Marvin Hagler - the most overrated boxer of all time

[wolverine1]

The bottom line is that Hagler was the greatest Middle for 7 whole yrs. This cannot be achieved by being an average fighter. Saying this I personally think Marvin was too inconsistent to be considered the greatest or even top 5.....He really looked like a novice against Leonard, who was out of the ring for 3.5 yrs, Duran made him look extremely average, Duran was a blown up lightweight. I think the reason he is considered so great is his granite chin, the fact nobody could dent it. I however see Marvin losing every time to a fast slick mover with decent power and stamina and chin. Leonard coasted against him and I wouldn't put my money on MARVIN beating a prime Nunn or James Toney...he's too slow for those guys....

maybe thats why herol graham never got a title shot.

He actually had 3 titles shots.

Very closely outpointed by McCallum when Herol was probably at his peak.

Sparked by Jackson in a fight he was well on the way to winning.

Stopped by Brewer at 168 when he was at the end of his career.

Nice one, Collins.

[silkov]

maybe thats why herol graham never got a title shot.

I think Graham in 86 or '87 would have beaten the Hagler of that time...

Possibly, Pete. But that version of Herol Graham was comprehensivly beaten by Sumbu Kalambay. Yes, I've heard all the excuses for that loss but the fact still stands. I did think he did enough to win the rematch some years later though.

Kalambay is another story, I think he would have been a tough fight for Hagler too especially at that time... one of the most overlooked and underrated champs, as well as Graham, Kalambay beat sims, Dewitt, Mccallum and Barkley... when all were more or less in their primes.... 8)

[silkov]

I think Headhunter meant that Graham didn't get a title shot at Hagler... which he didn't...

[wolverine1]

I think Headhunter meant that Graham didn't get a title shot at Hagler... which he didn't...

Point taken with respect. But the question as to why Graham didn't really opens up a whole new can of worms, doesn't it?

Meaning, Hagler wasn't one to duck anybody, so why would he feel the need to duck Graham?

[TheRiverCityHippy]

I think Headhunter meant that Graham didn't get a title shot at Hagler... which he didn't...

i did, i guess i`ll have to make myself a little clearer

[wolverine1]

I think Headhunter meant that Graham didn't get a title shot at Hagler... which he didn't...

i did, i guess i`ll have to make myself a little clearer

OK, so make your point. I've stated that I don't see Hagler as the type who ducked anybody, so why didn't Graham gat a shot at Hagler? Hagler fought one and all in his climb to the top. Are you saying, once Hagler got to the top, he avoided Graham? In what manner?

In Hagler's climb, fighters saw him as the one to avoid. I can't see Hagler playing the same games that were played against him.

[Steve M]

Graham just had bad timing.It was 1986 by the time he was the top contender and by then Marvin was only interested in the Leonard payday.

On the Kalambay vs Barkley broadcast, Hagler actually talks about it and says he was going to fight Graham had Leonard not made his comeback.

[Collins2000]

I think Headhunter meant that Graham didn't get a title shot at Hagler... which he didn't...

i did, i guess i`ll have to make myself a little clearer

OK, so make your point. I've stated that I don't see Hagler as the type who ducked anybody, so why didn't Graham gat a shot at Hagler? Hagler fought one and all in his climb to the top. Are you saying, once Hagler got to the top, he avoided Graham? In what manner?

In Hagler's climb, fighters saw him as the one to avoid. I can't see Hagler playing the same games that were played against him.

I think someone touched on it earlier when they said Hagler was mainly interested in mega fights at that time. And Herol was basically unknown in the USA.

Plus, Graham wasn't even that popular in Britain at that time so it wasn't like they could have have built the fight up to some sort of mega fight. I lived in Sheffield and the fans never really turned out in force for him even though he had the longest unbeaten streak in Britain at one time.

The British fans had seen plenty of Hagler and we knew how good he was; all his fights were shown on ITV; and I don't recall any serious talk that Graham was being avoided. Particularly after he lost to Kalambay, good fighter though he was.

In fact, as I recall there was more fan interest in seeing Herol fight Sibbo in what would have been a UK/CW title fight and an eliminator, particularly around the time Sibson took the British title from Graham's stablemate Brian Anderson. Now, that's a fight I'd like to have seen.

[wolverine1]

I think too many fans make too much of the "fact" that Leonard was "out of the game" for 2-3years.

