BoxRec

barry wrote:Williams was a vicious puncher. If Marciano punched harder than Williams it wasn't by very much at all. Not only was Williams quite a bit bigger, which a lot of time makes no difference whatsoever, but in Williams case it did. He had good technique and simply could bang, as anyone who ever watched a good portion of his career would tell you. To say that Marciano is a lot bigger puncher is simply just not true. He may be a bigger hitter, but as I said before, it wouldn't be by very much! Though I would always pick Marciano to win, a fight between Marciano and Williams would be very interesting!

Exactly, but what does one say when you're asked to prove that Williams was a puncher???..... its like being asked if the world is round or square??.... 8)

silkov wrote:

barry wrote:Williams was a vicious puncher. If Marciano punched harder than Williams it wasn't by very much at all. Not only was Williams quite a bit bigger, which a lot of time makes no difference whatsoever, but in Williams case it did. He had good technique and simply could bang, as anyone who ever watched a good portion of his career would tell you. To say that Marciano is a lot bigger puncher is simply just not true. He may be a bigger hitter, but as I said before, it wouldn't be by very much! Though I would always pick Marciano to win, a fight between Marciano and Williams would be very interesting!

Exactly, but what does one say when you're asked to prove that Williams was a puncher???..... its like being asked if the world is round or square??.... 8)

I think I’ve clearly got the round side of this argument, because you can see that Shavers was a monster puncher because of his KOs of Ellis and Norton and his KDs of Lyle and Holmes. However, there's no proof that Williams a monster puncher beyond a reasonably high KO %. Unfortunately for your side of this debate, there just isn’t anything more. Maybe Williams was a monster puncher on a par with Shavers, but in no reasonable way does the record support that opinion.

Sorry I had to respond to that post because it implies some failing in my argument, which is clearly not there.

>>>Exactly, but what does one say when you're asked to prove that Williams was a puncher???<<<

I think the best evidence is the fact that everyone who was around during the time of Cleveland Williams, everyone, managers, other fighters, promoters, writers, fans, etc...they all looked at Williams as one of the hardest hitting heavyweights of the era...that speaks pretty damn loud to me!!!

As to Vingo...he possibly could have been a contender. He had pretty good skills and may have developed into a prospect, but Marciano put a beating on him about as severe as it gets. I don't think Vingo would have ever made it to the top had he not been hurt, but Marciano could have done a lot worse than Vingo!

Ambling Alp wrote:John L,
I agree with most of what you are saying except for one thing. You keep saying that Shavers knocked Foreman down; but Shavers and Foreman never fought each other. Are you thinking of someone else that Shavers fought?

Errr, I meant Shavers KD Holmes. OK, I screwed up. But he did KD Holmes.

Damn!! And I posted again on this thread about someone other than Satterfield!! My apologies again. Just had to followup to that post that implied I am not open to enlightenment. I’m still waiting for something beyond mere conjecture. Anyone?

What exactly is it that you want?

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I look at it this way, for a man who started out as a Middleweight and went through the Light Heavyweight to Heavyweight divisions, Bob Satterfield's punch power never seemed to wear down or dissipate.

He knocked out Jake LaMotta in his early career, and that is truly saying something! Look at those men he beat from Middleweight to Heavyweight, that was a man of true frightening power.

WHo cares that he lost to Moore by KO, Moore has had more KO's than anybody else. Who cares that Layne starched him, in any other era Layne would have been champion and was so close to stopping Marciano's undefeated streak.

For a man who jumped divisions Satterfield was able to stop much more capable opponents than, let's say, Roy Jones Jr when he jumped to Heavyweight and couldn't hurt John Ruiz and everybody says how great Jones is, and Ruiz is far from great.

Satterfield is right up there in one of the greatest punchers in history. As far as who hit harder than who, I myself think Marciano hit harder and had a way better chin (that's for damn sure).

As far as the comparison to Williams, the "Big Cat" is judged unfairly and is one of the better punchers in Heavyweight history, and is sadly often remembered for being stopped by a prime Ali when he himself was far beyond his best.

Satterfield I would compare, as a Heavyweight, to Williams more than Marciano---and as far as Shavers goes, "The Acorn" was undeniably the most powerful puncher ever, had questionable chin and his endurance and stamina was a gimme, anybody who could get passed Shavers in the first few rounds had one helluva chance.

