BoxRec

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 01:20**

Decagon wrote:Jess McMahon worked out of New York a lot, had experience promoting not only heavyweight fights, but interracial heavyweight title fights, and he was never afraid to buck the system, especially when there was money to be made.

Jess McMahon WAS AN EMPLOYEE OF TEX RICKARD.

Jess McMahon was Rickard's matchmaker.

McMahon arranged the fights on the undercard when Dempsey fought.

After Rickard died, Jess McMahon served the same function for Mike Jacobs.

Jess McMahon's son, Vince McMahon, was also involved in boxing, as a promoter, ending up in Washington, DC.

At the end of his life Jess McMahon's son, Vince McMahon, commented that he was disgusted with the difficulties involved in successfully promoting fights and that he found putting on wrestling matches a safer way to make a living (since he always had full houses when he put on wrestling shows).

Vince McMahon's son, Vince McMahon (Jr),--the grandson of JESS McMahon--took over after his father died and promoted exclusively wrestling. He is the one connected with wrestling in the recent decades.

I asked you to name a few of the "lots of promoters" who could have outbid Rickard whom you claim existed .

You "answer" by naming an employee of Tex Rickard.

Pathetic.

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 04:00**

As to Dempsey, I’m not trying to say he is without blame, but it certainly was not all his fault, which is what so many like to claim, nor is it mostly his fault…that lies with Rickard and the politicians.

>>>Face facts, Harry Wills was viewed as a formidable opponent to the Manassa Mauler's crown, by the press, by other fighters, by rickard, by the fans and by Dempsey himself. Being black was only Harry's first sin--the second, really damning fact about him was that he also happened to be damn good. Those two things are what the crux of this whole thing is about.<<<

That’s pretty much the reason I gave why Rickard, but more so the politicians wanted Wills no where near a title fight, whether it had been Dempsey, Willard, Tunney, or any other white heavyweight. Jack Johnson left such a bad taste in the mouths of the white leaders that they sure as hell were not going to risk having another colored heavyweight hold the crown…regardless of how humble and decent the man was, which was very racist and very unfair, but the fact that Wills was a real threat to Dempsey, or Willard there was no way that he was going to get a shot. As I have said, I don’t think Wills would have beaten Dempsey, but he sure had a good chance and certainly had the tools to do it, but that was not going to happen and most of the blame should in fact be given to Rickard, Kearns and the white politicians of the day. Dempsey certainly has to bear some guilt as well, but when it came down to it…even if Dempsey had very badly wanted to fight Wills it wasn’t going to happen.

>>>I've always wanted to read more about them, but it seems that they don't get enough attention.<<<

You can get all the reading you want from the colored newspapers of the day, or from the hometown newspapers of each fighter! Right now you can read from the Pro Quest database the Chicago Defender, which was a black newspaper and there is a slew of information on the colored fighters of the 30s and 40s. You're not going to read anything by writers of today because most have not done the research. Kevin Smith (RowanSmith) is probably the best knowledge historian on early colored fighters that I know and though there are a few more who really focus a lot on the early colored fighters and know what they are talking about, but there just really isn't many people to put forth the time and effort that it takes to do the proper research. Elmer Ray, Lee Q. Murray, Turkey Thompson, Walcott and Curtis Sheppard (who fought one year at light heavyweight…he was heavyweight) were all heavyweights that came along later in Louis’ reign!

The earlier top colored fighters that were ignored were guys like Eddie Blunt, Jack Trammell, Leroy Haynes, Roscoe Toles, Larry Gains, Lem Franklin, Willie Reddish, George Godfrey, Harry Bobo, Buddy Walker, Lorenzo Pack, Big Boy Bray and more lesser fighters. Louis did fight a couple of those guys, but it was early in they’re career’s, certainly not after they had learned they’re craft.

As I have said many times before, just looking at the record of those fighters isn’t going to tell you anything about them and though some have less-than-flattering records they were just as good as most of the white fighters who did get title shots, but most of the guys I mentioned were A-Level heavyweight. You can find all that you could ever possibly want to read about those fighters from newspapers of the day. Not all were covered by the New York Times, or other large papers and those are the ones that you will have to put in time with they’re local newspaper…like Willie Reddish for instance…you can find all that you ever wanted to know about him by researching the various Philadelphia newspapers, or Lem Franklin, who was covered a lot by the Chicago newspapers.