Does anyone know for a fact that Ray was out of shape, or out of training leading up to this super-fight? Or was Leonard like Hopkins, always in shape, ready for anything that might have come his way?

[bobbyd]

hagler would just barely make my top 10 list of the best middleweights.hearns fought a very reckless careless fight against him.he should've used his natural advantages(reach and height),plus his very underrated boxing skills.if they'd had a rematch hearns would've certainly won.probably by late round stoppage or by unanimous decision.juan roldan had hagler ready to lose a decision or maybe get a defending champ's draw.he thumbed roldan.i saw the fight and remember it quite well.that's how he was able to stop roldan.a thumb to the eye will stop the best of them.the 1st fight against prime antefermo was a draw.most thought hagler should've gotten the decision but it was close enough where antefermo deserved the draw.you gotta take the title from the champ as they say.
prime leonard would've won in a more convincing fashion.he was coming off a 3 year absence.here's my top 10 list of middleweights.

1.sugar ray robinson(early stage of the transition to middleweight)
2.marcel cerdan
3.carlos monzon
4.roy jones jr(while he was middleweight)
5.bernard hopkins
6.thomas hearns
7.jake lamotta
8.rocky graziano
9.tony zale
10.marvin hagler

[Collins2000]

hagler would just barely make my top 10 list of the best middleweights.hearns fought a very reckless careless fight against him.he should've used his natural advantages(reach and height),plus his very underrated boxing skills.if they'd had a rematch hearns would've certainly won.probably by late round stoppage or by unanimous decision.juan roldan had hagler ready to lose a decision or maybe get a defending champ's draw.he thumbed roldan.i saw the fight and remember it quite well.that's how he was able to stop roldan.a thumb to the eye will stop the best of them.the 1st fight against prime antefermo was a draw.most thought hagler should've gotten the decision but it was close enough where antefermo deserved the draw.you gotta take the title from the champ as they say.
prime leonard would've won in a more convincing fashion.he was coming off a 3 year absence.here's my top 10 list of middleweights.

1.sugar ray robinson(early stage of the transition to middleweight)
2.marcel cerdan
3.carlos monzon
4.roy jones jr(while he was middleweight)
5.bernard hopkins
6.thomas hearns
7.jake lamotta
8.rocky graziano
9.tony zale
10.marvin hagler

If, if, if. If my aunty had bollocks, she'd be my uncle.

So, you have a bloke at #10 even after he thrashed the bloke at #6 and the bloke at #6 beat NO ONE of any note at 160 and also got knocked the fornicate out by a relative nobody at 160????

I'll have an ounce of whatever you're smoking bobby.

[wolverine1]

hagler would just barely make my top 10 list of the best middleweights.hearns fought a very reckless careless fight against him.he should've used his natural advantages(reach and height),plus his very underrated boxing skills.if they'd had a rematch hearns would've certainly won.probably by late round stoppage or by unanimous decision.juan roldan had hagler ready to lose a decision or maybe get a defending champ's draw.he thumbed roldan.i saw the fight and remember it quite well.that's how he was able to stop roldan.a thumb to the eye will stop the best of them.the 1st fight against prime antefermo was a draw.most thought hagler should've gotten the decision but it was close enough where antefermo deserved the draw.you gotta take the title from the champ as they say.
prime leonard would've won in a more convincing fashion.he was coming off a 3 year absence.here's my top 10 list of middleweights.

1.sugar ray robinson(early stage of the transition to middleweight)
2.marcel cerdan
3.carlos monzon
4.roy jones jr(while he was middleweight)
5.bernard hopkins
6.thomas hearns
7.jake lamotta
8.rocky graziano
9.tony zale
10.marvin hagler

And if Hearns had used his reach like he should have, Leonard never would have gotten to him, now would he.

[Collins2000]

I think too many fans make too much of the "fact" that Leonard was "out of the game" for 2-3years.

Does anyone know for a fact that Ray was out of shape, or out of training leading up to this super-fight? Or was Leonard like Hopkins, always in shape, ready for anything that might have come his way?

Well it is a fact, isn't it? He may have been training, even sparring but there is nothing like real fighting as any of them will tell you.

I expect he kept in shape. Look at him now on that reality show and he still looks in great nick so I doubt he let himself go.

It's a great tribute to his ability that he was able to come back and beat, clearly in my opinion, an excellent champion like Marvin.

