BoxRec

RazorKO wrote:

barry wrote:Heavyweight

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes
11. Joe Frazier
12. Max Baer
13. Sam Langford
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Gene Tunney
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Peter Jackson
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Tommy Burns

Great list, Barry is only the person who sees sense and knows that Lewis does not deserve to be in the top 20.

Your personal grudge agasint everything European is becoming a bit boring.

Barry lists 16 US Americans, 2 Canadians, one Kiwi, and one fellow from the Virgin Islands. I don't think so. Lennox Lewis and Max Schmeling are missing on barry's list.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Dempsey
6. Frazier
7. Johnson
8. Tyson
9. Marciano
10. Sonny Liston
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Jim Jeffires
13. Sam Langford
14. Floyd Patterson
15. Bob Fitzsimmons
16. Gerrie Coetzee
17.Riddick Bowe
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Ken Norton
20. Max Baer

pundit wrote:

RazorKO wrote:

barry wrote:Heavyweight

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes
11. Joe Frazier
12. Max Baer
13. Sam Langford
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Gene Tunney
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Peter Jackson
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Tommy Burns

Great list, Barry is only the person who sees sense and knows that Lewis does not deserve to be in the top 20.

Your personal grudge agasint everything European is becoming a bit boring.

Barry lists 16 US Americans, 2 Canadians, one Kiwi, and one fellow from the Virgin Islands. I don't think so. Lennox Lewis and Max Schmeling are missing on barry's list.

You must of misread my posts, I have stated numerous times that both Ricky Hatton and David Haye are 2 of my favourite current fighters. I also admire fighters like Bruno, John Conteh, Bugner, Boza-Edwards, Benn, Eubank. All British fighters.

RazorKO wrote:

pundit wrote:

RazorKO wrote: Great list, Barry is only the person who sees sense and knows that Lewis does not deserve to be in the top 20.

Your personal grudge agasint everything European is becoming a bit boring.

Barry lists 16 US Americans, 2 Canadians, one Kiwi, and one fellow from the Virgin Islands. I don't think so. Lennox Lewis and Max Schmeling are missing on barry's list.

You must of misread my posts, I have stated numerous times that both Ricky Hatton and David Haye are 2 of my favourite current fighters. I also admire fighters like Bruno, John Conteh, Bugner, Boza-Edwards, Benn, Eubank. All British fighters.

Sorry. In this case I take everything back and claim the opposite.

The Great John L wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:young beat a weight drained past his prime george foreman who was nowhere near the killer he was in 72-74.

Weight drained?!!? Nowhere near what he was in 72-74?!!? Geeez, this is almost as good as the Tyson “past his prime at 24” logic…

i meant dehydrated.


its clear on film that if you watch the films........the 1976-77 foreman is nothing compared to the 72-74 ferocious killer foreman. foreman was never the same after losing to muhammad ali in 74. he took 2 years off and he came back.....he wasnt the same

RazorKO wrote:1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Dempsey
6. Frazier
7. Johnson
8. Tyson
9. Marciano
10. Sonny Liston
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Jim Jeffires
13. Sam Langford
14. Floyd Patterson
15. Bob Fitzsimmons
16. Gerrie Coetzee17.Riddick Bowe
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Ken Norton
20. Max Baer

coetzee in the top 20? what are u on crack??

weaver TKO 13 coetzee
tate 15 unanimous coetzee
page KO 8 coetzee

Decagon wrote:Just because he fucked up by putting Baer in his top 20 doesn't mean he should fuck up again by putting Floyd Patterson on it.

I suppose I would "improve" my list by inserting Jimmy Young at 16 and dropping Max Baer off the list

dr_devious wrote:

Decagon wrote:Just because he fucked up by putting Baer in his top 20 doesn't mean he should fuck up again by putting Floyd Patterson on it.

I suppose I would "improve" my list by inserting Jimmy Young at 16 and dropping Max Baer off the list

My suggestion is: don't include either in the top 20. There are too many other deserving guys.

But then: lists are views, and if you think Baer should be there then that's what you think, and this is fine as long as you can argue your case.

Cheers, P

>>>Your personal grudge agasint everything European is becoming a bit boring.<<<

Well...when there is actually some fighters that are worthy of ranking ahead of some of the true all-time greats I will do so, but sorry...guess like Phil Scott don't make the cut!


>>>Barry, how come consistency isn't a part of your rankings?<<<

You rate Jimmy young in your top twenty and you want to talk consistency,,,learn what consistency is and then maybe we will debate it.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

RazorKO wrote:1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Dempsey
6. Frazier
7. Johnson
8. Tyson
9. Marciano
10. Sonny Liston
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Jim Jeffires
13. Sam Langford
14. Floyd Patterson
15. Bob Fitzsimmons
16. Gerrie Coetzee17.Riddick Bowe
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Ken Norton
20. Max Baer

coetzee in the top 20? what are u on crack??

weaver TKO 13 coetzee
tate 15 unanimous coetzee
page KO 8 coetzee

Blockbuster, you should happy I have Marciano in the top list!