It’s not a problem of there not being enough information on all these fighters because the information is out there…tons of it about the fighters mentioned, but sometimes one will have to put forth some serious effort to research it…it’s not something that can be found through an internet search engine…though some years down the road I suspect that we will be able to use a search engine as more and more newspapers are starting to upload they’re entire newspaper archives to the internet, but for the time being the research that one can do on the internet is through Pro Quest, Newspaperarchive.com, or others like that, but one can still find a ton of information from each.

For instance, I just did a search on the Pro Quest database fro Leroy Haynes, which came back with close to 500 articles/hits…and a search on newspaperarchive for Haynes came back with over 4,000 (Though probably only around 40% of that is articles about the fighter Haynes), the same kind of search fro Lem Franklin turned up 715 from pro quest (which around 90% of all pro quest is the correct fighter) and newspaperarchive.com turned up over 11,000 (about 40% were for the fighter Franklin). The same can be said of the others fighters as well, but as I have said many times before…it’s something that a person has to be willing to put forth the time and effort into if they want to learn about these fighters because a record alone tells very, very little.

The heavyweights were pretty plentiful during the 30s and 40s…plentiful of many top, very skilled fighters both black and white, not to mention the loads of top light heavyweights who often competed and with great success at heavyweight…guys like Al Gainer, Billy Jones, “Tiger” Jack Fox and several others of that quality of fighter!!!

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 04:12**

>>>Wills had no trouble with Firpo whatsoever<<<

Dempsey knocked Firpo out in three...Wills went twelve rounds and still didn't take Firpo out...he won every round, but he did not take Firpo out. To say that he had no trouble whatsoever is simply incorrect. If he would have had no trouble whatsoever then Firpo would have been knocked out in the first round. Not to mention that it was considered to be a real stinker of a fight...one ringside writer stated "It probably was one of the worst exhibitions ever put up by recognized aspirants to the heavyweight crown," so it was most certainly not on par with Dempsey-Firpo in terms of fight...finance, or excitement.

>>>You don't wanna claim seriously that Firpo was anywhere close to Wills as a fighter?<<<

Did I say anything that would even hint at that? No, I didn't...I said that the heavyweight division did not suffer because Dempsey failed to fight Wills as the million dollar gates clearly proves...I did say that Dempsey-Firpo was possibly the best fight in history, which it very well may have been!

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 05:45**

ONE MORE THING: IF THE FIGHT HAPPENED U PEOPLE DO KNOW HOW MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED? DEMPSEY TRIED TO FIGHT WILLS, FACT. AND WILLS NEVER BLAMED DEMPSEY, FACT

AND BEFORE DEMPSEY HOOKED UP WITH KEARNS HE HAD FOUGHT BLACK FIGHTERS.

U HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITCISE JUST DEMPSEY FOR THIS DESPITE HIS EFFORTS. HE PERSONALLY PLACED ARTICLES IN THE NEWSPAPER FOR THIS FIGHT, EVEN SIGNED TO FIGHT WILLS.

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 08:03**

I just wanted to stress a few things that some people may overlook:

Even if you buy the story of Godfrey losing on purpose(Haven't seen any proof. Haven't even seen it alleged that Risko and Sharkey fights were thrown) why should have assume that Godfrey would have beaten those guys anyway?

Who was the best guy that Godfrey had knocked out? Jim Maloney was the only contender.
Godfrey beat Uzcudun. His best win at that point. That doesn't make you the automatic # 1 contender.

We know from wills fights with Langford, McVey, Jeanette, a prime Fulton etc. that Wills was great. Godfrey simply hadn't proved it.

Dempsey's title defense against Miske wasn't promoted by Rickard. that is an indication that Rickard didn't have absolute control over him. If nothing else, couldn't Dempsey have fought Wills somewhere outside the United States where the fight would be allowed?

