BoxRec

Decagon wrote:Tyson was fucked up before he went to prison. He just had a bunch of people helping him hide the fucked-up side.

100% Dec

It was going on for a long long time.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

silkov wrote:Lewis had far more heart and character than Tyson... he avenged both his defeats, we know what happened when Tyson tried to avenge his defaet to Holyfield don't we. The fact that Tyson never avenged any of his defeats tells us a lot about his mental make up and the flaws that kept him from being a great champion. Lewis may have had the waeker chin but he had the stronger heart and character and therefore was the better fighter overall imo....

thats a load of bias, tyson was far past his prime vs holyfield and coming off a 4 year layofff. you know how people get fucked up in prison, tyson went coocoo! tyson never got the chance to avenge his defeat of douglas because he went to jail. get it?

u critisize tyson way too much for wut happened post layoff

Tyson went into their fight a favourite. He didn't look 'far' past his prime in the fights leading up to this one, although Holyfield most certianly did. Tyson never looked as good after the Holyfield fights because he was broken by Evander.

Caulk Rocket wrote:

Arsenal wrote:AGREED! Anytime, anyplace Holyfield always wins!

It took him 11 rounds to take down the ear chomper. I doubt you're right. You just hate Tyson, which has no affect on the hypothetical outcome of a prime Tyson v. Holyfield fight anyway. I like Evander, too. I like many many HW champs of the past, I just cannot stand Lennox Lewis.

I agree, Prime Holy vs Prime Tyson will be a very tough fight. Absolutley not a chance in hell does Holy win EVERY time like Arsenal suggests. Hell it took Holyfield 11 rounds to stop Tyson anyway as you stated.

What it comes down to is hardcore Tysonites & hardcore Tyson-haters and you guys will never agree gusy liek brocktonblockbuster dont have much credibility because they think prime Tyson could slay a t-rex.

So it comes down to guys like me who have no bias either way. Holyfield beat Tyson because he once again showed a mass of balls & heart and willingness to dig deep when things got tough. Tyson never showed these qualities through his whole career and his last fights quit like a dog which add further faecal matter to his 'legacy'.

Tyson was not 'coming off a 4 year layoff' he did his three yrs in Indiana, came out went staright to training and by the time he fought Holyfield had been active for over a year with FOUR fights. In that same space of time Holyfield had TWO fights, one of which was a knockout loss to Bowe.

Tyson was coming in with all the momentum but Holyfield exposed him as a guy without the heart for a fight, kicked his booty, then humiliated him completely in the rematch where Tyson got himself DQd rather than take his beating like a man.

overhand_right wrote:What it comes down to is hardcore Tysonites & hardcore Tyson-haters and you guys will never agree gusy liek brocktonblockbuster dont have much credibility because they think prime Tyson could slay a t-rex.

So it comes down to guys like me who have no bias either way. Holyfield beat Tyson because he once again showed a mass of balls & heart and willingness to dig deep when things got tough. Tyson never showed these qualities through his whole career and his last fights quit like a dog which add further faecal matter to his 'legacy'.

Tyson was not 'coming off a 4 year layoff' he did his three yrs in Indiana, came out went staright to training and by the time he fought Holyfield had been active for over a year with FOUR fights. In that same space of time Holyfield had TWO fights, one of which was a knockout loss to Bowe.

Tyson was coming in with all the momentum but Holyfield exposed him as a guy without the heart for a fight, kicked his booty, then humiliated him completely in the rematch where Tyson got himself DQd rather than take his beating like a man.

overhandright,


when did i ever say tyson was unbeatable in his prime? i pick certain greats to beat mike tyson. evander is not one of them.



ezzard my friend,


how did tyson look in peak form in his prior fights? u mean the way seldon went down without tyson hitting him? or how bout the way frank bruno was so scared he looked like he was going to piss his pants? fact is, these guys were a bunch of B level guys who tyson pounded on and some of these guys didnt put up much of a fight, so how did tyson look in peak form?

what A level opponent who came to fight did tyson beat right before he fought evander?


tyson was clearly more past his prime than evander when they fought, he doesnt look as good on film at all.

You can argue with the Tyson fans all night and they won't see reality. Holyfield no matter when they fought would always have Tyson's number.
Its just one of them examples of two fighters where no matter when or where they fought one would always win. Tyson was perfect for Holyfield. Holyfield was just too tough. When Tyson fought big guys who weren't scared and were half decent he went the distance or was beaten. Holyfield didn't have the size but he had the attributes needed to beat Tyson: stick in there for the first 4/5 rds whilst Tyson is dangerous and throws the kitchen sink at you then come back at him and he'll be vunerable in the later rounds. I think the Tyson addicts seem to forget something about that fight. Tyson was a massive favorite and it is only the guys who know their boxing who had Holyfield to win. I bet the Tyson fans on here fought he would blow Holyfield away despite him being "past his prime".