Irish, you sure about Bob knockin out Jake? I thought it was the other way around here in Chicago at wrigley field.

barry wrote:What exactly is it that you want?

How about a list of actual accomplishments (KO’s, KDs) that would warrant anyone justifying that Williams power was comparable to Shavers? Not fringe contenders, but true world class HWs that Williams KOd? To be considered a great puncher along the lines of Foreman, Shavers, Jeffries, etc., there should be more than just an assumption that he could have KOd world class HWs. I’ve got Terrell, but is there anything else?

And don’t say to watch the tapes, because I’ve seen many of the tapes. But the KOs were not over top flight HWs. Watch Shavers in action as he KDs Holmes, Lyle, Ellis and Norton. Great power just like you see in the Williams fights, but his was against top flight competition. He earned his stripes. Williams did not. Maybe he did punch as hard as Shavers, but his record clearly doesn’t support that theory.

I don't care how many tapes you have watched, but humor me a list the Cleveland Williams fights you have watched! As I said before, all of the people of his era, and I do mean all, regarded Williams as a vicious, murderous punching fighter...just as Shavers was regarded in his era

Now it's not like you had a few that said he was this big hitter and a few that said he wasn't and yet more who said maybe...everyone of the time knew he was one of the hardest hitting heavyweights of the era and they all voiced it very adamantly...and I will take they're word over the word of someone who has only seen a few tapes.

Give me a couple of days and I may go through his record and turn out all the tough fighters he knocked out, but you have to realize to that a lot of fighters with horrible records concerning losses had better chins than many quality heavyweights, so it is not always a case of how quality the fighters were, but instead what kind of beating could they take and what kind of chin did they have, who did they last with and who knocked them out. Quality of opposition alone is as indefinite as what you are saying about determining a fighter hits hard, especially when some of the quality heavyweights in question did not have the greatest of chins to begin with!

The Great John L wrote:

barry wrote:What exactly is it that you want?

How about a list of actual accomplishments (KO’s, KDs) that would warrant anyone justifying that Williams power was comparable to Shavers? Not fringe contenders, but true world class HWs that Williams KOd? To be considered a great puncher along the lines of Foreman, Shavers, Jeffries, etc., there should be more than just an assumption that he could have KOd world class HWs. I’ve got Terrell, but is there anything else?

And don’t say to watch the tapes, because I’ve seen many of the tapes. But the KOs were not over top flight HWs. Watch Shavers in action as he KDs Holmes, Lyle, Ellis and Norton. Great power just like you see in the Williams fights, but his was against top flight competition. He earned his stripes. Williams did not. Maybe he did punch as hard as Shavers, but his record clearly doesn’t support that theory.

Sorry man but you're taking dense to a new level. Unless you didnt notice Shavers lost to Quarry, STander, Lyle, Homes and Ali, ....Ellis was shot and Norton wasnt a blushing bride by the time Earnie got to him... Earni also lost to Cobb and Mercadoe and Tillis.... in fact his wins over real top opposition were not that many, but that is the way with many great punchers... the fact that Williams could punch like hell is evident in his films and films are important because you can actually see the guy fight... also the fact that Cleveland was studiously avoided by Patterson seems to tell me that a certain D'amato held Williams punching power in higher esteem that you do, ...but then again, what did he know eh!...

[quote="silkov]Sorry man but you're taking dense to a new level. Unless you didnt notice Shavers lost to Quarry, STander, Lyle, Homes and Ali, ....Ellis was shot and Norton wasnt a blushing bride by the time Earnie got to him... Earni also lost to Cobb and Mercadoe and Tillis.... in fact his wins over real top opposition were not that many, but that is the way with many great punchers... the fact that Williams could punch like hell is evident in his films and films are important because you can actually see the guy fight... also the fact that Cleveland was studiously avoided by Patterson seems to tell me that a certain D'amato held Williams punching power in higher esteem that you do, ...but then again, what did he know eh!... [/quote]

I see your position has absolutely no ammo, since your total argument is nothing more than simple minded insults. NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE has listed any world class HW that Williams KOd, except for Terrell. Terrell was a little green and Ellis was a bit bruised and worn so they pretty much cancel. Who else is there for Williams? Shavers also stopped Norton and Young and dropped Holmes and Lyle. These are real accomplishments. No one has to list people who claimed that Shavers was a monster puncher, because Shavers proved it in the ring.