Btw Coetzee was green when he fought both Tate and Weaver. Gerrie in those fights hardly threw a jab and was just a straight forward brawler....and he still gave Tate a close fight and an exhastuad Gerrie had Weaver nearly down and out in the 8th round as well as leading on the scorecards prior to the stoppage.

Decagon wrote:

RazorKO wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:




coetzee in the top 20? what are u on crack??

weaver TKO 13 coetzee
tate 15 unanimous coetzee
page KO 8 coetzee

Blockbuster, you should happy I have Marciano in the top list!

Btw Coetzee was green when he fought both Tate and Weaver. Gerrie in those fights hardly threw a jab and was just a straight forward brawler....and he still gave Tate a close fight and an exhastuad Gerrie had Weaver nearly down and out in the 8th round as well as leading on the scorecards prior to the stoppage.

Why would anyone be glad about your list? It's just a pile of crap that we laugh at.

I for one dont give a monkeys ass if u dont like it.

RazorKO wrote:

Decagon wrote:

RazorKO wrote: Blockbuster, you should happy I have Marciano in the top list!

Btw Coetzee was green when he fought both Tate and Weaver. Gerrie in those fights hardly threw a jab and was just a straight forward brawler....and he still gave Tate a close fight and an exhastuad Gerrie had Weaver nearly down and out in the 8th round as well as leading on the scorecards prior to the stoppage.

Why would anyone be glad about your list? It's just a pile of crap that we laugh at.

I for one dont give a monkeys ass if u dont like it.

Gerrie Coetzee the 16th best heavyweight EVER???

Christ almighty, I am not even sure he would even be the 16th best heavy in the period he was active.

What objective criteria did you use to come up with that ranking?

>>>Gerrie Coetzee the 16th best heavyweight EVER???<<<

That's almost as bad as having Jimmy Young ranked 16th best ever heavyweight!!!

barry wrote:>>>Gerrie Coetzee the 16th best heavyweight EVER???<<<

That's almost as bad as having Jimmy Young ranked 16th best ever heavyweight!!!

Bazza! How are you? No PM's from you for a while but I live in hope.

Yeah, Young at 16 is a bit high for me too but he's head and shoulders above dear old Gerrie. Actually, I like Coetzee; he always seemed honest and level-headed when interviewed. And he COULD fight a bit too. I was over the moon when he smashed that horrible excuse for a man Michael Dokes. But, overall, his career doesn't really stand out from any of the other short term 'champs' of his era.

exhastuad Gerrie had Weaver nearly down and out in the 8th round as well as leading on the scorecards prior to the stoppage.

actually mike weaver was ahead on the judges scorecards after 12

Collins2000 wrote:

RazorKO wrote:

Decagon wrote:Why would anyone be glad about your list? It's just a pile of crap that we laugh at.

I for one dont give a monkeys ass if u dont like it.

Gerrie Coetzee the 16th best heavyweight EVER???

Christ almighty, I am not even sure he would even be the 16th best heavy in the period he was active.

What objective criteria did you use to come up with that ranking?

IMHO I thought Gerrie was a great fighter but was looked down upon because of the aparthied/ injustice in South Africa.

Gerrie was green until he fought in America and had American handlers who taught him how to change his style, but whe he fought Tate and Weaver he hardly threw a jab and was just a highly agressive brawler......and he still gave Tate a close fight and Weaver a major battle.
Coetzee stil had the same old style when he fought Snipes, after the fight Renaldo himself thought he had lost but the verdict went to Snipes which ranks up as the worst decision given in the history of the sport.

Only after Snipes did he start to become a skilled boxer and he showed it in his fights with LeDouz, the fight with Pinklon Thomas which I thought Coetzee deserved as he took most of the early rounds to win and of course the Dokes fight which showed him at his best. But after the Dokes fight he went back to his old style of non-jabbing brawler against Page and Coetzee should of continued to fight in the USA with U.S handlers.

It appears Foreman actually had a fairly impressive workrate in his comeback. For instance Foreman threw more punches against Holyfield and Schultz than Holyfield did in either of his fights against Lennox Lewis. Foreman no doubt lacked the power he used to have but he still threw quite a few punches.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:...Foreman threw more punches against Holyfield and Schultz than Holyfield did in either of his fights against Lennox Lewis.

For most of his HW fights Holyfield would hardly be considered a high volume puncher.

RazorKO wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

RazorKO wrote:Why would anyone be glad about your list? It's just a pile of crap that we laugh at.

I for one dont give a monkeys ass if u dont like it.

Gerrie Coetzee the 16th best heavyweight EVER???

Christ almighty, I am not even sure he would even be the 16th best heavy in the period he was active.

What objective criteria did you use to come up with that ranking?

RazorKO wrote:IMHO I thought Gerrie was a great fighter but was looked down upon because of the aparthied/ injustice in South Africa.