Tyson would have beaten all of them comfortably, providing he was focused.

Only Witherspoon would have given him a hard fight. His overhand Right would have given Tyson nightmares.

After all that, Ruddock would have been a breeze, as he is massively overrated.

Holyfield would have beaten him at any time from 1988 onwards.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:overhandright,


when did i ever say tyson was unbeatable in his prime? i pick certain greats to beat mike tyson. evander is not one of them.



ezzard my friend,


how did tyson look in peak form in his prior fights? u mean the way seldon went down without tyson hitting him? or how bout the way frank bruno was so scared he looked like he was going to piss his pants? fact is, these guys were a bunch of B level guys who tyson pounded on and some of these guys didnt put up much of a fight, so how did tyson look in peak form?

what A level opponent who came to fight did tyson beat right before he fought evander?


tyson was clearly more past his prime than evander when they fought, he doesnt look as good on film at all.

BB

You mis-read me. Tyson was not peak and neither was Holyfield. Holy was coming off a KO loss and some very hard fights. He looked worn and past it. Tyson was past his prime but not by as much as Holyfield. He was gaining momentum with his fights and looked to be ready to dominate the division again. In the fights themselves Tyson looked more shot becasue he got beat up badly. He simply could not live with his opponent. After that he was never the same. I think that Evander crushed him psychologically.

Logically I believe Holy was further past his peak than Mike. I'm willing to accept that they were roughly at the same place in terms of physical wear and tear. What I can't accept is that somehow this fight doesn't count.

My rationale for Holyfield being superior is that he had the three pre-requisites for beating Tyson at any point in his career:

1) Great punch resistance
2) A huge heart
3) Unfaltering self-belief

Holyfield's probelms were with guys who could keep him on the outside, generally men with excellent jabs which is why old-timers like Holmes and Foreman made him look bad, why Bowe was such a terror to him and why Lewis could handle him. Even so, I'd say Holy was past his peak when he beat Bowe but he was getting himself into top condition and making himself competitive.

I know we've had this debate before and I've taken your points on board regarding Tyson's career as a whole. I promise myself not to keep entering these Tyson threads because it seems that everytime there's a new thread the parameters are narrowed and narrowed to create a scenario in which we all have to agree that Tyson was thr greatest ever...

Mike was a breath of fresh air in the 1980s. He looked devestating but this 'peak' argument tries to brush under the carpet the faults that were always there beneath the hype and the initimidation. I think Mike, Liston and Foreman got so used to using their intimidation that they started to over rely on it.

Great post Ezzy!

Ezzard wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:overhandright,


when did i ever say tyson was unbeatable in his prime? i pick certain greats to beat mike tyson. evander is not one of them.



ezzard my friend,


how did tyson look in peak form in his prior fights? u mean the way seldon went down without tyson hitting him? or how bout the way frank bruno was so scared he looked like he was going to piss his pants? fact is, these guys were a bunch of B level guys who tyson pounded on and some of these guys didnt put up much of a fight, so how did tyson look in peak form?

what A level opponent who came to fight did tyson beat right before he fought evander?


tyson was clearly more past his prime than evander when they fought, he doesnt look as good on film at all.

BB

You mis-read me. Tyson was not peak and neither was Holyfield. Holy was coming off a KO loss and some very hard fights. He looked worn and past it. Tyson was past his prime but not by as much as Holyfield. He was gaining momentum with his fights and looked to be ready to dominate the division again. In the fights themselves Tyson looked more shot becasue he got beat up badly. He simply could not live with his opponent. After that he was never the same. I think that Evander crushed him psychologically.

Logically I believe Holy was further past his peak than Mike. I'm willing to accept that they were roughly at the same place in terms of physical wear and tear. What I can't accept is that somehow this fight doesn't count.

My rationale for Holyfield being superior is that he had the three pre-requisites for beating Tyson at any point in his career:

1) Great punch resistance
2) A huge heart
3) Unfaltering self-belief

Holyfield's probelms were with guys who could keep him on the outside, generally men with excellent jabs which is why old-timers like Holmes and Foreman made him look bad, why Bowe was such a terror to him and why Lewis could handle him. Even so, I'd say Holy was past his peak when he beat Bowe but he was getting himself into top condition and making himself competitive.

I know we've had this debate before and I've taken your points on board regarding Tyson's career as a whole. I promise myself not to keep entering these Tyson threads because it seems that everytime there's a new thread the parameters are narrowed and narrowed to create a scenario in which we all have to agree that Tyson was thr greatest ever...

Mike was a breath of fresh air in the 1980s. He looked devestating but this 'peak' argument tries to brush under the carpet the faults that were always there beneath the hype and the initimidation. I think Mike, Liston and Foreman got so used to using their intimidation that they started to over rely on it.