D'Amato studiously avoided pretty much everyone that was a threat to Patterson. So what?

Obviously you have nothing to add to this debate except simple insults.

See you in another thread. We might even agree on something in the next one.

The fact that Shavers stopped Roy Williams is more impressive than his stoppages of Ellis, Young, or Norton. Young was as green as it gets when Shavers stopped him...as is evident by Young not only taking Shavers the distance after some experience, but he damn near beat Shavers in the rematch. Ellis was at the end of the road when Shavers did him in, so that is more of a case of being way past his prime when Shavers stopped him and the same can be said of Norton, so you see, name quality really means very little in a lot of instances...this being one.

Now as I said before...what fighters did Williams knock out who had never been knocked out before? Without looking I would bet that there are several, probably just as many to equal Shavers. I know he has some tough fighters on his resume, but the difference here is that I don't think anyone is trying to deny Shavers punching ability...but you are trying to deny Williams' power, who according to many more people, a lot more qualified than you, claimed that he hit as hard as any heavyweight of the 50s and 60s, with the possible exception of Liston and Marciano!

Now can you provide any of the same kind of evidence that you want presented to prove that Williams was not a vicous puncher? And for the record...the stoppage of Ernie Terrell alone is as impressive as anything Shavers ever did in the ring, so that argument is pretty well countered...whether you want to admit to it, or not!

barry wrote:The fact that Shavers stopped Roy Williams is more impressive than his stoppages of Ellis, Young, or Norton. Young was as green as it gets when Shavers stopped him...as is evident by Young not only taking Shavers the distance after some experience, but he damn near beat Shavers in the rematch. Ellis was at the end of the road when Shavers did him in, so that is more of a case of being way past his prime when Shavers stopped him and the same can be said of Norton, so you see, name quality really means very little in a lot of instances...this being one.

Now as I said before...what fighters did Williams knock out who had never been knocked out before? Without looking I would bet that there are several, probably just as many to equal Shavers. I know he has some tough fighters on his resume, but the difference here is that I don't think anyone is trying to deny Shavers punching ability...but you are trying to deny Williams' power, who according to many more people, a lot more qualified than you, claimed that he hit as hard as any heavyweight of the 50s and 60s, with the possible exception of Liston and Marciano!

Now can you provide any of the same kind of evidence that you want presented to prove that Williams was not a vicous puncher? And for the record...the stoppage of Ernie Terrell alone is as impressive as anything Shavers ever did in the ring, so that argument is pretty well countered...whether you want to admit to it, or not!

You say that Young was green, and took Shavers the distance in the rematch? What about Terrell, Williams only top flight victim? Wasn't he also green and he actually beat Willaims in the rematch. Who else? NO ONE has answered that? And if you re-read my posts I DID NOT say that Willaims couldn't punch, just that no reasonable person could put him in Shavers league because he doesn't have the resume. maybe he could punch as hard, but he certainly doesnt have the resume to justify such a lofty standing.

You have countered nothing. Many people said he was the most feared puncher of the 50's and 60's. So what? I don't doubt that people said that. I still say who did he beat to justify a ranking with Shavers? Real world class HWs, not fringe contenders and tough journeymen. Shavers has Ellis, Norton, Young and Bugner (I forgot him). Bugner was not only a very good HW, but also had a pretty solid chin. And I also forgot Williams who was a semi legend in the talent laden 70's. Thanks for that one. And the KDs of Holmes and Lyle. Just write down the KO victims of the two and honestly assess who has the better list of victims.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on. Nothing productive here anymore.

Shit....lol my apologies.

Yes LaMotta did stop Satterfield. I'm sorry I had it mixed up.

Cus I remember LaMotta saying how he had troubles making weight, and when he fought Satterfield it was at Light Heavyweight, and he stopped Satterfield.

Which ironically reminds me of a line outta Raging Bull:

"No matter who I fight...no matter what I do or say...I'm never gonna fight Joe Louis... the best of the best...and you know something? I'm better than them..."

Makes me wonder sometimes if LaMotta and some of the better Middleweights and Light Heavyweights of those times did make the division jump to Heavyweight, if they would have made a big impact on that weight class.

Neways...

Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams by and large never got to really prove himself as a fighter. This was not because he ducked anybody, but because of his power (sorry but it's the truth).