If I am reading this correctly, you think the reason we don't rate Coetzee as highly as you is because of our feelings regarding apartheid. Well apartheid was a disgrace but I don't use it as a yardstick to judge Coetzee.

RazorKO wrote:Gerrie was green until he fought in America and had American handlers who taught him how to change his style, but when he fought Tate and Weaver he hardly threw a jab and was just a highly agressive brawler......and he still gave Tate a close fight and Weaver a major battle.
Coetzee stil had the same old style when he fought Snipes, after the fight Renaldo himself thought he had lost but the verdict went to Snipes which ranks up as the worst decision given in the history of the sport.

Victories over Tate and Weaver would certainly look better on his record than losses, however ignoring all the IFs and BUTs the fact is both beat him clearly so there isn't much there to add to his 'greatness'.

I agree the Snipes decision was bad, but even had it gone the other way, a close points win over someone like Snipes isn't really gonna get someone in the top 16 heavyweights ever. Unless you are using different criteria to most of the rest of us.

RazorKO wrote:Only after Snipes did he start to become a skilled boxer and he showed it in his fights with LeDouz, the fight with Pinklon Thomas which I thought Coetzee deserved as he took most of the early rounds to win and of course the Dokes fight which showed him at his best. But after the Dokes fight he went back to his old style of non-jabbing brawler against Page and Coetzee should of continued to fight in the USA with U.S handlers.

So, even though he didn't have the ability to use his best assets you still think he is one of the greatest heavies EVER.

Too many IFs and BUTs and wishful thinking, Razor. If we made those sort of allowances for every fighter, we could come up with a top 10 that included the likes of Mike Weaver, Frank Bruno and Iron Fekkin Hague.

Just for fun - annual top ranked in Boxrec Ratings

10 Top Ranks:
Louis Joe 1935,1937-1942,1946-1948
Muhammad Ali 1964-1967,1972,1974-1978

7 Top Ranks:
Johnson 1902-1904,1906-1909

6 Top Ranks:
Jackson 1886-1891
Larry Holmes 1979-1984
Lennox Lewis 1997-2003

5 Top Ranks:
Wills 1915-1919
Gene Tunney 1924-1928
Floyd Patterson 1956-1958,1960-1961

4 Top Ranks:
Jeffries 1898-1901
Rocky Marciano 1952-1955
Riddick Bowe 1992,1994-1996

3 Top Ranks:
Morrisey 1852-1853,1858
Sullivan 1883-1885
Choynski 1892,1894-1895
Max Schmeling 1930-1931,1936
Jimmy Bivins 1943-1945
Ezzard Charles 1949-1951
Joe Frazier 1968-1971
Mike Tyson 1987-1989
Evander Holyfield 1990-1991,1993

I know some greats will not make the list, but I chose to only rank fighters that I have seen at least two complete fights on film of. It would be too dificult to rank them otherwise. Records alone don't give me a good enough means to decide in the closer cases. I need records and footage. After, all these guys were great. So I apologize in advance.
1.Marciano
2.Louis
3.Dempsey
4.Walcot
5.Liston
6.Holmes
7.Holyfield
7.Charles
8.Ali
9.Tyson
10.Foreman
11.Frazier
12.Johnson
13.Tunney
14.Norton
That's all I got right now

chance wrote:I know some greats will not make the list, but I chose to only rank fighters that I have seen at least two complete fights on film of. It would be too dificult to rank them otherwise. Records alone don't give me a good enough means to decide in the closer cases. I need records and footage. After, all these guys were great. So I apologize in advance.
1.Marciano
2.Louis
3.Dempsey
4.Walcot
5.Liston
6.Holmes
7.Holyfield
7.Charles
8.Ali
9.Tyson
10.Foreman
11.Frazier
12.Johnson
13.Tunney
14.Norton
That's all I got right now

I dont understand how Ali can be behind Walcott, Charles, Holy, Liston (2 losses to Ali), Marciano and Dempsey. Also Foreman should be infront of Iron Mikey. Johnson is too low.

your right, foreman should be above tyson. Mostly for what he did in his second stint at heavyweight, winning the title again at such advanced age. Without that I would still put tyson ahead, but good point. Liston probably could move down some as well, but i do think that he threw the fight with ali, maybe both of them. I stand firm that ali was not a top five heavy weight. He could only move to his left while throwing punches, got away with a ton of illegal tactics, couldn't throw a body punch, looked bad against a slew of ordinary and less than ordinary fighters, couldn't really punch, and his greatest wins were against other one dimensional fighters, no offense to foreman and Frazier. Think about the fact that when he and Frazier met when they were both closest to their peak, Frazier won. Think about that, a guy who was almost exclusively a left hooker, beat a guy who always circled to the left! Ali should also have multiple losses to norton on his record in my opinion.

Decagon wrote:Every now and then, some retard'll come around and rank Ali #8 or #11 or something just to get attention.