Excellent analysis; couldn't put it better myself.

Caulk Rocket wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:overhandright,


when did i ever say tyson was unbeatable in his prime? i pick certain greats to beat mike tyson. evander is not one of them.



ezzard my friend,


how did tyson look in peak form in his prior fights? u mean the way seldon went down without tyson hitting him? or how bout the way frank bruno was so scared he looked like he was going to piss his pants? fact is, these guys were a bunch of B level guys who tyson pounded on and some of these guys didnt put up much of a fight, so how did tyson look in peak form?

what A level opponent who came to fight did tyson beat right before he fought evander?


tyson was clearly more past his prime than evander when they fought, he doesnt look as good on film at all.

BB

You mis-read me. Tyson was not peak and neither was Holyfield. Holy was coming off a KO loss and some very hard fights. He looked worn and past it. Tyson was past his prime but not by as much as Holyfield. He was gaining momentum with his fights and looked to be ready to dominate the division again. In the fights themselves Tyson looked more shot becasue he got beat up badly. He simply could not live with his opponent. After that he was never the same. I think that Evander crushed him psychologically.

Logically I believe Holy was further past his peak than Mike. I'm willing to accept that they were roughly at the same place in terms of physical wear and tear. What I can't accept is that somehow this fight doesn't count.

My rationale for Holyfield being superior is that he had the three pre-requisites for beating Tyson at any point in his career:

1) Great punch resistance
2) A huge heart
3) Unfaltering self-belief

Holyfield's probelms were with guys who could keep him on the outside, generally men with excellent jabs which is why old-timers like Holmes and Foreman made him look bad, why Bowe was such a terror to him and why Lewis could handle him. Even so, I'd say Holy was past his peak when he beat Bowe but he was getting himself into top condition and making himself competitive.

I know we've had this debate before and I've taken your points on board regarding Tyson's career as a whole. I promise myself not to keep entering these Tyson threads because it seems that everytime there's a new thread the parameters are narrowed and narrowed to create a scenario in which we all have to agree that Tyson was thr greatest ever...

Mike was a breath of fresh air in the 1980s. He looked devestating but this 'peak' argument tries to brush under the carpet the faults that were always there beneath the hype and the initimidation. I think Mike, Liston and Foreman got so used to using their intimidation that they started to over rely on it.

Holyfield was TKO'd. Tyson was coming out of prison and had a KO loss. None of us here will ever know what prison is like, we don't know what it would do to our minds. To say Holyfield was just as broken down as Tyson during fight is retarded. Tyson bit his fornicating ear off, he was mentally deranged and not fit to fight. He should have retired after his loss to Holyfield. Holyfield was more mature, and still in his prime.

No one is arguing Tyson is the greatest ever. People keep blowing things out of proportion and taking things out of context. The HW division has been weak for a long time. I've admitted long ago part of that weakness was Tyson and his antics, and his lack of ability to not keep himself together for the good of the division. But, Lewis was part of that too, he cherry picked opponents, got put to sleep by chumps, and was way too arrogant for his own good. Just because Lewis was able to keep the titles for quite a while doesn't make him great in my opinion, that's lowest common denominator mentality. Just because he doesn't get sent to prison, bites a dude's ear off, and is so irresponsible that he can't prepare himself for a fight like Tyson had done, doesn't make him great. Though, prime Tyson was more entertaining, and physically dominant compared to Lewis. The real match is Tyson v. Holyfield. I'm a fan of them both.

Limaboxing does. Can't wait to see the aftermath when he gets out.

LOL Lewis was really cherry picking opponents fighting #1 contenders like Tua, Grant, Klitschko as well as Ruddock & Golota & Butler when nobody wanted to fight them oh and lets not forget squeezing in legends like Tyson & Holyfield.

Anyone who argues Lewis was the one cherry picking opponents immediately loses credibility. Just take a look at Tysons record and tell me the last time he fought the #1 contender...? Youll have to go back over a DECADE.

Decagon wrote:....Tyson was always afraid of Holyfield.

Totally and utterly correct!

Caulk Rocket wrote:

overhand_right wrote:LOL Lewis was really cherry picking opponents fighting #1 contenders like Tua, Grant, Klitschko as well as Ruddock & Golota & Butler when nobody wanted to fight them oh and lets not forget squeezing in legends like Tyson & Holyfield.

Anyone who argues Lewis was the one cherry picking opponents immediately loses credibility. Just take a look at Tysons record and tell me the last time he fought the #1 contender...? Youll have to go back over a DECADE.

Ruddock was murdered by Tyson already. Tua was on his way down, and Lewis retired after Vitali wanted a rematch. Tua, Butler, Grant are no better than Berbick, Spinks and old Holmes. You're using Golota as part of your argument? Are you insane?