He beat guys like Terrell, Alonzo Johnson, and even drew Eddie Machen. Nobody seems to fornicating remember that Williams was shot during his career and after that he was never the same.

Nobody has that many KO's to his credit unless he was powerful. Yes early on his opponents were nobodies, but even still, nobody gets 21 knockouts in your first 26 fights unless you either had skills or could punch, bad fighters or not.

You have to figure at the height of his powers he handled himself well against top contenders Terrell and Johnson and Machen---imagine if he only had more opprotunities to have proved himself in the division, and hadn't of gotten shot in the gut.

The man would have been a true force. Williams I would put slightly behind Shavers, only because he never did get the shots that he did deserve and because of the gun shot.

And again...

Shavers had a questionable chin, and his stamina was a known liability. If someone could get passed the first few rounds with the "Acorn" you stood one helluva chance. Shavers had his chances, but in my opinion he never did seem to improve as a fighter.

He was a one-trick pony, land that 'ton of bricks' right hand, and his opponents were pulverised and vaporised. Was Shavers a bum? Hell no. He almost stopped Holmes, and in my personal opinion was robbed against Muhammad Ali.

But outside of the power, Shavers had many weaknesses. I won't throw in the Cobb fight because Shavers was well passed his best, facing a man whose head was like titanium and he was blind in one eye---but at the same damn time, he was originally scheduled to face Gerry Cooney, who was the #1 ranked WBC fighter at the time.

Shavers had the edge in power over Williams I believe, because his experience helped him, because he had more shots at top level fighters. And yes genetically the man had more brute strength in my opinion.

But Shavers only relied on his punch. It was all he had. Williams clearly had the better skills, and wasn't too far behind Shavers in power---and that's why he is more deadly.

If only he had more chances, maybe Williams would of had the gold, if not been more remembered in a positive light.

It's like when Marciano first fought, most people considered him to be nothing more than a Neanderthal and when he faced someone with 'true' skills he would be defeated. It wasn't until he retired that people finally came to grips that this man with 69" reach and 180 pounds was truthfully a phenom and were in the presence of sheer power.

***************************************************

What more is there to say? I would hope we could talk Satterfield rather than all these other Heavyweights---if anything can we not compare Satterfield to other 'division-jumpers' who made the move to Heavyweight?

>>>You have countered nothing.<<<

As I said...you can admit it, or not!

barry wrote:The fact that Shavers stopped Roy Williams is more impressive than his stoppages of Ellis, Young, or Norton. Young was as green as it gets when Shavers stopped him...as is evident by Young not only taking Shavers the distance after some experience, but he damn near beat Shavers in the rematch. Ellis was at the end of the road when Shavers did him in, so that is more of a case of being way past his prime when Shavers stopped him and the same can be said of Norton, so you see, name quality really means very little in a lot of instances...this being one.

Now as I said before...what fighters did Williams knock out who had never been knocked out before? Without looking I would bet that there are several, probably just as many to equal Shavers. I know he has some tough fighters on his resume, but the difference here is that I don't think anyone is trying to deny Shavers punching ability...but you are trying to deny Williams' power, who according to many more people, a lot more qualified than you, claimed that he hit as hard as any heavyweight of the 50s and 60s, with the possible exception of Liston and Marciano!

Now can you provide any of the same kind of evidence that you want presented to prove that Williams was not a vicous puncher? And for the record...the stoppage of Ernie Terrell alone is as impressive as anything Shavers ever did in the ring, so that argument is pretty well countered...whether you want to admit to it, or not!

Indeed, I don't see the reason for having to quote Williams wins fight by fight to prove his punching power, its there to see in his record and in his films... But Williams win over Terrell was a highlight no doubt, Terrell had a great chin, aside from the fact that he wasn't the easiest guy to hit in the first place... so John L show us some evidence that Cleve was really a powder puff pusher and put us out of our misery regarding your theories!... 8)

Terrell was a little green and Ellis was a bit bruised and worn so they pretty much cancel.

actually terell was pretty much at his peak while ellis was clearly was past his prime. only one man ever stopped a prime/near prime ernie terell............that was cleveland williams.



cleveland williams was a devastating puncher, just watch film, read reports, listen to contempory sources at the time. they will all tell you.


i have film of prime cleveland williams vs jim wiley...........DEVASTATING KO. 33 seconds into the first round, two SHORT left hook knocks wiley out cold for 5 minutes. it was scary

