BoxRec

i never said goldman hurt marciano in fact he was a huge asset to marcianos development. i just think when goldman tightened up marcianos stance and shortened his punches in 1954 enabling him to have better defense, that he took some of marcianos one punch power away(in fact goldman admitted this himself in "rock of his times") .

"Now what determines the power of a punch? I mean the formula… The effect of a punch is calculated by the energy applied at the sight of the hit. So the kinetic energy of Marciano's punch, that is the degree of damage the punch would generate, is equal to 1/2 mass x velocity x velocity (1/2mv2). Rocky's was equal to the mass of the arm plus the weight he shoved forward with body weight. Next, he hit in close. As your arm moves forward the time from beginning to end increases as you increase the distance of the thrown punch. Since velocity = feet per sec, that means the longer the range the less velocity. Now the energy generated is, remember, mass times vel x vel. Well if your punches are so much shorter, traveling only a few inches, your velocity is incredible! And the transmitted energy at impact is enormous! That calculation of energy is the destructive force (damage) to the body. Basically he broke his opponents up inside. Had George Foreman been a swarmer, he would have been a better fighter. He was a slugger. But as strong as he was he hit from too far away. Frazier was not as powerful as Marciano. He had a similar style, but didn't hit as hard (didn't use shifting weight, etc)."

Shorter punches take away power?

look its a known fact marciano was a harder puncher pre 1954, goldman even admits this. if u really want me too, i will go pull out all my quotes and facts to back this up.


film backs this up too

notice how marciano knocks louis, walcott, layne, mathews all out with 1-2 punches and then post 1953 it takes marciano many rounds to finish charles and it takes far more than 1-2 punches, plus it takes marciano 9 rounds of non stop pummeling to take out cockell and moore

Mind you NONE of those other swarmers never had the training abilities and dedication as Marciano

i disagree, frazier was at/close to marcianos level of work ethic and dedication

I never said Marciano ever fought Dempsey or Frazier, my quote was directed at Louis who fought Marciano who said even at his best he could have never beaten Marciano.

As far as Frazier's work ethic is concerned, I some what doubt his work ethic was as close to Marciano's---though their styles were similar, even though Frazier's style was more trying to set someone up for his left hook more times than not.

When he went to fight Muhammad Ali for the third time, his complete training time was 8 weeks, and said "I am in the best shape of my life".

Mind you, both Ali and Frazier were on the downside, after 1975 both men's careers's took towards a major decline, as Ali was awarded "gift decisions" over Young and had awful fights with mediocre opposition, outside of maybe Shavers and Norton, and Frazier bombed out against Foreman again and faded into oblivian.

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I would really like to know what Peter Marciano's opinion on his brother would be, if he was asked if Rocky had went on after 1956? Or better yet, how he would feel he would match up against Liston?

Though you could say that could be a biased response from someone so close to Rocky---fact is, Marciano himself said he wanted to fight on til 1959-1960, and almost came out to face Johansson. Plus Marciano is ranked so much higher than Liston over-all.

Sounds kinda corny, but let's do what Woroner did (for fun mostly) and take Marciano's 5 best years as a professional and Liston's 5 best years, and match them up on a computer---be best 2 out of 3.

Marciano's worst fight was possibly against LaStarza in their first encounter, now, does anyone in here believe that Liston could beat a prime LaStarza? If Marciano had a better work ethic and was stronger than Liston, do you think Liston could?

Liston's best fight was possibly against Williams or Machen, but Williams was really untested against great fighters and Machen had a suspect chin, as he been bombed out before by the mediocre skilled Johansson, who wasn't as powerful as Liston----do you think Marciano could have beaten Williams or Machen?

These are just probabilities...

well all i can say is that a peak Marciano knocks out Johansonn or Patterson with in 5 rounds

I don't think Dempsey believed Marciano was better than himself. You can make a good case for rating Dempsey ahead of Marciano.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:I don't think Dempsey believed Marciano was better than himself. You can make a good case for rating Dempsey ahead of Marciano.