Most of the heavyweight contenders were not black when tunney was a heavyweight. It's not like 8 out of 10 were black and he fought only the non-blacks. Wills and Godfrey were the only black contenders at the time.
(Gains was not a contender yet.)

When Tunney was a light heavyweight in the late teens and early 1920's most of the top lightheavys weren't black. If you really think about it, it's not that surprising that Tunney never fought a black opponent.

If Rickard had this iron grip on fighters (thus blocking Dempsey from fighting Wills) then he would have had the same iron grip on Tunney, preventing him from fighting Godfrey.

It simply isn't logical to conclude that Tunney was worse for not fighting Godfrey (who was never the consensus #1 contender) than Dempsey for not fighting Wills.

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 09:08**

John L. Sullivan backed out of matches with George Godfrey and Peter Jackson. Corbett declined to defend against Peter Jackson. Jeffries retired rather than give Jack Johnson a shot. Tommy Burns broke the colour line and was attacked in the press for it. Jack Johnson flatly refused to defend the title against Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette or Sam McVea, and managed to avoid the best of the White Hopes Gunboat Smith and Luther McCarty. Willard, Dempsey and Tunney all drew the colour line, and a number of white contenders were ignored as well during their reigns. It goes on throughout history. Louis never gave Tiger Jack Fox, Jimmy Bivins, etc. a chance, though others with markedly poorer records did fight for the title. If you examine the reigns of most champions, you'll likely find one or two challengers who missed out for whatever reason. That's what provides boxing with its intriguing "What If" aspect, and gives impetus to simulation game creators like the Trunzo brothers. Take their Title Bout Championship Boxing sim and give all those title aspirants their chance at the brass ring. 8)

Cap

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 11:46**

granberry wrote:
RowanSmith wrote:That being said, I always find it difficult to truly rate Demspey. he never had that defining fight--that big one against his nemesis that really defined him as a great champion.
Sounds like you missed the Willard fight.

Sounds like you missed the Fred Fulton fight.

Nope, didn't miss either. Willard and Fulton, although both good, were hardly great fighters---neither tested Dempsey in any way--neither had the goods to do so.

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 12:16**

RowanSmith wrote:
granberry wrote:
RowanSmith wrote:That being said, I always find it difficult to truly rate Demspey. he never had that defining fight--that big one against his nemesis that really defined him as a great champion.
Sounds like you missed the Willard fight.

Sounds like you missed the Fred Fulton fight.
Nope, didn't miss either. Willard and Fulton, although both good, were hardly great fighters---neither tested Dempsey in any way--neither had the goods to do so.

Fulton had the goods to stop Sam Langford in 7 rounds and end his career as a serious contender.

Dempsey had the goods to knock out Fulton in 18 seconds of the first round--including the ten count.

Dempsey had the goods to knock Jess Willard off his feet for the first time in Willard's career.

Dempsey had the goods to knock Willard down 7 times in the first round.

Johnny Dundee said, "The Dempsey of Toledo--he was the best I ever saw."

Dundee had the goods to fight over 300 fights.

Johnny Dundee didn't miss the Willard-Dempsey fight, did he?

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 13:18**

barry wrote:As to Dempsey, I’m not trying to say he is without blame, but it certainly was not all his fault, which is what so many like to claim, nor is it mostly his fault…that lies with Rickard and the politicians.

>>>Face facts, Harry Wills was viewed as a formidable opponent to the Manassa Mauler's crown, by the press, by other fighters, by rickard, by the fans and by Dempsey himself. Being black was only Harry's first sin--the second, really damning fact about him was that he also happened to be damn good. Those two things are what the crux of this whole thing is about.<<<

That’s pretty much the reason I gave why Rickard, but more so the politicians wanted Wills no where near a title fight, whether it had been Dempsey, Willard, Tunney, or any other white heavyweight. Jack Johnson left such a bad taste in the mouths of the white leaders that they sure as hell were not going to risk having another colored heavyweight hold the crown…regardless of how humble and decent the man was, which was very racist and very unfair, but the fact that Wills was a real threat to Dempsey, or Willard there was no way that he was going to get a shot. As I have said, I don’t think Wills would have beaten Dempsey, but he sure had a good chance and certainly had the tools to do it, but that was not going to happen and most of the blame should in fact be given to Rickard, Kearns and the white politicians of the day. Dempsey certainly has to bear some guilt as well, but when it came down to it…even if Dempsey had very badly wanted to fight Wills it wasn’t going to happen.