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Terrell was a little green and Ellis was a bit bruised and worn so they pretty much cancel.

actually terell was pretty much at his peak while ellis was clearly was past his prime. only one man ever stopped a prime/near prime ernie terell............that was cleveland williams.



cleveland williams was a devastating puncher, just watch film, read reports, listen to contempory sources at the time. they will all tell you.


i have film of prime cleveland williams vs jim wiley...........DEVASTATING KO. 33 seconds into the first round, two SHORT left hook knocks wiley out cold for 5 minutes. it was scary

I agree, ...you only need to look at the films to see how Williams could punch.... same with Shavers... though I'd say Williams had the faster hands and was the better technical boxer while Earnie was the more durable and had slightly more overall power....

silkov wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Terrell was a little green and Ellis was a bit bruised and worn so they pretty much cancel.

actually terell was pretty much at his peak while ellis was clearly was past his prime. only one man ever stopped a prime/near prime ernie terell............that was cleveland williams.



cleveland williams was a devastating puncher, just watch film, read reports, listen to contempory sources at the time. they will all tell you.


i have film of prime cleveland williams vs jim wiley...........DEVASTATING KO. 33 seconds into the first round, two SHORT left hook knocks wiley out cold for 5 minutes. it was scary

I agree, ...you only need to look at the films to see how Williams could punch.... same with Shavers... though I'd say Williams had the faster hands and was the better technical boxer while Earnie was the more durable and had slightly more overall power....

HA HA HA HA HA HA.... Jim Wiley... that's a good one.

You guys really do get juvenile with this stuff don't you? Wait more than a week to get the last shot in, and all you come up with is Jim Wiley. Great stuff.

The Great John L wrote:

silkov wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
actually terell was pretty much at his peak while ellis was clearly was past his prime. only one man ever stopped a prime/near prime ernie terell............that was cleveland williams.



cleveland williams was a devastating puncher, just watch film, read reports, listen to contempory sources at the time. they will all tell you.


i have film of prime cleveland williams vs jim wiley...........DEVASTATING KO. 33 seconds into the first round, two SHORT left hook knocks wiley out cold for 5 minutes. it was scary

I agree, ...you only need to look at the films to see how Williams could punch.... same with Shavers... though I'd say Williams had the faster hands and was the better technical boxer while Earnie was the more durable and had slightly more overall power....

HA HA HA HA HA HA.... Jim Wiley... that's a good one.

You guys really do get juvenile with this stuff don't you? Wait more than a week to get the last shot in, and all you come up with is Jim Wiley. Great stuff.

Well it seems you can beat us on the playground insults at least, shame about your boxing knowledge though!.... take some advise and quit while you're behind!... 8)

Williams clearly did not prove his power against the divisions elite to the degree that Shavers did. Shavers power is more obvious against top level opponnents.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Williams clearly did not prove his power against the divisions elite to the degree that Shavers did. Shavers power is more obvious against top level opponnents.

Only because Williams was ducked by most of the top heavies of his era, that doesnt mean he couldnt punch!!.... if he was such a soft touch why was he ducked by so many fighters?....

All you have is speculation regarding how Williams power would have served him against the elite. There is no way of knowing for sure how he would have done had he faced more top-level guys in his prime.

Satterfield did not have the most impressive ko percentage but some of his fights against some top-level opponents do seem to indicate formidable power.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:All you have is speculation regarding how Williams power would have served him against the elite. There is no way of knowing for sure how he would have done had he faced more top-level guys in his prime.

Satterfield did not have the most impressive ko percentage but some of his fights against some top-level opponents do seem to indicate formidable power.

So why did everyone talk about Williams power when he was boxing and why did so many of the contenders of the time not want to fight him?... I've never said that Satterfield didnt have power!... but to say that Williams power is just speculation is simply ludicrous to be blunt...

I would agree that Williams was a fairly good hitter. I'm just saying it is not clear it would have been as effective against top opponnents as that of truly proven bangers.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:I would agree that Williams was a fairly good hitter. I'm just saying it is not clear it would have been as effective against top opponnents as that of truly proven bangers.

Well, if you look at it that way how effective was Shavers against top opponents?.... what top contenders did he ko?... or beat even?.... aside from Norton none... all the other top fighters that Shavers fought beat him.