Dempsey just said that Marciano was an extremely hard puncher

Dempsey liked Rocky as a fighter

I believe Dempsey was once quoted:

"What everyone forgets is that Marciano can punch harder with a right hand than any modern-day heavyweight. In his first fight with Walcott, Rocky needed only one blow to win the title. The power in his right scrambled Jersey Joe's brains at Chicago."

"I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over.
That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."

Yea, but Dempsey did rank Langford to be the #1 fighter of all time, which myself I think Langford is right up there in terms of all around greatness.

But at the same time, Langford never really fought a real capable puncher either---so I can't say that Dempsey would be right in his assumption that Langford could stop Marciano, if Walcott and Charles and Moore couldn't and they were almost just as good as Langford.

But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over.
That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."

The one punch ko of Walcott in the first fight is always made out to be something that only Marciano could have ever accomplished. Marciano definitley hit hard, but that particular ko has made his power overrated. If Marciano really hit as hard as alot of people on this site claim it was then how do you explain the TONS of clean punches he landed on Moore, Cockell and Charles amoung others before koing them? And remember most of the top guys he fought hade already been ko'd in there career before they fought Marciano, so it wasnt like he did something never done before.

Maybe you have to take into consideration that, it was Moore' and Charles and Walcott's experience and courage and all their skills that helped keep them on their feet despite facing possibly the hardest punching Heavyweight champion in history?

Call the KO against Walcott in their first meeting a "lucky punch" all you want, but the rematch all but took one single shot to retire Walcott forever. Say that Walcott was old, but many in here could possibly agree with me Walcott fought better in age and his fight with Marciano in their first match, was by far, Walcott's best performance up until the KO.

AND...just because some was knocked out before in their careers, doesn't mean that they were bad fighters or were glass jawed to begin with. I do agree that if someone was knocked out before, the possibility is always there for someone to be knocked out again---but if the fighter is of real quality he will learn from his mistakes and be far more harder to get dropped.

What kinda men did it take to stop Walcott and Charles?

In Walcott's case it took:

Joe Louis- HE WAS DEATH IN REMATCHES
Tiger Jack Fox- One of the all time great Light Heavyweight/Heavyweights

And his two others losses by KO came early in his career, and against Abe Simon who had faced Louis for the title---Walcott probably was not in best of shape, as you have to figure the man for many years never got any serious pay days and took fights on short notice sometimes.

In Charles case it took (in fairness to Charles we are judging by his prime years):

Jersey Joe Walcott- They fought toe to toe over four times, something was bound to give.
Lloyd Marshall- Won the "Duration" World Light Heavyweight title, and was one of the most formidable contenders of the time.

That's TWO knockouts he suffered in his prime years---other than his last match with Marciano. It took HALL OF FAMERS to knock these men out by and large---that's what it takes to beat Walcott and Charles---and Moore?

He himself defied all logic with his longetivity and career KO record of 145 KO's, more than any other fighter in any weight class! His prime is so hard to judge by, because even though he lost to Marciano and later Patterson for the Heavyweight title he remained Light Heavyweight champion up until 1961 (NYSAC title) and retired as champion.

It took men like:

Muhammad Ali- Yes Moore was passed his best, but it was only the year before that he was Light Heavyweight champion and had bested contenders Pete Rademacher and Willie Pastrano.

Floyd Patterson- Call me a blasphemer, but there was rumors Archie went into the tank for this one---but nonetheless, truth or fiction, he lost to a man who was a 2x titlist and truly a HOF fighter.

Ezzard Charles, Jimmy Bivins also knocked out Moore, as did Eddie Booker and Leonard Morrow---the latter two I suspect could only be freak occurences, as Morrow was just a fighter with a 11-2-1 record....yet blasted Moore out in one round... maybe Archie did take dives lol

But nonetheless, the point I am making is, Marciano beaten men by KO that were extremely durable and hard to knock out---it took ATG fighters to knock these men out (rarely occured)---and Marciano blasted them out with almost ease.

So don't down-play Marciano's abilities or his power.

theone wrote:

But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over.
That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."