Sure, it was obvious from the Mugabi fight that Hagler was on the decline but waiting till he was sure of that was just another intelligent move by Leonard.

[wolverine1]

I think too many fans make too much of the "fact" that Leonard was "out of the game" for 2-3years.

Does anyone know for a fact that Ray was out of shape, or out of training leading up to this super-fight? Or was Leonard like Hopkins, always in shape, ready for anything that might have come his way?

Well it is a fact, isn't it? He may have been training, even sparring but there is nothing like real fighting as any of them will tell you.

I expect he kept in shape. Look at him now on that reality show and he still looks in great nick so I doubt he let himself go.

It's a great tribute to his ability that he was able to come back and beat, clearly in my opinion, an excellent champion like Marvin.

Sure, it was obvious from the Mugabi fight that Hagler was on the decline but waiting till he was sure of that was just another intelligent move by Leonard.

Now, I still have Hagler winning by two rounds.

[Collins2000]

I think too many fans make too much of the "fact" that Leonard was "out of the game" for 2-3years.

Does anyone know for a fact that Ray was out of shape, or out of training leading up to this super-fight? Or was Leonard like Hopkins, always in shape, ready for anything that might have come his way?

Well it is a fact, isn't it? He may have been training, even sparring but there is nothing like real fighting as any of them will tell you.

I expect he kept in shape. Look at him now on that reality show and he still looks in great nick so I doubt he let himself go.

It's a great tribute to his ability that he was able to come back and beat, clearly in my opinion, an excellent champion like Marvin.

Sure, it was obvious from the Mugabi fight that Hagler was on the decline but waiting till he was sure of that was just another intelligent move by Leonard.

Now, I still have Hagler winning by two rounds.

That may be so but I watch it every few years and Hagler basically gets a boxing lesson for the first 7 rounds in my opinion and has far too much leeway to make up. Add to that, the fact that I have Leonard winning one of the later rounds too then I have Leonard winning 8 rounds to 4. And I was a big Hagler fan too. I wanted Marvin to knock him into next week.

[wolverine1]

Well it is a fact, isn't it? He may have been training, even sparring but there is nothing like real fighting as any of them will tell you.

I expect he kept in shape. Look at him now on that reality show and he still looks in great nick so I doubt he let himself go.

It's a great tribute to his ability that he was able to come back and beat, clearly in my opinion, an excellent champion like Marvin.

Sure, it was obvious from the Mugabi fight that Hagler was on the decline but waiting till he was sure of that was just another intelligent move by Leonard.

Now, I still have Hagler winning by two rounds.

That may be so but I watch it every few years and Hagler basically gets a boxing lesson for the first 7 rounds in my opinion and has far too much leeway to make up. Add to that, the fact that I have Leonard winning one of the later rounds too then I have Leonard winning 8 rounds to 4. And I was a big Hagler fan too. I wanted Marvin to knock him into next week.

Collins, taking your perspective, there are those who could make a case for Leonard. But shoe-shine punches do not win a fight.

[Collins2000]

Now, I still have Hagler winning by two rounds.

That may be so but I watch it every few years and Hagler basically gets a boxing lesson for the first 7 rounds in my opinion and has far too much leeway to make up. Add to that, the fact that I have Leonard winning one of the later rounds too then I have Leonard winning 8 rounds to 4. And I was a big Hagler fan too. I wanted Marvin to knock him into next week.

Collins, taking your perspective, there are those who could make a case for Leonard. But shoe-shine punches do not win a fight.

They certainly do if the other lad is just swinging and missing...

[silkov]

Now, I still have Hagler winning by two rounds.

That may be so but I watch it every few years and Hagler basically gets a boxing lesson for the first 7 rounds in my opinion and has far too much leeway to make up. Add to that, the fact that I have Leonard winning one of the later rounds too then I have Leonard winning 8 rounds to 4. And I was a big Hagler fan too. I wanted Marvin to knock him into next week.

Collins, taking your perspective, there are those who could make a case for Leonard. But shoe-shine punches do not win a fight.

Leonard actually shook up Hagler a few times during the fight, he landed the more punches and the better punches also imo...

[Syntax Error]

power but no skill

Very bold statement.

You need to watch Hagler's early career, before he won the title so see his skills at their best.

