DoubleM wrote:Nero3000 wrote:
1. What cetegory did Robinson not have a 10 in?
2. Defense? Prime for prime, Robinson was superior. Unfortunately we don't have many films of the prime, WELERWEIGHT Robinson, just newspaper and eyewitness accounts. All of which point to Robinson's great defensive ability. Not sure how you can say Marvin has him here.
3. Uppercuts? Again, how do you know Marvin has him here? He might, he might not. Both were great at it. Score both a 10.
4. Durability??? You're kidding right? Both were 10s, but don't forget Robinson had over twice as many fights and was never stopped
5. Discipline? Again, what do you base this on?
And what about adaptability? Marvin had a very difficult time when things didn't go according to plan(see Antuofermo, Duran, Roldan, etc.). He could adapt, yes, but he didn't like to, preferring to see a game plan taken to it's end. It almost cost him vs. Duran. Luckily he found out that the judges were gonna rob him and he kicked it into high gear.
He never was comfortable with it, though. Leonard and Robinson were. They could change tactics in the middle of a fight flawlessly.
Robinson didn't have a ten in power, speed, defense, durability, stamina, among other things. Maybe eights and nines, but let's not go overboard. Rodrigo Valdez would score a ten in power. Meldrick Taylor would score a ten in speed. Pernell Whitaker would score a ten in defense. Marvelous Marvin Hagler would score a ten in durability. Henry Armstrong would score a ten in stamina. See where I'm going? A ten is the absolute best of the best.
Robinson's defense was not great. Good, yes. I've seen him outjabbed a few times, and get caught. As a guy gets older, it's not usually his skills that go, but his speed, durability, power, stamina, the more physical things. Check out Foreman, Louis, Duran, these guys carried their skills, but not the rest of it.
I'm confident saying Hagler had the better uppercuts. I've seen quite a lot of Robinson, and he was a fabulous combination puncher, but he wasn't a great uppercut puncher. He certainly wasn't bad with them, but Hagler was better. He used them a lot on the inside, as a lead, whatever. He dissected quite a few guys with them. Cabrera, Obelmejias, Hamsho, Sibson, Briscoe, you name it.
No, I'm not kidding when I say Hagler was more durable. Robinson may have had more fights... But he was down a few times, and hurt too. He had a great chin, but not like Hagler's. Robinson never faced the same crunching hitters as Hagler did. Graziano landed his right hand once, and floored Robinson - I will admit I think he just caught Robinson off balance and by surprise, but still. Hagler faced probably the hardest hitting collection of middleweights of any champion, and was never legitimately put down. Hearns, Mugabi, Hart - these are guys who would score a ten in power, and all of them had fast hands to go with it. They all hit Hagler flush on the jaw, I have the films to prove it - and they never budged him. He gave a little wobble when Hearns hit him with a ten punch combination, but fired right back, and the next thing you hear is "and a good left by Hagler." Briscoe, Roldan, Obelmejias, Cabrera, these guys all hit very hard. In a tier slightly below, you have Scypion, Sibson, Watts, Lee and more... Hagler was in there with some serious firepower. I've even seen Hagler take hard low blows and not react. Even headbutts - no reaction. Mustafa Hamsho, that dirty little fornicator, performed a diving headbutt on Hagler, but the champion didn't move.
Hagler was definitely more disciplined. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Hagler's training regime... He used to call his training camp 'jail'. No women, no alcohol, no luxuries - he used to isolate himself away from everything but seagulls and his team. He trained as hard as anybody, and treated every fight as though it was a war. The same can't be said about Robinson.
Adaptability... Here's something people like to pick Hagler up on. It's not true that he couldn't adapt though - check out the Obelmejias fights... Hagler sees he isn't getting anywhere by boxing the taller man, so he takes the fight to him and swarms all over the challenger. Against Duran, it wasn't Hagler's fault the fight was close (though not as close as is sometimes perceived - the judges were kind to Duran) - it was the Petronellis. You can hear them in the fight telling Hagler to stay at range and box, but the clever Duran just wouldn't play ball. But still, the Petronellis continued to instruct Hagler to box.
The Leonard fight, Hagler adapted. Admittedly, he was far past his prime by this point, and anybody who has followed his career with agree with me when I say that. But Hagler became more aggressive and made the fight closer when he saw he wasn't having success trying to box Leonard.
The first Antuofermo fight isn't a black mark on Hagler's record - or rather it is, but it shouldn't be. Hagler won that fight fair and square, and any reasonable judge would have scored that fight for him by a clear margin. Antuofermo was just difficult - a fast-paced fighter with a granite chin and an awkward and dirty style... He'd have given anyone fits. The same with Roldan - Hagler wasn't required to adapt. He wouldn't have done any better by boxing or brawling, it was just Roldan, he was awkward.