The one punch ko of Walcott in the first fight is always made out to be something that only Marciano could have ever accomplished. Marciano definitley hit hard, but that particular ko has made his power overrated. If Marciano really hit as hard as alot of people on this site claim it was then how do you explain the TONS of clean punches he landed on Moore, Cockell and Charles amoung others before koing them? And remember most of the top guys he fought hade already been ko'd in there career before they fought Marciano, so it wasnt like he did something never done before.

theone,


pre 1954 marciano was a harder puncher. goldman changed marcianos style in 1954 shortening his punches but tightening and polishing up his defense. as a result he lost some one punch power.

but the pre 1954 marciano was one of the hardest one punch kayo artists who ever lived.

notice how walcott, mathews, louis, and layne are all KNOCKED OUT COLD BY JUST 1-2 PUNCHES. layne had taken bob satterfields best punchers and one marciano right hand sent his teeth flying out the of the ring and knocked him out cold. harry kid mathews had never been knocked out for the 10 count before he fought marciano in over 100 bouts, and 2 left hooks knocked mathews out cold. jersey joe walcott was a great fighter who from 1944-52 had only been knocked out once(by none other than joe louis) despite facing a murderist list of punches from 44-52. yet one punch knocked walcott out cold in one of the greatest punches of all time. joe louis was old and far past his prime, but he was still joe louis, who had won his last 8 in a row and had dominated in the process. louis size, experience, ring smarts, survival skills enabled him to be a harder man to KO. louis had not been knocked out in 12 years, and 2 left hooks and a final right hand knocked louis out cold! just 3 punches.


marciano could hit! he was a legite one punch KO artist pre 1954. he still hit hard post 1954, just not as hard. he was more of an accumalitive puncher post 1954


rocky became more of an attrition grind u down type puncher late in his career, but pre 1954 he was a legite one punch KO artist

rocky was an all time KO artist. guys like moore, walcott, charles, and even old louis it took great fighters to knock them out. all these guys were very hard to kayo cause they had such great ring smarts, recup powers, survival skills, and defense. yet rocky knocked them all out, and he really knocked them out! when it came down to it, rocky knew how to knock the guy out, no matter how great they are.

its harder to knock out a great fighter, than it is a good fighter with a good chin. ive seen plenty of power punchers brutalize and knock out the best contenders in the division, yet when they step up to the plate to face a great fighter, they fail to be able to kayo great fighters. there power suddenly doesnt work on the great fighter. rocky marcianos did!


marciano the only man in history to ever beat all 3 moore, walcott, charles

On a side note, most fighters buld up huge KO records, only for their kayo prowess to dissipate when they reach the top ten or even in their championship years---Marciano was the opposite, of the 6 decision wins he had, 5 came before he was champion---so statistically his KO percentage was rising, rather than declining.

Of Marciano's decision wins:

2 came at the hands of Ted Lowery and that's nothing to feel bad about, as several other HOF fighters went the distance with Lowery, mainly: Joey Maxim, Roland LaStarza, Jimmy Bivins, Jimmy Slade, Phil Muscato, Lee Savold, Tiger Jack Fox; among several others.

1 came at the hands of Roland LaStarza, whom Marciano dispatched of in their rematch by 11th round kayo, LaStarza would go on to say that the defensive abilities of Marciano had so greatly improved between their two matches that LaStarza was virtually outmatched.

1 came at the hands of Red Applegate, and another came at the hands of Don Mogard; both fighters are hardly remembered by today's fans, but Mogard had lost decisions to Cockell, LaStarza and Vingo. Applegate had went the distance with Bivins and Fox. These men were "safe" opponents, but they weren't absoloute bums either, they knew how to handle themselves and came early in Marciano's career.

1 came to Ezzard Charles, whom Marciano dispatched of in their rematch in eight brutal rounds, which goes to prove that claim, that Marciano's kayo prowess only seemed to get better as time went on.

Langford was better at heavyweight in his era than Charles or Walcott were in their era. This does not mean he would beat Marciano but I do think he was better than Walcott or Charles when compared to contemporary heavyweights.

Langford was the world's top heavyweight (in terms of fighting and beating the best competition) from around 1909 to 1916.