>>>I've always wanted to read more about them, but it seems that they don't get enough attention.<<<

You can get all the reading you want from the colored newspapers of the day, or from the hometown newspapers of each fighter! Right now you can read from the Pro Quest database the Chicago Defender, which was a black newspaper and there is a slew of information on the colored fighters of the 30s and 40s. You're not going to read anything by writers of today because most have not done the research. Kevin Smith (RowanSmith) is probably the best knowledge historian on early colored fighters that I know and though there are a few more who really focus a lot on the early colored fighters and know what they are talking about, but there just really isn't many people to put forth the time and effort that it takes to do the proper research. Elmer Ray, Lee Q. Murray, Turkey Thompson, Walcott and Curtis Sheppard (who fought one year at light heavyweight…he was heavyweight) were all heavyweights that came along later in Louis’ reign!

The earlier top colored fighters that were ignored were guys like Eddie Blunt, Jack Trammell, Leroy Haynes, Roscoe Toles, Larry Gains, Lem Franklin, Willie Reddish, George Godfrey, Harry Bobo, Buddy Walker, Lorenzo Pack, Big Boy Bray and more lesser fighters. Louis did fight a couple of those guys, but it was early in they’re career’s, certainly not after they had learned they’re craft.

As I have said many times before, just looking at the record of those fighters isn’t going to tell you anything about them and though some have less-than-flattering records they were just as good as most of the white fighters who did get title shots, but most of the guys I mentioned were A-Level heavyweight. You can find all that you could ever possibly want to read about those fighters from newspapers of the day. Not all were covered by the New York Times, or other large papers and those are the ones that you will have to put in time with they’re local newspaper…like Willie Reddish for instance…you can find all that you ever wanted to know about him by researching the various Philadelphia newspapers, or Lem Franklin, who was covered a lot by the Chicago newspapers.

It’s not a problem of there not being enough information on all these fighters because the information is out there…tons of it about the fighters mentioned, but sometimes one will have to put forth some serious effort to research it…it’s not something that can be found through an internet search engine…though some years down the road I suspect that we will be able to use a search engine as more and more newspapers are starting to upload they’re entire newspaper archives to the internet, but for the time being the research that one can do on the internet is through Pro Quest, Newspaperarchive.com, or others like that, but one can still find a ton of information from each.

For instance, I just did a search on the Pro Quest database fro Leroy Haynes, which came back with close to 500 articles/hits…and a search on newspaperarchive for Haynes came back with over 4,000 (Though probably only around 40% of that is articles about the fighter Haynes), the same kind of search fro Lem Franklin turned up 715 from pro quest (which around 90% of all pro quest is the correct fighter) and newspaperarchive.com turned up over 11,000 (about 40% were for the fighter Franklin). The same can be said of the others fighters as well, but as I have said many times before…it’s something that a person has to be willing to put forth the time and effort into if they want to learn about these fighters because a record alone tells very, very little.

The heavyweights were pretty plentiful during the 30s and 40s…plentiful of many top, very skilled fighters both black and white, not to mention the loads of top light heavyweights who often competed and with great success at heavyweight…guys like Al Gainer, Billy Jones, “Tiger” Jack Fox and several others of that quality of fighter!!!

awesome post barry! great to hear u mention those highly avoided heavyweights of the 30-40s! i have a proquest and i have been studying those guys for a while. thanx for mentiong chicago defender, im going to check up on that!

but listen to barry guys about the colored heavyweights of that era, there were som damm god heavyweights in the list he mentioned!

its funny, cause people act like walcott did nothing pre WW II except lose to contenders. well they are wrong! walcott beat highly avoided black contenders lorenzo pack and willie reddish as well as decent black heavyweight henry taylor.

colored heavyweights of the 30s-40s have been horribly understudied by fans over the years.

great work barry!

btw barry,

do u know where i can get newspaper articles on harry bobo??

