MMA - Page 3

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 04 Oct 2006, 09:52

Cage Rage allows it but only from something called Open Guard I believe. Once a fighter is grounded his opponent has to wait for a signal from the referee (putting his hand up in the air) which signals kicks to the head are in play. They basically do this when the grounded fighter is in a position to defend the kicks from the ground. Unless Cage Rage have changed their rules since I went in May that is how it works under their rule.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 04 Oct 2006, 09:54

I believe they changed them just before this show. Although that may not have been the change. There's an explanation of the rules on their website.

That sounds sensible, otherwise someone could get decked and knocked out by a punch them followed up with a brutal head stomp which killed them stone dead.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 04 Oct 2006, 09:57

nickd wrote:
The rear naked choke (often abbreviated RNC) is a chokehold in martial arts applied from an opponent's back. Depending on the context, the term may refer to one of two variations of the technique. Either arm can be used to apply the choke in both cases.

The term rear naked choke likely originated from the technique in Jiujitsu and Judo known as the "Hadaka Jime," or "Naked Strangle." The word "naked" in this context suggests that, unlike other strangulation techniques found in Jiujitsu/Judo, this hold does not require the use of a keikogi ("gi") or training uniform.

The choke has two variations[1]: in one version, the attacker's arm encircles the opponent's neck and then grabs his own biceps on the other arm (see below for details); in the second version, the attacker clasps his hands together instead after encircling the opponent's

Sounds like a triangular arm bar in wrestling or at least the first variant does.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 04 Oct 2006, 10:08

An arm bar involves extending the actual arm not choking the neck.

Search for rear naked choke on wikipedia for a full explanation that was just a snippet I posted.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 04 Oct 2006, 10:09

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I believe they changed them just before this show. Although that may not have been the change. There's an explanation of the rules on their website.

That sounds sensible, otherwise someone could get decked and knocked out by a punch them followed up with a brutal head stomp which killed them stone dead.

Pride allows headstomps even if someone is prone, the ref has to act quickly. But there have been cases where people have had their heads stomped on while already down and out.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 04 Oct 2006, 10:12

nickd wrote: Pride allows headstomps even if someone is prone, the ref has to act quickly. But there have been cases where people have had their heads stomped on while already down and out.

Wanderlei Silve has made a career out of vicious head stomps/soccer kicks (amongst other things..) in Pride - his beat down of Fujita was ferocious.

Elbows are banned in Pride due to their tendancy to cause fight ending cuts, alothough you can elbow in UFC (though just not with the tip I believe).

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 04 Oct 2006, 10:15

nickd wrote:An arm bar involves extending the actual arm not choking the neck.

Search for rear naked choke on wikipedia for a full explanation that was just a snippet I posted.

Ok a triangular choke hold is what I meant, where you hook the forearm across the neck and brace it with the left arm by placing the left arm across and clasping the right shoulder with the knee in the back of the knee of the opponent.

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 04 Oct 2006, 13:09

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Tony Lumb wrote:Pride generally get around 30,000 for their big shows, although it looks very likely that Pride will be out of business in the next 6 months. It was revealed that their backers are effectively the Yakuza, and they've been disowned by their TV network which financed the organisation.

They are holding a PPV in Las Vegas in November but after that their future is up in the air.

Kimbo Slice is a backyard fighter and nothing more. His fight with Sean Gannon was interesting. They agreed beforehand to not allow chokes on the floor, so Gannon got him in a standing guillotine and choked him out.

Gannon had 1 fight in UFC on the back of the internet legend, but was utterly destroyed by Brandon Lee Hinkle. If was a big mistake by UFC; they want mainstream acceptance, then they have a backyard fighter on their card.
Well, cannot find any latest news on this, the latest I've found so far is from June, so maybe this whole thing has blown over.

Have Fuji actually cut their ties with them yet?

I'm sure there's someone out there who is prepared to back Pride, there's too much money at stake for nobody to pick up their contract and give them some exposure.

Was anything actually proven in court about this, or is this all just wild accusations being thrown about by a few websites, or a former disgruntled employee of Pride?

I believe it's an ongoing investigation, I subscribe to The Wrestling observer which covers MMA in depth, and it's been covered extensively in there. They have been dropped by Fuji, but still have their PPV provider. I think Fuji were paying about $2 million per event!

