Middleweights: Roy Jones Jr vs Marvin Hagler

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Post by Syntax Error »

ringsider wrote:Delusional Hagler nut huggers. Geesh look at how Sugar Ray beat him....by boxing, his foor work. Hagler just plodded around following Ray. With Jones in his prime it would have been worse. Hagler ain't catching anyone in a boxing match, where foot work counts.....he was just aweful in that department. :TU: :TU: :box:
Hagler was slower than Frank Bruno in shackles by 1987.

In his prime, he was not a plodder in that respect.
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Post by The Great John L »

silkov wrote:... Roy never had the best of chins…
And what exactly do you base this on? All those KDs he suffered throughout his career? He clearly got stomped after dropping back down from HW, but prior to that, what tells you that he “never had the best of chins”? This comment is even less justified than basing any assessment of Hagler on how he performed against Leonard.
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Post by ringsider »

You guys are in such denial. You keep saying Hagler was past his prime when he fought Sugar Ray....Well I got news for you, Sugar Ray was past his prime too....and on top of that he was coming up in weight to fight Hagler. Hagler was a plodder, in every fight he was ever in.........get over it..... when he had his chance to be great he dropped the ball, and got beat. Hagler was a goofy ass southpaw who reigned in the MW divison when there were no middle weights. He made a career out of fighting blown up welters and LMW. Why had there been any decent MW around during the 1980s we would not even have to hear the name Marvin Hagler. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Post by silkov »

ringsider wrote:You guys are in such denial. You keep saying Hagler was past his prime when he fought Sugar Ray....Well I got news for you, Sugar Ray was past his prime too....and on top of that he was coming up in weight to fight Hagler. Hagler was a plodder, in every fight he was ever in.........get over it..... when he had his chance to be great he dropped the ball, and got beat. Hagler was a goofy ass southpaw who reigned in the MW divison when there were no middle weights. He made a career out of fighting blown up welters and LMW. Why had there been any decent MW around during the 1980s we would not even have to hear the name Marvin Hagler. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Shouldnt you be painting your nails or something like that!... 8) :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :wink: 8)
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Post by ringsider »

BS, look at his footwork vs Vito A. :roll: :roll:
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Post by sockdolager »

cough, cough, retard, cough! :roll:
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Post by walshb »

Styles make fights and if Hagler had trouble with Duran's cuteness and skill, he will have it a lot tougher with Jones. The fact that Marvin did not have real one punch power like say McClellan or Jackson means that it wil be hard for him to KO Jones. He will need to really trap Jones and break him down. Jones I think will be too slippy and will be hitting Hagler with blinding speed and decent power, enough to make Marvin think. I see a UD for Jones over 12. Over 15 it's a little less likely
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Post by Ezzard »

Decagon wrote:Hagler didn't have much trouble with Duran at all. He just started slow, and the judges were VERY kind to Duran.
In some ways this is what happened in the Leonard fight only Hagler didn't have those last 3 rounds to turn it around. Had Hagler started livelier and not sat back for 3 rounds he could/would have got the decision.

If the fight is 15 Marvin takes Roy.
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Post by Neo »

Decagon wrote:Hagler didn't have much trouble with Duran at all. He just started slow, and the judges were VERY kind to Duran.
Excellent point. It always amazes me that most seem to think that Hagler struggled wuth Duran. I think the fight was very good, two practitioners at their best with Hagler winning clearly.
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Post by Senya13 »

Anybody who thinks Jones would be running circles around Hagler, simply doesn't have any idea about Jones' way of fighting. Same thing about those who think 15 rounds will do any difference. Outside of 1st Tarver fight, there wasn't any other where Jones got visibly tired as rounds went by. No breathing with open mouth, no plodding, no throwing fewer and fewer punches.
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Post by Ezzard »

Senya13 wrote:Anybody who thinks Jones would be running circles around Hagler, simply doesn't have any idea about Jones' way of fighting. Same thing about those who think 15 rounds will do any difference. Outside of 1st Tarver fight, there wasn't any other where Jones got visibly tired as rounds went by. No breathing with open mouth, no plodding, no throwing fewer and fewer punches.
But he was never in with anyone who pressed him like Hagler would. Hagler was far more accurate than anyone Jones faced. Roy is going to take far more punishment in this fight than in any of his others.
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Post by Senya13 »

1) Hagler was not more accurate than Hopkins or Toney.