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 13:22**

Who was the best guy that Godfrey had knocked out? Jim Maloney was the only contender.
Godfrey beat Uzcudun. His best win at that point. That doesn't make you the automatic # 1 contender.

uhhh he knocked out top 50 heavyweight of all time highly avoided black contender larry gains. gains was one of the best heavyweights of that era!

godfrey also knocked out tiger jack fox! fox was one of the best black heavyweights of the 1930s and was one of the most dangerous contenders out there for louis.

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 13:24**

Even if you buy the story of Godfrey losing on purpose(Haven't seen any proof.

heres a source

"I think Godfrey was the most handcuffed fighter of all time. When we interviewed Dougherty's son Howard, who was also a promoter and drove Godfrey across country for his campaign in California, He talked of all the concessions they had to make in order for Godfrey to meet high rated fighters including carrying opponents, fouling out, etc. His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision.

It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko, that his first two matches with Renault were "smellers" and his "foul-outs" were "ordered." Today People don't realize that one leading black challenger (Wills) was tolerated because of his "good name" with the New York commission but two top black challengers were frowned on. Godfrey and his management (Dougherty) tried to alleviate the situation by attempting to lure Wills into the ring by any means, but of course Wills and Paddy Mullins were not about to risk their position that they earned by taking on young, and very dangerous opponent like Godfrey.
By the way check out photos of Godfrey pre 1926 before his frustrations caused him to gain weight. His body was ripped with muscle and he was always in top condition".- Chuck Hasson

* Chuck is one of IBRO's most respected researchers and an expert on boxing in Phialdelphia.

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 13:51**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Who was the best guy that Godfrey had knocked out? Jim Maloney was the only contender.
Godfrey beat Uzcudun. His best win at that point. That doesn't make you the automatic # 1 contender.

uhhh he knocked out top 50 heavyweight of all time highly avoided black contender larry gains. gains was one of the best heavyweights of that era!

godfrey also knocked out tiger jack fox! fox was one of the best black heavyweights of the 1930s and was one of the most dangerous

contenders out there for louis.

Gains wasn't a contender when Godfrey beat him in 1925. The victory over Fox was over 5 years after Tunney retired.

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 13:56**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Even if you buy the story of Godfrey losing on purpose(Haven't seen any proof.

heres a source

"I think Godfrey was the most handcuffed fighter of all time. When we interviewed Dougherty's son Howard, who was also a promoter and drove Godfrey across country for his campaign in California, He talked of all the concessions they had to make in order for Godfrey to meet high rated fighters including carrying opponents, fouling out, etc. His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision.

It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko, that his first two matches with Renault were "smellers" and his "foul-outs" were "ordered." Today People don't realize that one leading black challenger (Wills) was tolerated because of his "good name" with the New York commission but two top black challengers were frowned on. Godfrey and his management (Dougherty) tried to alleviate the situation by attempting to lure Wills into the ring by any means, but of course Wills and Paddy Mullins were not about to risk their position that they earned by taking on young, and very dangerous opponent like Godfrey.
By the way check out photos of Godfrey pre 1926 before his frustrations caused him to gain weight. His body was ripped with muscle and he was always in top condition".- Chuck Hasson

* Chuck is one of IBRO's most respected researchers and an expert on boxing in Phialdelphia.

That isn't proof at all. It's one persons opinion.
And as I went further on to say, even if you by the story that Godrey lost on purpose to Risko and Renault (and others) that doesn't mean he would have beaten them anyway.

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 14:07**

george godfrey is considered by many historians a top 20-30 heavyweight of all time. there are many who rate him at the same level as harry wills.

i think its clear godfrey was in a different class than risko and renault

godfrey knocks out both of them IMO, godfrey was a vicious puncher at his peak.

