth Williams he was knocked down in the early rounds twice came back in 8 out of gas to stop the fringe contender,Gerry Cooney went thru Ron Lyle Ken Norton gave Holmes a good fight then vanished accept for a pay check vs M Spinks George Foreman K.O 2 Tommy had a lot of guts and a lot of pro experience big heart glass jaw big left hook he was in a lot more wars and fought better opponents than Gerry its a tough call but i have Tommy bye 6 rounds because he had way more fight in him and wanted liked fight.Cooney on the other hand wanted a paycheck he had his moments against Holmes Spinks but blew them.Tommy was a tough son of a buck R.I.P Duke!

The Yuri Vaulin (not "Vaughn") bout was highly competitive, and fun to watch to this day!

Describing Vaulin as a "Southpaw taxi driver" is a bit misleading. He was a top Soviet amateur,
one of the first to come through and turn pro after the iron curtain dropped.

Vaulin was clinical, picking Morrison apart and well on his way to the upset when Morrison
landed a huge body shot that sapped Yuri's will. Priceless post-fight comments from both
Vaulin and his trainer.

Tantum wrote:Cooney was bigger, stronger, and tougher.

Morrison was faster and more skilled.

I suppose it would have been a good fight if they could have met at their peaks.

At their peaks Cooney wins easily...but Morrison would have trashed the post-Holmes Cooney... Gerry was an emotional vegetable following that loss... At his best versus washed up versions of Jimmy Young, Ron Lyle, and Ken Norton "Irish" Gerry Cooney was an extremely powerful Heavyweight with very crude skills... He was a naturally a very powerful puncher, but lacked the arm, leg, and torso strength to round out his frame.. He had a decent jab, very all good all around firepower, and a lethal left hook.. But punchers knock opponents out so quickly they need more fights to develop.. You have to get them tougher opponents and better boxers because they overpower everybody and they never learn how to box.. Cooney wasn't strong enough and needed strength training.. His legs were stems.. he never learned how to slip or duck punches well.. He had no idea how to clinch.. He didn't have a clue about sustaining a strong defense for 15 rounds.. White people got excited because he blew away Ken Norton in like 58 seconds - a guy who beat Ali at his best.. Norton didn't have a chin and was wide open for any big puncher.. Cooney was a big hooker.. That's was a mismatch that neither needed and didn't tell the story of where Cooney was as a boxer.

It's hard for people today to imagine the conquering hero hype that was invested in an unproven Heavyweight like Cooney. The letters, the crowds, the adulation, the sportswriters calling him "The Next Heavyweight Champion" like he couldn't miss.. All the interview requests. To say there was great expectations put on Cooney doesn't begin to address it. Holmes was the greatest Heavyweight up to his day, but people didn't like him. Larry was arrogant, and not in an entertaining or personable way. Sugar Ray Leonard predicted Cooney would beat Holmes. Eddie Futch said it was time for a new Heavyweight to take over. Ali was even impressed with Cooney. I said Cooney didn't have a chance in Hell, but I was noted for going against the grain. Cooney did very poorly, but the judges ignored that. Two of them had Cooney winning were it not for 3 point deductions for low blows. Cooney couldn't land anything legitimate on Holmes so he went low repeatedly. Normally you DQ somebody after that many flagrantly low blows instead of letting it get ridiculous.

IN Your Opinion,how could have Gerry Cooney improved himself ?

hard to pick but im going with morrison

I have to go with Morrison. Cooney had a hell of a lot of potential, but was too protected in his career. He never won a "gut check" fight whereas Morrison did. Now you can criticize Joe Hipp and an older Razor Ruddock all you want, however Morrison got tagged hard in those fights and came back to win. The only time Cooney ever got hit and won was against an older Jimmy Young who, as everyone here knows, was a very good boxer, but not a hard hitter. Cooney did look awesome against Young. In my opinion it was the best fight of his career, but if Morrison takes this one seriously, as I believe he would have, I see him taking Cooney out after he got hurt, very similar to what he did against Ruddock.

People read a lot into Cooney's potential. He had a lot of it and did okay against Larry Holmes for a couple of rounds. I remember seeing the fight closed circuit and never seriously thinking Cooney was going to win it, however looking back over 30 years I must say it speaks to his potential that he acquitted himself as well as did he against an all time great heavyweight.

Having said that, I believe Morrison would have bombed him out of there. Cooney was great against the old and feeble. The closest he ever came to a quality win was against an over the hill and light punching Jimmy Young. That was his best fight and he looked awesome in it. If he had followed that one with some bouts against the top lions of his time, then he might have been something. He could have also gotten his ass knocked out before he earned that big payday against Holmes. We will never know.