2) Hagler never met a puncher of Jones caliber, who combined top-notch punching power (higher than Hearns' or Mugabi's) with accuracy of laser guidance missile and very high punching work-rate (at 160-168lb).

3) Jones was a top-notch counter-puncher, bobbing and weaving in a manner at least as effective, as that of young Duran or Tyson. He was as hard to be hit cleanly at close range as he was at distance. While he has proven a lot of times, he could create enough distance and find opening easily to land on target, no matter how much you bob, weave, duck, slip, block, or hold and hit.
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Post by Senya13 »

1) Any claim about Jones relying in his defense on excessive foot movement (call it fleet footedness if you wish, some people call it bicycle) is not backed up by anything.
2) Any claim about Jones relying purely on his reflexes, and not on top-notch defensive skills, is not backed up by anything. Watch Jones working at close range, where reflexes don't help much.
3) Any claim about Jones not showing bobbing and weaving in Glen Johnson fight is not backed up by evidence - the video of the fight. Anybody who doubts it should just put it on and watch 1st round in slow motion as an example. If that still doesn't persuade you, and you have enough time, you can watch the remaining rounds in slow motion as well.
4) Any claim about Jones blocking his line of fight on the ropes, is not backed up by evidence (other than 1st Tarver fight), as can be seen by his head and torso movement in accordance with his opponent's movements to use arms, shoulders, and angles and levels to minimize the possibility of getting hit flush.
5) Any claim about Hagler of the same age as Toney or Hopkins (so you don't compare them while already over-the-hill with pre-Mugabi Hagler) being a more accurate puncher, with better timing and precision, is not backed up by evidence. If you wanna pull out Sibson, I'll pull out Glen Johnson for Hopkins and Iran Barkley for Toney, examples just from the top of my head.
6) Any claim about Hearns being a harder puncher than Jones at any weight from middleweight and above, is not backed up by anything. Jones has a lot more one-punch knockdowns and knockouts statistics than Hearns, he also has stoppages of Tate, Malinga and Sosa all of which had better chins than anyone Hearns stopped at 160lb and higher.
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Post by The Great John L »

Obviously, Jones was a pretty hard puncher, even at LH. Whether or not he punched harder than Hearns can be debated, but his KO of a fighter the caliber of Virgil Hill at LH with a single body punch is proof enough that he could punch pretty hard. As I recall, Hearns couldn’t stop Hill when they fought.
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Post by Senya13 »

Clean KO's? You not one of those persons who think that supposed 44 KO's (no TKO's) of Lamar Clark make him the hardest-punching heavyweight in history? Which of course is pure nonsence (not to mention, that, as I cleared up recently, they were several TKO's among them).
What do Cuevas, Duran or Roldan have to do with comparison of punching power? With no disrespect to these three, none of them had the chins of Tate (12 rounds with Julian Jackson, 23 rounds with Kiwanuka, 10 rounds with Gannon), Malinga (12 rounds with Lindell Holmes, 12 rounds with Eubank, 22 rounds with Benn) or Sosa (best chin in boxing several months prior to meeting with Jones).
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Post by The Great John L »

Senya13 wrote:What do Cuevas, Duran or Roldan have to do with comparison of punching power? With no disrespect to these three, none of them had the chins of Tate (12 rounds with Julian Jackson, 23 rounds with Kiwanuka, 10 rounds with Gannon), Malinga (12 rounds with Lindell Holmes, 12 rounds with Eubank, 22 rounds with Benn) or Sosa (best chin in boxing several months prior to meeting with Jones).
Tate, Malinga and Sosa had better chins than Duran!??! :o
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Post by Senya13 »

Duran didn't go the distance with Julian Jackson, Benn, Kiwanuka, Gannon, Holmes or Eubank, and he was never declared by the Ring magazine the best chin in boxing that I know of. Duran's chin wasn't proven enough against big punchers at 160lb or above to make claim of better chin at these weights (160, 168 and 175 respectively) than the aforementioned fighters.
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Post by Senya13 »

I'm not debating Duran's chin in pound for pound sense.
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Post by Ezzard »

Senya13 wrote:1) Hagler was not more accurate than Hopkins or Toney.