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 14:20**

Ambling Alp wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Who was the best guy that Godfrey had knocked out? Jim Maloney was the only contender.
Godfrey beat Uzcudun. His best win at that point. That doesn't make you the automatic # 1 contender.

uhhh he knocked out top 50 heavyweight of all time highly avoided black contender larry gains. gains was one of the best heavyweights of that era!

godfrey also knocked out tiger jack fox! fox was one of the best black heavyweights of the 1930s and was one of the most dangerous

contenders out there for louis.
Gains wasn't a contender when Godfrey beat him in 1925. The victory over Fox was over 5 years after Tunney retired.

gains may have not been a "ranked contender" but he was still unqestionably one of the best heavyweight contenders in the world in 1926. he was in his prime and godfrey knocked him out

Posted: **21 Jul 2006, 14:21**

That isn't proof at all. It's one persons opinion.

how could u not accept that source????

hes said "It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko"

- HES SPEAKING FOR PHILADELPHIA, NOT HIMSELF

how is this not legite evidence? chuck hasson is a very legititmate source

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 06:32**

BB---You can get a shit-load of articles from the Pittsburgh newspapers of Bobo's era...especially the Black Pittsburgh paper, Pittsburgh Courier, which was one of the nations most widely circulated Black newspapers of the day and of course the Pittsburgh Post would be one of the best sources as well for articles on Bobo. You should be able to get them through interlibrary loan either at your local library, or at your college library.

I did a search on Pro Quest and it returned 252 hits for Bobo, so there should be some pretty good info there, but the Pittsburgh papers would be the best route to take.

A search on newspaperarchive.com brought up a lot of hits as well.

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 06:38**

As of 1925 Jess McMahon was Tex Rickard's promoter at the new Madison Square Garden and he worked with and for Rickard earlier than that when he was matchmaker for the Commonwealth SC. I have articles, but I don't know how to post PDF format files on the forum.

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 09:33**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:george godfrey is considered by many historians a top 20-30 heavyweight of all time. there are many who rate him at the same level as harry wills.

i think its clear godfrey was in a different class than risko and renault

godfrey knocks out both of them IMO, godfrey was a vicious puncher at his peak.

Well I'm sure there are many more who don't consider him anywhere near that high. I'm sure there are many more that consider Wills much better than godfrey. We know Wills was great from his fights with Langford,McVey, Jeanette prime Fulton etc. Godfrey best wins are far less impressive.

It's not clear at all that Godfrey was in a different class than the other contenders of era. He didn't beat many of them. Supposedly thrwoing fights doesn't make you great. You have to beat top fighters.

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 09:36**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

uhhh he knocked out top 50 heavyweight of all time highly avoided black contender larry gains. gains was one of the best heavyweights of that era!

godfrey also knocked out tiger jack fox! fox was one of the best black heavyweights of the 1930s and was one of the most dangerous

contenders out there for louis.
Gains wasn't a contender when Godfrey beat him in 1925. The victory over Fox was over 5 years after Tunney retired.

gains may have not been a "ranked contender" but he was still unqestionably one of the best heavyweight contenders in the world in 1926. he was in his prime and godfrey knocked him out

You can keep saying that Gains was a contender in 1926-1928, but that doesn't make him one. He had not beaten any contenders at all. He lost to Bill Hartwell and Martin Burke in this period. He was several years away from being a serious contender.

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 09:54**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
That isn't proof at all. It's one persons opinion.

how could u not accept that source????

Maybe Chuck Hasson kows a lot about bo
hes said "It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko"

- HES SPEAKING FOR PHILADELPHIA, NOT HIMSELF

how is this not legite evidence? chuck hasson is a very legititmate source

Are you serious? You think this passes for legite evidence?
Just because Chuck Hasson believes that people think the Risko-Godfrey fight wasn't on the level doesn't make it so.
(It was also pretty obvious from some of the rest of his writing that he isn't exactly neutral about Godfrey. )

What really sounds bizarre is that Chuck Hasson talks as if it has special meaning that the people who he claims believe this are from Philadelphia.

Well the Risko-Godfrey fight was in Ebbetts field, which is Brooklyn, New York!

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 10:23**

Well I would just about bet my life that Chuck Hasson knows more about Philadelphia boxing and Philadelphia fighters than pretty much anyone in the world and he has a huge, huge archive of Philadelphia newspaper clips!!!