Okies....so far everybody has agreed by and large that hadn't Marciano retired, he would have beaten every contender up til Ingo...but possibly would fair badly against Liston.

Now here's a question:

If Marciano had beaten all the contenders listed in the previous pages all the way up til Ingemar Johansson, do you believe that would have made him the greatest Heavyweight champion in history?

As I stated before, the top contenders for the time were (this is NOT in order, and is from 1956-1960):

1.) Nino Valdes
2.) Bob Baker
3.) Earl Walls
4.) Jimmy Slade
5.) John Holman
6.) Tommy 'Hurricane' Jackson
7.) Ezzard Charles*
8.) Don Cockell*
9.) Bob Satterfield
10.) Willie Pastrano
11.) Floyd Patterson
12.) Eddie Machen
13.) Ingemar Johansson
14.) Archie Moore*

And a few others, such as Pete Rademacher, Zora Folley etc

* Rocky had previously defeated these men, so they don't count

He was supposed to face Nino Valdes after the Moore fight, but it was not to be...so here is my take on the contenders of 1956, had Marciano fought them and retired, as he wanted around 1959-1960, and since we all agreed that he would have beaten everybody up until Liston, this is how I think it could have been:

Nino Valdes would be a hard fight for the Rock in the early going, with Marciano trailing slightly, but he continues the pressure and hammers away with body shots on the much larger Valdes. Rocky at times is assaulted with long range jabs and flurries, but manages to drop Valdes in the middle rounds. Valdes goes on the defensive, but Marciano comes on more vicous, Valdes tries to give Rocky a taste of his own medicine, but is caught with jolting rights and lefts and uppercuts, Valdes is helpless and Marciano bombs him down again. Valdes gets up at the count of nine, but Marciano comes out swinging and belts Valdes hard dropping the Cuban again...this time for the count! (KO 10)

Bob Baker Another big man for the Rock to fight, Baker is a bit more aggressive than Valdes, and packs a wallop as well, Marciano has trouble in the early rounds, trying to get his niche, Baker senses that he can hurt the Rock and tries to go for the knockout. Stands toe to toe with Marciano, but the Brockton Blockbuster is just too strong and Baker is getting the bad end of the stick! Marciano comes out strong as Baker tries to go on the defensive, seeing that Marciano is just too powerful to slug with, but Marciano will not be denied as he tears into his man with jolting uppercuts to Baker's torso. Baker gets worn down, tries to cover up, Marciano throws punches in bunches with bad intentions, Baker tries to escape and is caught flush on the chin and goes down for a count of 5. Rocky attacks again, ripping punches like a madman, Baker swings hard misses and is caught again! He gets up at a count of 8. Marciano doesn't let up, and its more of the same, Baker trying to survive, and again is knocked down and the referee calls this slaughter off! (KO 10)

Bob Satterfield Satterfield, a man not known greatly for his boxing skills, comes out swinging, the Rock and Satterfield trade punch after punch; Satterfield every once in a while side stepping and backing up, as Marciano comes on forward, Marciano gets tagged with a hard clean shot and goes down for a two count. Marciano comes up and knows this man Satterfield has come to fight! Marciano starts throwing punches with bad intentions, throwing uppercuts and over hand rights without conscience, Satterfield is hurting bad, his legs are going, and is caught flush with the Susie Q! It's all over for Satterfield! (KO 5)

Earl Walls The prospect Canadian is giving Marciano a hard time in the eraly going, showing up the Rock to the best of his abilities, but Marciano sticks to his game plan and comes forward with the body shots, the fight is almost even on the score cards, Marciano comes out more viscous and Walls is starting to slip up, his inexperience with top flight opposition, though having an impressive record, is showing. Marciano continues his onslaught on Walls, but Walls is game and wont quit. Rounds 4-6 are the same, Walls getting in his shots, showing he is still in this fight, and Marciano is still pushing forward and belting Walls with shots. Round 7 Marciano drops Walls for a count of 4, and Marciano comes after Walls like a tiger, throwing punches anywhere and everywhere he can land them! Walls is in trouble and tries to retaliate, but can't stop this bull of a man! He gets caught! Walls goes down, he staggers to his feet and the referee calls this fight off, Walls can't even stand up straight! (KO 9)