The funny thing is, Marvin was a little past it, when he was champ. There was always a question mark about his age & he lost a lot of speed after 1983.

[KOJOE90]

I think too many fans make too much of the "fact" that Leonard was "out of the game" for 2-3years.

Does anyone know for a fact that Ray was out of shape, or out of training leading up to this super-fight? Or was Leonard like Hopkins, always in shape, ready for anything that might have come his way?

Leonard had a very long training camp for the Hagler fight it came to light after the fight.

After the Hagler fight it was also revealed that Leonard had had a number of full 12 round fights behind closed doors. These were officially sparring sessions, but with a few major differences. There were no headgaurds used, small gloves and the sparring partners were told to try there best to win over the full 12 rounds. They were basically REAL fights.

Two of the sparring were Quincy Taylor and Anthony Fletcher (who was a southpaw). I heard thet Taylor floored leonard during one of these 'fights'.

[silkov]

I think too many fans make too much of the "fact" that Leonard was "out of the game" for 2-3years.

Does anyone know for a fact that Ray was out of shape, or out of training leading up to this super-fight? Or was Leonard like Hopkins, always in shape, ready for anything that might have come his way?

Leonard had a very long training camp for the Hagler fight it came to light after the fight.

After the Hagler fight it was also revealed that Leonard had had a number of full 12 round fights behind closed doors. These were officially sparring sessions, but with a few major differences. There were no headgaurds used, small gloves and the sparring partners were told to try there best to win over the full 12 rounds. They were basically REAL fights.

Two of the sparring were Quincy Taylor and Anthony Fletcher (who was a southpaw). I heard thet Taylor floored leonard during one of these 'fights'.

wasn't Fletcher a lightweight though?... are you sure it wasn't Frank Fletcher that Leonard 'sparred' with?.
I'm sure these 'sparring sessions' are the reason why Leonard looked so sharp against Hagler... in fact it was Hagler who looed rustier than Leonard. Also interesting that Leonard never looked quite as good again in his fights after Hagler.....

[KOJOE90]

wasn't Fletcher a lightweight though?... are you sure it wasn't Frank Fletcher that Leonard 'sparred' with?.
I'm sure these 'sparring sessions' are the reason why Leonard looked so sharp against Hagler... in fact it was Hagler who looed rustier than Leonard. Also interesting that Leonard never looked quite as good again in his fights after Hagler.....

I am pretty sure it was Anthony who sparred Leonard, and yes he was a Lightweight, maybe he was used for his Southpaw stance and speed?

Big brother Frank Fletcher (I think) sparred with Hagler for the Mugabi fight. He broke Haglers nose which caused a delay to the fight of a few months.

[silkov]

wasn't Fletcher a lightweight though?... are you sure it wasn't Frank Fletcher that Leonard 'sparred' with?.
I'm sure these 'sparring sessions' are the reason why Leonard looked so sharp against Hagler... in fact it was Hagler who looed rustier than Leonard. Also interesting that Leonard never looked quite as good again in his fights after Hagler.....

I am pretty sure it was Anthony who sparred Leonard, and yes he was a Lightweight, maybe he was used for his Southpaw stance and speed?

Big brother Frank Fletcher (I think) sparred with Hagler for the Mugabi fight. He broke Haglers nose which caused a delay to the fight of a few months.

I can see why Leonard would want to spar with a fast fighter like Anthony who was a very slick fighter... rather unlike his brother! :roll

[KOJOE90]

1.sugar ray robinson(early stage of the transition to middleweight)
2.marcel cerdan
3.carlos monzon
4.roy jones jr(while he was middleweight)
5.bernard hopkins
6.thomas hearns
7.jake lamotta
8.rocky graziano
9.tony zale
10.marvin hagler

How can you rate Hearns above Hagler when Hagler beat Hearns at Middleweight. Also whats your reason for not rating Greb?

[silkov]

1.sugar ray robinson(early stage of the transition to middleweight)
2.marcel cerdan
3.carlos monzon
4.roy jones jr(while he was middleweight)
5.bernard hopkins
6.thomas hearns
7.jake lamotta
8.rocky graziano
9.tony zale
10.marvin hagler

How can you rate Hearns above Hagler when Hagler beat Hearns at Middleweight. Also whats your reason for not rating Greb?

And wheres Ketchel and Walker? ... Jones is not top 10 either... who did he beat at 160?.... :x