Morrison, for all of his faults, could get down and dirty against pretty good opposition and still come back and win. He didn't do it every time of course, everybody here remembers the Ray Mercer fight as well as the fiasco against Michael Bentt, but I could see him getting down and dirty with Cooney and winning. He was quicker and packed a hard punch. Also, if he took this fight seriously, as I am sure he would have, he wouldn't have just laid down for Cooney. Gerry would have had to have gone through a bit of a gut check to beat Morrison and that is something he never did once in his career. Sure, he could have landed that big left hook of his and knocked Morrison out. That would have been a possibility, but I just don't see it. Morrison would have banged him to the body and had a hard left hook of his own. Maybe we will get to see this fight in boxing heaven. I would be at ringside!

Jaclem wrote:...two phonies...but morrison was faster and i think he would have gotten off first and therefore scored a kayo.

Cooney was much faster than Morrison who had 2 left feet... Anyone like Michael Bentt would have been blown away by prime Cooney... Both Cooney and Morrsion were wide open and lacked defensive capabilities...but you could see Morrison's punches coming from across town.. Prime Cooney was a lot faster on offense and was able to out-jab Jimmy Young.. Cooney became a drug addict and alcoholic after the Holmes fight and destroyed himself.. And he was actually into drugs before that fight, it just accelerated from the expectations of his fans.. He never believed in himself and both men had deep psychosis.

Kalan wrote:

Jaclem wrote:...two phonies...but morrison was faster and i think he would have gotten off first and therefore scored a kayo.

Cooney was much faster than Morrison who had 2 left feet... Anyone like Michael Bentt would have been blown away by prime Cooney... Both Cooney and Morrsion were wide open and lacked defensive capabilities...but you could see Morrison's punches coming from across town.. Prime Cooney was a lot faster on offense and was able to out-jab Jimmy Young.. Cooney became a drug addict and alcoholic after the Holmes fight and destroyed himself.. And he was actually into drugs before that fight, it just accelerated from the expectations of his fans.. He never believed in himself and both men had deep psychosis.

I'd be happy to relieve you of any money you would be willing to put on Cooney if this hypothetical should ever come to pass in LaLa land or the hereafter. I just watched about a dozen of their mutual fights.
The ONLY reason Cooney beat some HOF"s is because in nearly every case, they were trotted out in front of him for just the purpose of building him up, at times when those future HOF"s were on there way to the glue factory. Cooney NEVER rose off the deck to win a fight, he NEVER rallied in any significant way, and Tommy was just as fast.....if not faster, and had a better ring mentality.
That jab deprived Jimmy Young was not the fella who could masterfully stick his head out of the ring like he was able to do in his glory days when only his clowning cost him a championship. Cripes that fight came after Norton sapped his spirit (in a fight he did well in) and two Occasio disasters. To give him credit for being present in that fight is like floating a loan to Puerto Rico today.

Something only you would advise.

Tommy would likely do what Foreman and Holmes did to Cooney, namely put his lights out. Though perhaps in far more clumsy fashion.....

Of course either of them could spark the other.....but in an ongoing contested fight, Morrison has a better set of keys, and paths to win this.

Kalan, you are hereby directed to go back to your observation port....you need to put in 2 to 3 hours of watching theses guys AGAIN....and keep watching them until you get this right.

We need you to pay attention and help make this forum great again.

You don't know what you're talking about BuzzBox... The Cooney who destroyed Norton was actually fairly quick, undefeated, and had some amateur success.. He outboxed Jimmy Young who was on the slide, but in his next fight Young compeletly dominated Gordon Racette, who had a puffed up record of 25-0 and no real ability, but did manage wins over Scott LaDoux and Rudi Lubbers.. Young was no glue factory candidate when he fought Cooney, winning his next 5 fights before he fell off the rails completely.. Cooney hadn't fought in more than a year and definitely didn't train well for Holmes.. But he did win several rounds of that fight and looked quick and dangerous if nothing else.. Tommy Morrison never looked like anything except a super slow, chinny, and wide open guy.

Cooney was a definite glue factory candidate when he fought Michael Spinks and George Foreman... He was so gone there are no words for it. So at their worst Gerry was a lot worse than Morrison.. At their best Cooney was much better.. Morrison never would have dealt with Young, Lyle, Norton, or Holmes as well.. I knew Cooney was going to lose badly to Holmes BTW.. He was looking bad and very weak in training.. It's like Muhammad Ali.. Are you going to fault Ali for the way he fought Holmes??? He wasn't home as they say.. Nobody was home.. It's not your age that's the problem. Can you still fight or not is the issue.

ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Cooney wins by tko in round 8 while trailing on points.

I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND ON THIS FIGHT I WATCHED A NEW DOCO ON TOMMY MORRISON AND I KNEW ABOUT HIS LEFT HOOK BUT I DID NOT REALISE HOW DEADLY IT WAS HE THINK IF TOMMY TRAINED PROPERLY AND EVEN IF COONEY DID LIKE WISE I THINK MORRISON CATCHS GERRY BEFORE ROUND 8 AND KO'S COONEY IN 5 THE DUKE WAS A BETTER FIGHTER THEN I FIRST THOUGHT WHAT A SAD STORY.