*Defends against Slade and Holman, both 8-9th round stoppages*

Tommy 'Hurricane' Jackson Back in 1955 Marciano and Jackson had sparred together, Marciano left Jackson helpless then, let's see if he does it again! Jackson controls the first five rounds relatively easy, using lateral foot movement and his jab, Marciano using that crouching style of his so that Jackson can't land an effective punch. Marciano is cut now, but it isn't serious, maybe the long battles he's had has slowed him down, but Marciano won't quit! Marciano continues the pressure on Jackson, body punches in bunches, Jackson still ahead on the score cards, but he is clearly slowing down now. Rounds 7-9 have made this fight more even, with the Rock getting more shots in on Jackson. Jackson tries to throw more flurries, hoping to win the round, but Marciano let's loose and Jackson is feeling the pain! Jackson is staggered and tries to defend himself, but Marciano's punches keep on landing, Jackson swings, Rocky ducks, throws the Susie Q and Jackson goes down! Jackson gets back on his feet, but Marciano goes in throwing hard body shots and hooks to the head, Jackson collapses under the pressure! He fights to get up at the count of nine, and is saved by the bell. What's this? Jackson's corner has waved the towel, it is over! Marciano wins by TKO in the 11th round!

Floyd Patterson Up and coming Floyd Patterson is the talk of boxing, and with his manager Cus D'mato, he is certainly a game player. He has held wins over Jackson and even beaten Moore, whom the Rock stopped in 1955! Marciano can't seem to cope with Patterson's hand speed, as Patterson ducks in and out of Marciano's punches, Marciano is behind on all score cards, and is cut on both eyes. Marciano now and then lands several crshing body blows, but Patterson is hanging in there. It's round 10 now and Patterson goes in for a quick flurry, but Marciano lands a solid right hand and Patterson is definately hurt! Marciano throws a two punch combination, left and right, and Patterson goes down! Patterson struggles to get on his feet, and is up at nine. Rounds 11-12 is all Patterson, staying away from Marciano's big right hand. In the 13th round Patterson has been in control, but Marciano continues to press on, Patterson is near the ropes, Marciano attacks, Patterson throws punches back, Marciano lands a solid left uppercut and follows with the Susie Q! Patterson starts to go down, but Marciano still throws punches in bunches as the challenger falls. Patterson doesn't even wiggle a toe! He's down and out for the count! Marciano wins by KO in the 13th round!

*Marciano opted to face Johansson rather than Machen, as the big Swede is making waves through the boxing world with his kayo wins over Machen and Cooper, as well as Patterson*

Ingemar Johansson For two rounds these men have just traded blows, Ingo and his Hammer of Thor and Marciano's Susie Q! Marciano is caught with a sledge hammer of a right hand and goes down for a count of 5! Marciano comes back with bad intentions, throwing everything he has at a man he calls "less than an amatuer". Ingemar holds on and keeps fighting back, but it's of no avail, he too is dropped! He gets up at 6! This is one helluva fight. Round four is when it happened, Ingemar Johansson the bige Swede, despite his prowess, was knocked down three more times, the Marciano of old has struck back with vengance, and Johansson is sent on back to his native homeland with a loss on his record!

*Marciano Retires*

As I stated before, the top contenders for the time were (this is NOT in order, and is from 1956-1960):

1.) Nino Valdes
2.) Bob Baker
3.) Earl Walls
4.) Jimmy Slade
5.) John Holman
6.) Tommy 'Hurricane' Jackson
7.) Ezzard Charles*
8.) Don Cockell*
9.) Bob Satterfield
10.) Willie Pastrano
11.) Floyd Patterson
12.) Eddie Machen
13.) Ingemar Johansson
14.) Archie Moore*

willie pastrono has no business being in there


- cockell was retired before 1956, charles wasnt even a contender anymore in 1956


i would replace charles, cockell, pastrano with mike dejohn, harold carter, and henry cooper


harold carter is very underated, he was a damm good boxer

dejohn one of the hardest hitters of that era. he was big and powerful. defintley belongs on that list. one of listons key pre heavyweight title wins.