2) Hagler never met a puncher of Jones caliber, who combined top-notch punching power (higher than Hearns' or Mugabi's) with accuracy of laser guidance missile and very high punching work-rate (at 160-168lb).

3) Jones was a top-notch counter-puncher, bobbing and weaving in a manner at least as effective, as that of young Duran or Tyson. He was as hard to be hit cleanly at close range as he was at distance. While he has proven a lot of times, he could create enough distance and find opening easily to land on target, no matter how much you bob, weave, duck, slip, block, or hold and hit.
1) is a complete nonsense

2) is your opinion and not one shared by many others... If Jones commits to power and plants his feet then Hagler is going to win because very few are as durable, and most defintiely Jones is nowhere near.

With your credibility at a low point I'll do my best give you the benefit of the doubt on point 3)
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Post by Neo »

Ezzard wrote:
Senya13 wrote:1) Hagler was not more accurate than Hopkins or Toney.

2) Hagler never met a puncher of Jones caliber, who combined top-notch punching power (higher than Hearns' or Mugabi's) with accuracy of laser guidance missile and very high punching work-rate (at 160-168lb).

3) Jones was a top-notch counter-puncher, bobbing and weaving in a manner at least as effective, as that of young Duran or Tyson. He was as hard to be hit cleanly at close range as he was at distance. While he has proven a lot of times, he could create enough distance and find opening easily to land on target, no matter how much you bob, weave, duck, slip, block, or hold and hit.
1) is a complete nonsense

2) is your opinion and not one shared by many others... If Jones commits to power and plants his feet then Hagler is going to win because very few are as durable, and most defintiely Jones is nowhere near.

With your credibility at a low point I'll do my best give you the benefit of the doubt on point 3)
Okay, maybe Senya1 takes it a bit too far but prime Jones was all wrong for Hagler and Hagler is the man who untroduced me to boxing. Jones was just a wrong style and he will do what needs to be done to eke a decision here. We do not need to demean either Hagler or Jones to predict the outcome. Jones brings more on the table than any other fighter for Hagler; speed, power, elusiveness, spoiling tactics, and he was as fit (prime Jones)as Hagler.
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Post by The Great John L »

Terence wrote:As for the Hill scenario - predictably brought up - well Hearns is tall and Jones slightly smaller. The rub? Hill was doing well with the jab and Jones dipped his knees and landed a body shot to finish the fight. He did not crack the chin of Hill, only his aged body.
So I guess you’re saying that you don’t have to punch hard to score a KO with a body shot!??! As I recall Hearns couldn’t put Hill out with either a head shot or body shot.

And as I said before, I don’t know who hit harder, Hearns or Jones, but am simply pointing out that Jones had pretty damn good power even at LH.
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Post by Eric the Viking »