The last couple of events have looked low rent in comparison as they've slashed their production values. that's a shame, because some of those events with the 50ft video walls, and laser shows were mindblowing, there was nothing in the world which compared to those.

It's a long story. Antonio Inoki (who famously fought Muhammed Ali in 1976, which was a very early MMA fight in hindsight) was promoting a rival MMA show on New YEar's eve. This is the biggest night of the year for MMA in Japan, some fights did a 48 rating which is about half the population. Inoki wanted to use Fedor who was contracted to Pride, and still is, but there was a clause that allowed him to fight for other organisations as well. The guy organising the event (not Inoki) was told to pay some unsavoury characters about $2 million to use Fedor. I believe they never used him, but the organiser had to leave the country and didn't return for a couple of years. When he returned, it all came out.

Pride are desperate to get a foothold in the US, seeing it as a vital revenue stream, hence the use of a washed up Tyson to promote them, and they've booked Butterbean v Mark Hunt for the November PPV.

If this event flops, which it probably will as there's UFC and nothing else in the U.S., Pride will almost certainly have to either close or massively scale down, unless they get another network. The K-1 Hero's promotion (who've already taken Sakuraba, the biggest Japanese superstar) and UFC will cherry pick the best fighters, leaving Pride with nothing.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 04 Oct 2006, 13:19

Tony Lumb wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Tony Lumb wrote:Pride generally get around 30,000 for their big shows, although it looks very likely that Pride will be out of business in the next 6 months. It was revealed that their backers are effectively the Yakuza, and they've been disowned by their TV network which financed the organisation.

They are holding a PPV in Las Vegas in November but after that their future is up in the air.

Kimbo Slice is a backyard fighter and nothing more. His fight with Sean Gannon was interesting. They agreed beforehand to not allow chokes on the floor, so Gannon got him in a standing guillotine and choked him out.

Gannon had 1 fight in UFC on the back of the internet legend, but was utterly destroyed by Brandon Lee Hinkle. If was a big mistake by UFC; they want mainstream acceptance, then they have a backyard fighter on their card.
Well, cannot find any latest news on this, the latest I've found so far is from June, so maybe this whole thing has blown over.

Have Fuji actually cut their ties with them yet?

I'm sure there's someone out there who is prepared to back Pride, there's too much money at stake for nobody to pick up their contract and give them some exposure.

Was anything actually proven in court about this, or is this all just wild accusations being thrown about by a few websites, or a former disgruntled employee of Pride?
I believe it's an ongoing investigation, I subscribe to The Wrestling observer which covers MMA in depth, and it's been covered extensively in there. They have been dropped by Fuji, but still have their PPV provider. I think Fuji were paying about $2 million per event!

The last couple of events have looked low rent in comparison as they've slashed their production values. that's a shame, because some of those events with the 50ft video walls, and laser shows were mindblowing, there was nothing in the world which compared to those.

It's a long story. Antonio Inoki (who famously fought Muhammed Ali in 1976, which was a very early MMA fight in hindsight) was promoting a rival MMA show on New YEar's eve. This is the biggest night of the year for MMA in Japan, some fights did a 48 rating which is about half the population. Inoki wanted to use Fedor who was contracted to Pride, and still is, but there was a clause that allowed him to fight for other organisations as well. The guy organising the event (not Inoki) was told to pay some unsavoury characters about $2 million to use Fedor. I believe they never used him, but the organiser had to leave the country and didn't return for a couple of years. When he returned, it all came out.

Pride are desperate to get a foothold in the US, seeing it as a vital revenue stream, hence the use of a washed up Tyson to promote them, and they've booked Butterbean v Mark Hunt for the November PPV.

If this event flops, which it probably will as there's UFC and nothing else in the U.S., Pride will almost certainly have to either close or massively scale down, unless they get another network. The K-1 Hero's promotion (who've already taken Sakuraba, the biggest Japanese superstar) and UFC will cherry pick the best fighters, leaving Pride with nothing.

Sakuraba's career is over, he was admitted to hospital last week with a damage to his vertebrobasilar system, which is responsible for blood flow to the posterior of the brain.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 04 Oct 2006, 13:59

I don't believe Pride will go under. They're still putting on sick cards top to bottom. The last one being one of the best ever. And as far as attendance I think the Las Vegas Pride ticket sales are going pretty well. Thats a great card also.