Gains was starting to come into form when he faced Godfrey and had fought some pretty good opponents, which he won and lost some, including a knockout over Max Schmeling. I'm not sure when he was first ranked by Ring, but I'll find it out.

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 12:41**

Fighting in Europe, Larry Gains had wins over two future heavyweight champions--

Max Schmeling and Primo Carnera.

He worked as a sparring partner for Dempsey before one of the Tunney fights.

As did Tommy Loughran.

In Europe, Gains helped train and teach European fighters, including Paulino Uzcudun.

Larry Gains' autobiography, The Impossible Dream, has a sad title.

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 20:07**

WHY THESE FIGHTERS ARE NOT ALL TIME GREATS

JACK DEMPSEY- TRIED TO FIGHT HARRY WILLS BUT THE PROMOTERS DID NOT ALLOOW. BUT DEMPSEY SHOULD STILL BE BLAMED- HE SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT WILLS IN A STREET FIGHT

JACK JOHNSON- WAS MORE BUSY fornicating WHITE WOMEN THEN GIVE TITLE SHOTS TO LEGIT CONTENDERS

LENNOX LEWIS- SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT IKE IBEAUBUCHI. IKE WENT TO PRISON BUT LEWIS SHOULD HAVE TRIED TO GET IKE OUT OF PRISON. IF THAT WOULDM'T HAVE WORKED THAN LEWIS SHOULD HAVE TAKEN A BULLDOZER, BROKEN IN THE PRISON AND THEN FIGHT IBEAUBUCHI.

MUHAMMAD ALI-- SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT STEVENSON WHO WAS AN AMATEUR BUT ALI SHOULD HAVE FORCED HIM TO TURN PROFESSIONAL OR GO TO HIS HOUSE TO BEAT HIM.

THAT'S WHY I SAY JACK DEMPSEY, MUHAMMAD ALI, LENNOX LEWIS AND JACK JOHNSON ARE OVERRATED AND DO NOT DESERVE TO BE RATED AS ALL TIME TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS

WHETHER THE PROMOTERS WEREN'T INTERSTED, OR SOMEONE WAS AN AMTEUR OR SOMEONE WAS IN PRISON- LEWIS, ALI, DEMPSEY AND JOHNSON NEVER FOUGHT THESE CAPABLE FIGHTERS AND THEREFORE ARE NOT ALL TIME GREATS

Posted: **22 Jul 2006, 20:08**

dmt wrote:WHY THESE FIGHTERS ARE NOT ALL TIME GREATS

JACK DEMPSEY- TRIED TO FIGHT HARRY WILLS BUT THE PROMOTERS DID NOT ALLOOW. BUT DEMPSEY SHOULD STILL BE BLAMED- HE SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT WILLS IN A STREET FIGHT

JACK JOHNSON- WAS MORE BUSY fornicating WHITE WOMEN THEN GIVE TITLE SHOTS TO LEGIT CONTENDERS

LENNOX LEWIS- SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT IKE IBEAUBUCHI. IKE WENT TO PRISON BUT LEWIS SHOULD HAVE TRIED TO GET IKE OUT OF PRISON. IF THAT WOULDM'T HAVE WORKED THAN LEWIS SHOULD HAVE TAKEN A BULLDOZER, BROKEN IN THE PRISON AND THEN FIGHT IBEAUBUCHI.

MUHAMMAD ALI-- SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT STEVENSON WHO WAS AN AMATEUR BUT ALI SHOULD HAVE FORCED HIM TO TURN PROFESSIONAL OR GO TO HIS HOUSE TO BEAT HIM.

THAT'S WHY I SAY JACK DEMPSEY, MUHAMMAD ALI, LENNOX LEWIS AND JACK JOHNSON ARE OVERRATED AND DO NOT DESERVE TO BE RATED AS ALL TIME TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS

WHETHER THE PROMOTERS WEREN'T INTERSTED, OR SOMEONE WAS AN AMTEUR OR SOMEONE WAS IN PRISON- LEWIS, ALI, DEMPSEY AND JOHNSON NEVER FOUGHT THESE CAPABLE FIGHTERS AND THEREFORE ARE NOT ALL TIME GREATS

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Colorline - what was worse (Dempsey Tunney)

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