Well as i stated, Cockell and Charles didn't count, because Marciano beaten the before, but both men were still in the top ten in 1955.

I added Pastrano, because he did fight at Heavyweight on occassion and did beat men like London, Norkus, Layne, Alonzo Johnson, and "contender" McNeeley, plus beated Hardold Johnson, who faced many a great Heavyweight, though he himself was a Light Heavyweight, as was Pastrano. Moore had fought both Pastrano (Draw) and Rademacher in his later years, and Pastrano was in line to face Floyd Patterson, but the bout never materialised:

"Patterson, meanwhile, following a KO over "Hurricane" Jackson in a rematch for the defense of his title, was fighting an odd assortment of contenders. D'Mato maintained the IBC had a blacklist and wouldn't let top contenders fight Patterson. He tried to arrange a fight between Patterson and Willie Pastrano. The challenger's managers accepted the fight, then, a short while later, when word got around, they called back and said Pastrano couldn't fight Patterson. The IBC was calling in it's chits." -excerpt from Bad Intentions: The Mike Tyson Story-

Pastrano had no business on the list? Yet was a contender when Patterson was around? You see my list of contenders went from 1956-1960, though not all the contenders from that time, Pastrano did belong among them when Floyd became champion (1956; year after Marciano retired).

Yes the men you listed would have been good contenders as well, but could you really imagine Cooper standing a chance with Marciano?

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With all that said, do you think my "play by play" of each "fight" or the results were accurate? And do you think, if Marciano did do all this, like we all said he probably could have done, that he would have been the greatest champion? Or would he still be #3, #5 on ur list?

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Well as i stated, Cockell and Charles didn't count, because Marciano beaten the before, but both men were still in the top ten in 1955.

I added Pastrano, because he did fight at Heavyweight on occassion and did beat men like London, Norkus, Layne, Alonzo Johnson, and "contender" McNeeley, plus beated Hardold Johnson, who faced many a great Heavyweight, though he himself was a Light Heavyweight, as was Pastrano. Moore had fought both Pastrano (Draw) and Rademacher in his later years, and Pastrano was in line to face Floyd Patterson, but the bout never materialised:

"Patterson, meanwhile, following a KO over "Hurricane" Jackson in a rematch for the defense of his title, was fighting an odd assortment of contenders. D'Mato maintained the IBC had a blacklist and wouldn't let top contenders fight Patterson. He tried to arrange a fight between Patterson and Willie Pastrano. The challenger's managers accepted the fight, then, a short while later, when word got around, they called back and said Pastrano couldn't fight Patterson. The IBC was calling in it's chits." -excerpt from Bad Intentions: The Mike Tyson Story-

Pastrano had no business on the list? Yet was a contender when Patterson was around? You see my list of contenders went from 1956-1960, though not all the contenders from that time, Pastrano did belong among them when Floyd became champion (1956; year after Marciano retired).

Yes the men you listed would have been good contenders as well, but could you really imagine Cooper standing a chance with Marciano?

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With all that said, do you think my "play by play" of each "fight" or the results were accurate? And do you think, if Marciano did do all this, like we all said he probably could have done, that he would have been the greatest champion? Or would he still be #3, #5 on ur list?

willie pastrano beat harold johnson in 1963, that has no releveance here. WERE TALKING 1956-60 ONLY.


pastrano did not do enough 56-60 to be listed as a top 15 heavyweight contender.

mike dejohn and harold carter were better heavyweight contenders than pastrano. harold carter very underated

Maybe so, but that still don't change facts that Pastrano was given a shot at the title, but his managers called it off. Myself Pastrano was a helluva lot better than Rademacher, McNeeley, London whom Patterson defended against.

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And you still never really answered my Q.

do you think my "play by play" of each "fight" or the results were accurate? And do you think, if Marciano did do all this, like we all said he probably could have done, that he would have been the greatest champion? Or would he still be #3, #5 on ur list?

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And even if you did substitute some of the men I listed with the men you suggested, do you really think Henry Cooper would have stood a chance? Or Cart or DeJohn?