James Thompson went from Cage Rage to Pride. Pride has been loaning fighters to Cage Rage also, like Ninja and I think Minowa was also over.

A triangle choke is the one you will mostly see fighters perform while on their back, using just their legs. The legs are closed round the neck looking like a triangle. Its a blood choke. What you will see a lot of the time is when a triangle is already secure the arm will be hanging down, so the fighter can grab the arm and turn it into a triangle/armbar combination.

Their is also an arm triangle. Its the one Murilo "Ninja" Rua won with the other night at Cage Rage.

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 04 Oct 2006, 14:02

nickd wrote:
Tony Lumb wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote: Well, cannot find any latest news on this, the latest I've found so far is from June, so maybe this whole thing has blown over.

Have Fuji actually cut their ties with them yet?

I'm sure there's someone out there who is prepared to back Pride, there's too much money at stake for nobody to pick up their contract and give them some exposure.

Was anything actually proven in court about this, or is this all just wild accusations being thrown about by a few websites, or a former disgruntled employee of Pride?
I believe it's an ongoing investigation, I subscribe to The Wrestling observer which covers MMA in depth, and it's been covered extensively in there. They have been dropped by Fuji, but still have their PPV provider. I think Fuji were paying about $2 million per event!

The last couple of events have looked low rent in comparison as they've slashed their production values. that's a shame, because some of those events with the 50ft video walls, and laser shows were mindblowing, there was nothing in the world which compared to those.

It's a long story. Antonio Inoki (who famously fought Muhammed Ali in 1976, which was a very early MMA fight in hindsight) was promoting a rival MMA show on New YEar's eve. This is the biggest night of the year for MMA in Japan, some fights did a 48 rating which is about half the population. Inoki wanted to use Fedor who was contracted to Pride, and still is, but there was a clause that allowed him to fight for other organisations as well. The guy organising the event (not Inoki) was told to pay some unsavoury characters about $2 million to use Fedor. I believe they never used him, but the organiser had to leave the country and didn't return for a couple of years. When he returned, it all came out.

Pride are desperate to get a foothold in the US, seeing it as a vital revenue stream, hence the use of a washed up Tyson to promote them, and they've booked Butterbean v Mark Hunt for the November PPV.

If this event flops, which it probably will as there's UFC and nothing else in the U.S., Pride will almost certainly have to either close or massively scale down, unless they get another network. The K-1 Hero's promotion (who've already taken Sakuraba, the biggest Japanese superstar) and UFC will cherry pick the best fighters, leaving Pride with nothing.
Sakuraba's career is over, he was admitted to hospital last week with a damage to his vertebrobasilar system, which is responsible for blood flow to the posterior of the brain.

I read today that it wasn't was bad as first feared, and he's hoping to fight on New year's Eve. There's no athletic commissions in japan, so don't be surprised if he does.

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 04 Oct 2006, 14:05

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:I don't believe Pride will go under. They're still putting on sick cards top to bottom. The last one being one of the best ever. And as far as attendance I think the Las Vegas Pride ticket sales are going pretty well. Thats a great card also.

They are putting on great cards, but they need a large PPV revenue or major TV backing to exist in their present form, and they don't have it at the moment. I can't imagine the PPV doing more than 100k buys.

Grilling Machine · Post by **Grilling Machine** » 05 Oct 2006, 14:57

The problem with MMA for me, is that it doesn't attract the level of class boxing used to.

Had Tyson decided to learn some holds and have a go back in '95, he'd have cleaned up.
When was it that he made those WWF appearances?

Same with Muay Thai, I've seen some great kickers there, but never a classy puncher.

Martial arts seems to be the choice for those without the skill and dedication to box at world levels.
Jack-of-all-trades fighting if you like.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 05 Oct 2006, 20:23

Some people are better at certain things than others. Some guys are real strong, so they make good grapplers. If they were never able to punch well they can still fight mma, take guys down and grind them out or submit them.

ALL of the Thai boxing world champions where former Muay Thai fighters. A lot where not even champions in Muay Thai, but they could punch so they went to boxing and became successful.

Lots of kickboxers can punch hard. But they don't come to boxing because they don't have all the other skills that make a good boxer. Mainly they have no defensive skills which ae essential. Pele Reid being an example.

ebeneezer · Post by **ebeneezer** » 06 Oct 2006, 04:20

Grilling Machine wrote:The problem with MMA for me, is that it doesn't attract the level of class boxing used to.