Terence wrote:As for the Hill scenario - predictably brought up - well Hearns is tall and Jones slightly smaller. The rub? Hill was doing well with the jab and Jones dipped his knees and landed a body shot to finish the fight. He did not crack the chin of Hill, only his aged body.
C'mon, Terence, turn off the bias just for a little while, willya? Hill wasn't landing shit with the jab - Jones was making him miss nearly everything, and at one point even smacked him with a couple hard jabs of his own (after having thrown none in the fight up to that point) and taunted him with what amounted to an "anything you can do, I can do better" (sorry, Ethel Merman does it better than I can ;)) gesture. Jones basically toyed with him the entire fight and then took him out. Now, the body shot was atypically ferocious even for Jones - but c'mon, to deny that that was one of the hardest single shots in recent memory is just delusional - it was freakish, just *listen* to the sound of it landing, the soundless slo-mo doesn't capture that. And, "aged" Hill? Sure, he was 34, probably a couple years past his LHW prime, and of course coming off a not-all-that-close loss to Michalczewski (but one in which he was out*boxed*, not stopped), but to imply that he was long in the tooth and somehow magically lost all his punch resistance within the space of a year or two in silly. This is a guy who wasn't sliding particularly fast - Virgil was actively fighting for legitimate world titles as early as this past year, ferchrissake.

On the flip side, I don't think anyone who's seen them both in their prime could reasonably argue that Jones was pound-for-pound a harder puncher than Hearns... no shame there, in his prime Hearns was pound-for-pound probably as hard a puncher as anyone in boxing history. But Hearns' best was at welterweight - at MW he hit still damn hard, but the guys he was fighting hit back a lot harder than the welters did, too. I'd say Jones at MW could hit every bit as hard as Hearns, if he set himself - most of the time, however, he didn't need to, and we all know that getting in brawls was not Jones' style. If he could win with speed and minimize the risk of getting nailed, he did. "Hit and don't get hit" - it might not be macho, but it's a pretty damn good recipe for success. And until very recently, I'd say it worked for him pretty well - who got KO'd more at middleweight, Hearns or Jones?

As for Hagler, damn, that's a tough one. I agree with the arguments that Jones was all wrong for the Marvelous one, basically slick and fast like Leonard but harder-punching (OTOH you have to give the edge in all-around ring savvy to Leonard), but I also agree that Hagler - though no speedster - was no plodder, was a very accurate puncher and like all great champions, nearly always found a way to win.

I'd say that, after removing the extreme outlying data points (Senya on the one side and Terence on the other) from our "statistical sample" here, the general consensus is that it would have been a very interesting matchup, though it's not clear whether it would have turned out to be a great *fight*. If Jones had turned out to have a sufficient speed edge (hand and foot speed) he would likely have stayed out of range and smacked Hagler from every weird angle known to man, on his way to a wide decision. On the other hand, if he ever got caught on (or deliberately backed himself into, as he sometimes did - but usually against the lesser fighters) the ropes or if Hagler managed to turn it into more of a brawl (Pazienza-style), that would've been a whole different kettle of fish. To say Hagler KOs Jones in that secnario is too simple - we don't really know what kind of punch resistance Jones had at MW, since his chin was so rarely tested until late in his career, against bigger men. But in that scenario I'd have to give the edge to his Marvelousness.
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Post by Ambling Alp »

All this talk about Jones' power really boils down to this: How effective would it be against Hagler? I don't think he could hurt Hagler at all. They could fight 100 times and he would never come close to a KO against Hagler. Whether he could hit hard enought to make Hagler respect his power and not walk through his punches is what is most debatable.

Jones never fought anyone remotely close to Hagler's ability or the pressure that Hagler would bring. It's true that occasionally Hagler would have an off day (late rounds of Anterfermo fight , early rounds of Duran fight, Geraldo.)

However, assuming that Hagler was at his best, he would break down Jones and probably stop him.
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Post by Senya13 »

1a) I will repeat. There is no evidence to back up claim that Jones relied a lot on excessive foot movement, a-la Leonard, Ali, Pep, etc. He wasn't spending his energy on such useless things, when he could instead use slight in and out movement, sidesteps, and defensive arsenal to protect himself. Not a single fight out of over half a hundred.