Yes, you have to go back over a decade to find a good Tyson opponent, because that's when his PRIME was. We're talking PRIME Tyson here, way to point out the obvious.

Ruddock murdered by Tyson? The videotape, scorecards and press coverage of the time suggest Tyson won a close & tough decision over Ruddock in a rematch that had to be held because the original contest was stopped bizarrely by DK-friendly ref Richard Steele. Ruddock came back to easily mangle Greg Page & Phil Jackson before LL bombed him out conclusively in 2 easy rds.

Tua on his way down? In your mind mate, nobody was saying that at the time. Tua was on a winning streak with only 1 split decision loss in his whole career. Yeah mate, he was all used up. Haha.

Golota in 1997 was a feared heavyweight nobody wanted to fight who had destroyed Bowes career who you dont realise was widely considered top dog at the time. You are looking at the 37 yr old discredited joke Golota.

Great post Overhand. You'll have probably realised that Caulk and Razor know f**k all so don't even bother with them.

Arsenal wrote:Great post Overhand. You'll have probably realised that Caulk and Razor know f**k all so don't even bother with them.

Just because Caulk and I disagree with your Lewis loving agenda?

If its any British HW you should praise, its Bruno as Bruno has proved he has heart and is a very nice man outside of the ring. Bugner and Cooper have also proven their fighting heart. You may say Bruno always gets stunned when hit by a big punch, but at least he has never been startched cold like glass chin Lewis. Heck Bruno took 7 or 8 flush Bonecrusher left and rights before he fell....and Bruno STILL got up! Lewis took one McCall and one Rahman punch...and hes on the floor. Not to mention Lewis SMILING and mocking Rahman just before he was KTFO.

RazorKO wrote:

Arsenal wrote:Great post Overhand. You'll have probably realised that Caulk and Razor know f**k all so don't even bother with them.

Just because Caulk and I disagree with your Lewis loving agenda?

If its any British HW you should praise, its Bruno as Bruno has proved he has heart and is a very nice man outside of the ring. Bugner and Cooper have also proven their fighting heart. You may say Bruno always gets stunned when hit by a big punch, but at least he has never been startched cold like glass chin Lewis. Heck Bruno took 7 or 8 flush Bonecrusher left and rights before he fell....and Bruno STILL got up! Lewis took one McCall and one Rahman punch...and hes on the floor. Not to mention Lewis SMILING and mocking Rahman just before he was KTFO.

Actually Lewis was hurt with a right hand by Rahman about 30 seconds before Rahman caught him with the now famous shotgun cross. So it really wasn't one shot that KO'd him.

Bruno a nice guy out the ring? Well didn't his wife get a restraing order?

Arsenal wrote:Bruno a nice guy out the ring? Well didn't his wife get a restraing order?

Yes but Bruno was suffering with mental problems at the time (Bi-Polar disorder?) for which he is now on medication for and on the road to recovery.

He is by all accounts a really nice guy, just suffered with some mental ill health that could happen to anyone.

Yes but prior to that he wasn't nice. The persona he had in the ring was totally different to the one out of it. But as you say he was suffering mental illness.

Witherspoon :x That's the main name I would have wanted to see :x Why didn't it happen? :x Tyson's camp a bit too wary of The Spoon , were they? :x :x :x

Well, If Tysons regin had've continued, Lewis wouldn't have fought him or been the "undisputed world champion"...

Tyson would've knocked him 3 ways into next week.

bollox wrote:Witherspoon :x That's the main name I would have wanted to see :x Why didn't it happen? :x Tyson's camp a bit too wary of The Spoon , were they? :x :x :x

otherway around buddy. spoon wanted no part of tyson after seeing tyson demolish the best 80s heavyweights who spoon struggled or lost too.


after seeing tyson demolish pinklon thomas(a man who beat spoon) in 6 rounds, spoon wanted no part of tyson.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

bollox wrote:Witherspoon :x That's the main name I would have wanted to see :x Why didn't it happen? :x Tyson's camp a bit too wary of The Spoon , were they? :x :x :x

otherway around buddy. spoon wanted no part of tyson after seeing tyson demolish the best 80s heavyweights who spoon struggled or lost too.


after seeing tyson demolish pinklon thomas(a man who beat spoon) in 6 rounds, spoon wanted no part of tyson.

Is there any evidence of this from either side?

I don't believe for a second that either man was afraid of the other. Spoon would have made more money from this fight than any other. He'd taken some monster punches too. Similarly Tyson would not have been scared of fighting Tim who was often not in great shape. I think this fight didn't happen because Spoon took his eye off the ball and got stopped by Smith and then got tied up by all of the arguemnts with King.

I think Tim was probably the 3rd best HW of the 1980s and its a shame this fight never happened.