Had Tyson decided to learn some holds and have a go back in '95, he'd have cleaned up.
When was it that he made those WWF appearances?

Same with Muay Thai, I've seen some great kickers there, but never a classy puncher.

Martial arts seems to be the choice for those without the skill and dedication to box at world levels.
Jack-of-all-trades fighting if you like.

Even years ago MMA attracted some great talent.
Case in point was Kevin Jackson, a 1992 freestyle westling gold medalist and was still considered one of the best in the world when he was competing in Extreme fighting and the UFC.

Albert Kraus, Mike Zambidis, Andy Sauer and Jerome LeBanner are all Muay Thai guys who have very very classy hands.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Oct 2006, 04:43

Grilling Machine wrote:
Same with Muay Thai, I've seen some great kickers there, but never a classy puncher.

Sorry but you are talking s h i t mate.

Ever heard of Carl (Adrian) Thompson? His apprentiship was served in the Muay Thai ring and as I remember,he was quite the banger in boxing.

Any number of Thai world boxing champions make a nonsence of your comments.

Samart Payakarun for one was a long standing Thai world champ before swithcing codes. I dont think anyone questions his abilities as a boxer.

Khaosai Galaxy's heavy hands owed a great deal to his physical brawn and years spent as a teenage Thai boxer.

'The Ali of The East' Sot Chitlada was no banger but was a mercurial boxer. His skill and ability owe a debt of gratitude to a youth spent in Muay Thai camps.

A more familiar name to most in the west is Paul Briggs. He is involved in a world title shot this weekend but in a previously life he was a Mauy Thai fighter. He can bang a bit, no?

The list goes on and on...

Dont think the odd 'Night of Combat' show you catch on cable TV is representative of Muay Thai/kickboxing on a global scale.

Obviously the talent pool is shallower in kickboxing generally as its a largely an amatuer sport in the country; without the financial clout and longstanding infrastructure of boxing, but please dont make sweeping generalisations because they do not stand up to analysis.

ebeneezer · Post by **ebeneezer** » 06 Oct 2006, 05:31

livingstone cole wrote:Headstomps? Kicking in the head whilst they're on the floor?
Sorry guys, I wuss out on this. Far too violent for my tastes, whilst I appreciate that they're skilled at what they do, what they do seems to be just kicking the shit out of eachother.

Head stomps and kicking while an opponent is down only happens in Pride and Brazilian Vale Tudo.

It doesn't happen in major North American organizations like the UFC and King Of The Cage. Up until 2001 kicking an opponent when he was down was illegal in PRIDE.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Oct 2006, 07:00

Grilling Machine wrote:The problem with MMA for me, is that it doesn't attract the level of class boxing used to.

Had Tyson decided to learn some holds and have a go back in '95, he'd have cleaned up.
When was it that he made those WWF appearances?

Same with Muay Thai, I've seen some great kickers there, but never a classy puncher.

Martial arts seems to be the choice for those without the skill and dedication to box at world levels.
Jack-of-all-trades fighting if you like.

With Tyson's physical gifts, you'd have to fancy that with the right training he would have been a fantastic MMA fighter. He seemed to have a pretty high pain threshold too judging by the licks he took from Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis before succubming. The more open rules which allow you to use strangles, chokes and locks would have suited the propensity for causing pain too you would have thought.

I think it is interesting how much traffic this thread has generated, considering this is a boxing forum, there are a lot of positive comments about MMA coming through, and I can see there's a lot to learn.

Mr Boogaloo · Post by **Mr Boogaloo** » 06 Oct 2006, 11:46

Fascinating thread.

James - next time you're going to Cage Rage, say hello to the ugly reporter with sideburns. Here's the report I did:

http://www.ironlife.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77903

Open guard has been around for a few events and while it's fun to watch and can only happen when a fighter is in a position to defend himself, I personally dislike it.

If you jump over someone's legs when they are on the ground and stamp on their head, you can't expect them to avoid long term damage. It's almost intended to cause long term damage, which is very definitely not the point of the sport in general.

Pride did have trouble with their TV company because of their potentially shady connections, but the sport is so big and accepted over there - it's not the semi-underground *spectacle* that it is seen as in the UK.