1b) The Glen Johnson fight it is clear to anyone who is open for new knowledge, that Jones didn't even attempt to use foot movement in this fight. Not a single time did he rise on his toes and attempted to dance at least one circle around the ring. He was walking around flat-footed all the time. Not because his legs were shot (look at his two other fights after that one), but because he didn't choose to. Anybody who is going to claim than Johnson simply didn't give him space or time to move around, should watch the fight beyond the 1st round (after Johnson took his foot off the accelerator pedal), giving Jones plenty of time to do something. Jones chose to work at close range, using bobbing and weaving style with counter-punching. The episode in which he was knocked out, was a repetition of his usual tactics (that he used in many other bouts, and used several times in this bout as well) - put your hands down, "inviting" the opponent to lead, then pull back slightly or duck to avoid getting hit, and then try to counter. In this case, he was a fraction of a second late with his move to avoid the punch. It had absolutely nothing to do with foot movement or "inept" guard, it was a usual feint from Jones' arsenal (the one you can see old-timers use a lot too).

2) Again, if you are attentive enough and keep your eyes open to see it, you will know that reflexes are not as important at close range as the right technique. Jones used vast arsenal of defensive moves while working up close, you name any move from the book, Jones knew them all and then some. Bobbing, weaving, ducking, slipping, rolling, blocking, parrying, holding, tucking your head on opponent's shoulder. Jones could do that for extensive time in some fights, 30 seconds a round, a minute, two minutes, he could do it non-stop the whole round if he chose to, without any dancing away (you will have hard time finding anything to back up this your claim, which I challenge you to do, name fights and rounds where you saw prime Jones "working briefly at short range then dance away"). If you never saw Jones' a lot better than average infighting skills, you probably wasn't watching it attentively enough, maybe your eyes are not trained to notice these things, I have no idea.

3) I have watched the whole fight at normal speed at least a dozen times, and in slow-motion at least two times.
I won't waste my time with bare words like you seem to be used to do.
Here are several typical episodes: link1 (parrying)
link2 (ducking)

4a) How many times did he get hit flush by Johnson? Take first round, where Johnson was working most intensely, how many punches do you count that landed flush? No compubox silliness, please.

4b) What is a myth is your ability to provide anything other than nonsence, backed up by nothing whatsoever.

4c) My guess is you haven't seen the John Ruiz fight either, if you saw Jones use mobility more than on several seldom occasions in that fight.

5) Nonsence is taking Sibson, Obelmejias, Minter or Scypion as examples of great defensive skills, and thus of high accuracy of Hagler. We also all saw the top-notch accuracy Tommy Hearns showed in two fights vs Barkley. I can pull out more similar examples for both Hopkins and Toney, them looking super precise and accurate versus average or slightly above average defensive fighters.

6) Which solid chins would they be? More solid than Tate's, Malinga's or Sosa's? The thing is Hearns doesn't have even such disputable stoppages as Jones' over Sosa, he simply never even dropped anyone even close in chin department to Merqui Sosa, I'm not even talking about doing that with one punch. Anybody who actually took time to review some Jones' fights at 160 or 168 pounds, would know that when Jones chose to put hurt on people, he could do that at will, with single punches, with either hand. In body punching department Hearns is trailing so far behind, it's not even funny. All he did impressively was stop old blown-up lightweight while being at his peak and fighting at his best weight (light middleweight).

7) As already been said, Hill was wasting his jab, same as every other fighter who tried to tame Jones with their jab, without a single exception. And Jones didn't just dip his knees. He figured that Hill was trying to counter his every punch with his jab. He feinted a false left jab, knowing that Hill would try to counter it immediately, he ducks under Hill's counter-jab and counter-counter's him with a perfectly executed right hook.

8) Duran didn't have at middleweight the chin of 160lb Tate.

9) A bonus thought for you to ponder.
The hardest-hitting welterweight in history was known as a extremely poor puncher in amateurs (155-8 with less than 10 wins by KO).
The hardesthitting middleweight in history (well, argueably, it's G-Man), was not known as a hard puncher in the amateurs.
The hardest-punching flyweight in history (Wilde) wasn't known for freakish punching power, but for top-notch accuracy and timing
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Post by BoxBuzz »

Decagon wrote:I'm not sure I buy the line of thought that Hearns and Mugabi didn't punch as hard as Jones.
That's because the price is logic.....too high a price for me too....
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