- by the way, a few fighters from Cage Rage have been on Pride, Mark Weir, James Thompson and the Brazilians, Evangelista 'Cyborg' Santos and Jean Silva.

If you want to learn more about the sport and events near you (and fornicate in hell you would have a good time at one of them) I would suggest two top quality sources:

Fighters Only magazine - you can buy it in most WHSmiths. I'm biased because I write for them ;) - but if you want to learn more it's a quality place to start. (I'm not trying to sell you something you wouldn't be interested in, honest!)

http://www.fightersonlymag.com/

Online

Check out http://www.cagewarriors.com for their events calendar and forum -where dozens of fighters post - makes for interesting reading LOL

Hello Ebeneezer - please post more on Ironlife if you get the chance

Also - if you want to come and bash me up :) come down to Pancrase London - soon relocating to Bethnel Green

http://www.pancraselondon.com/index2.html

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Oct 2006, 12:07

Thanks for the information, I'm thinking of getting to a few more events, I'm a real novice, but I'd like to see more.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 06 Oct 2006, 12:15

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Thanks for the information, I'm thinking of getting to a few more events, I'm a real novice, but I'd like to see more.

Sounds to me James like you are MMA-curious

Dont be scared by these feelings, just go with the (ken)flo and see what happens..

It can be difficult for a straight up boxing fan to deal with at first but I am sure you will be just fine

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 06 Oct 2006, 13:18

Grilling Machine wrote:The problem with MMA for me, is that it doesn't attract the level of class boxing used to.

Had Tyson decided to learn some holds and have a go back in '95, he'd have cleaned up.
When was it that he made those WWF appearances?

Same with Muay Thai, I've seen some great kickers there, but never a classy puncher.

Martial arts seems to be the choice for those without the skill and dedication to box at world levels.
Jack-of-all-trades fighting if you like.

To be fair, it would've taken a lot more than learning a few holds. He'd have had to train takedown defence and submission avoidance let alone learning submissions. There's far from any guarantee he'd have cleaned up. Plus he'd have to train against leg kicks.

The best boxers to go into MMA would be ones with great natural balance and who can punch from unorthodox angles, a la Chuck Liddell.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 06 Oct 2006, 15:39

I've become a big fan of UFC. The fights you want to see happen, happen. And they happen quickly. Look at Anderson Silva for example - comes across from Pride and absolutely smashes rock chinned Chris Leben in a round. Everyone is left thinking "shit I wonder if Rich Franklin fancies any of that..". So what is coming up at the next UFC event? Silva v Franklin for the middleweight title. It's no nonsense stuff.

Also the reality show on Bravo is 10 times the quality of The Contender. Elimination fights shown in full with no commentary (or sound effects), so refreshing not to feel patronised as a viewer.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 06 Oct 2006, 15:46

Tony Lumb wrote: The best boxers to go into MMA would be ones with great natural balance and who can punch from unorthodox angles, a la Chuck Liddell.

I personally think Lidell would be hopeless as a boxer, his stamina is suspect and he holds his chin up like a novice half the time. I've actually found it relatively dull watching Lidell of late, he'll never allow it to go to the ground and he always outguns his opponent. Time they put him in with a real banger I think, rather than these wrestling/submission experts who can't get near him.

Tony Lumb · Post by **Tony Lumb** » 06 Oct 2006, 16:34

Kilburn wrote:
Tony Lumb wrote: The best boxers to go into MMA would be ones with great natural balance and who can punch from unorthodox angles, a la Chuck Liddell.
I personally think Lidell would be hopeless as a boxer, his stamina is suspect and he holds his chin up like a novice half the time. I've actually found it relatively dull watching Lidell of late, he'll never allow it to go to the ground and he always outguns his opponent. Time they put him in with a real banger I think, rather than these wrestling/submission experts who can't get near him.

My point wasn't that Liddell would be a good boxer, but rather a boxer would need great balance and the ability to throw hard shots from unorthodox positions to have a chance in MMA, which happens to be what Liddell does.

You can't have an orthodox stance and boxing style in MMA because you have to block kicks and shoot attempts.

It's harsh to say he doesn't let fights go to the ground-why would you if you're knocking everybody out and that's not your forte?

The UFC light heavyweight division is a bit moribund at the moment, after Ortiz Liddell 2, not sure what the plan will be. Maybe Forrest Griffin.