BoxRec

Friedie - If Schmeling was only a lighheavyweight when he lost to Daniels, then I agree that it shouldn't be held against him when ranking him soley as a heavyweight. Do you have any sources that say what Schmeling weighed for the Daniels fight? I had thought that he was a heavyweight for a couple of reasons.
1. In a book on Gene Tunney that I read recently, it mentioned that the loss to Daniels temporarily put Schmeling out of the world heavyweight title picture. That implied to me that the fight with Daniels was a heavyweight fight but perhaps it wasn't.
2. Schmeling fought for the German Heavyweight title just two months after the Daniels fight. I had thought that he had already moved up to heavyweight when he fought Daniels, but again maybe he didn't.

This would be interesting to find out out. If there is evidence that Schmeling was indeed only a lightheavyweight when he fought than that changes things.

As for only rating Schmeling for his losses, I'm sure some people do that but on the on the flip side many only count his wins.
Some want to give Schmeling credit for beat Louis (which is fine), a lot of credit for his controversal title win against Sharkey which came via foul, not count the loss to Sharkey because they didn't like the decision, not count the losses to Baer and Hamas because they were supposedly "off nights" which for some reason shouldn't count against Schmeling, not count the loss to Louis because he was "over the hill". Of course those people don't talk about the excuses for the guys that Schmeling beat.

Both wins and losses need to counted when rating him or any other fighter. Of course, the quality of opponents, and at what time in both Schmeling's career and his opponent's career should be taken into consideration.

Ambling Alp wrote:
1. In a book on Gene Tunney that I read recently, it mentioned that the loss to Daniels temporarily put Schmeling out of the world heavyweight title picture.

2. Schmeling fought for the German Heavyweight title just two months after the Daniels fight. I had thought that he had already moved up to heavyweight when he fought Daniels, but again maybe he didn't.

This would be interesting to find out out. If there is evidence that Schmeling was indeed only a lightheavyweight when he fought than that changes things.

1. Max was not in the world rankings back in 1928. He was unknown in the U.S. then, because his american debut took place in November 1928. After a series of 3 wins he faced his first ranked Opponent Johnny Risko on February the 1st, 1929.

2. Only some weeks before the Daniels Fight Max retained his European Lightheavyweight Title against Michele Bonaglia (so he must have weighed in under 175 lb then). So probably he was a bit heavier against Daniels. But still in the Diener Fight Max wheiged in only 178 lb.
So my guess for the Daniels fight is about 176 lb for Schmeling.

In his prime Max wheiged in between 187 and 196 lb.

Ambling Alp wrote:Friedie - If Schmeling was only a lighheavyweight when he lost to Daniels, then I agree that it shouldn't be held against him when ranking him soley as a heavyweight. Do you have any sources that say what Schmeling weighed for the Daniels fight? I had thought that he was a heavyweight for a couple of reasons.

I personally disagree that fights at light-heavyweight not count at al for the assessment of a (later) heavyweight's career. It seems rather artificial to count or dismiss a fight depending on whether the fighters weighed 5 or 10 pounds more or less (but I had this discussion with Alp already).

However, pre-prime fights during a fighter's built-up period should not count much, especially in the 1920s/30s when these fights substituted for an amateuer career. When facing Daniels Schmeling fought once a month, and as Friedie said he didn't take that fight too seriously (he later said that the Daniels fight had tought him a lesson about focus). In these days, a loss in one of these tune-ups did not have the weight of what it would have today (where opponents for prospects are carefully handselected to guarantee a spotless record).

This was all very different when Schmeling entered the elimination tournament for the Tunney succesion. Before the Risko, Uzcudun and Sharkey fights he went through weeklong camps to prepare himself as fully as possible.

P

pundit wrote: Before the Risko, Uzcudun and Sharkey fights he went through weeklong camps to prepare himself as fully as possible.

P

exept for the Risko-Fight you're right....
but on the other hand you could say Max had monthlong camps too ....he didn't fight between April 4th and November 23rd, 1928, preparing for the start of his "american carreer".

IMHO Bowe was declining slowly after the first fight with Holy, only as long as he kept winning most of the people just didn't notice it.

Bowe won the trilogy with Holy, the thing is that Holy had hepatisis during the last match. I believe Bowe was already declining at that time, he was just lucky to catch Evander at the right point and came out as the winner of the trilogy.

Also, Bowe was great inside fighter, but he never bothered much about his defence. With his power and chin it didn't matter... well, as long as his opponents were trying to trade with him. Even Holy made this mistake in the first match - in the rematch he changed strategy and outboxed Bowe quite easily (given the size disadvantage - and I mean the moments when he remembered just to move and jab and not trade inside). It was much easier for Golota who was bigger than Holy and had very good jab as well (long amateur career).

Yes, I agree Bowe probably underestimated Golota and came at career high 250+. This had to be a factor as well - but I believe it was mainly that Golota was bad matchup for Bowe (stylewise) anyway.

gregor wrote:Bowe won the trilogy, the thing is that Holy had hepatisis during the last match. I believe Bowe was already declining at that time, he was just lucky to catch Evander at the right point and came out as the winner of the trilogy.

Also, Bowe was great inside fighter, but he never bothered much about his defence. With his power and chin it didn't matter... well, as long as his opponents were trying to trade with him. Even Holy made this mistake in the first match - in the rematch he changed strategy and outboxed Bowe quite easily (I mean in the moments when he remembered just to move and jab and not trade inside). It was much easier for Golota who was bigger than Holy and had very good jab (probably due to long amateur career).

Yes, I agree Bowe probably underestimated Golota and came at career high 250+. This had to be a factor as well - but I believe it was mainly that Golota was bad matchup for Bowe (stylewise) anyway.

Now this makes much more sense to me than the standard "cream to crap in a few months" story. Bowe was already on his way down when he fought Holy the third and possibly second time, and stylewise Golota was a bad matchup for Bowe.

Ambling Alp wrote: 1. In a book on Gene Tunney that I read recently, it mentioned that the loss to Daniels temporarily put Schmeling out of the world heavyweight title picture. That implied to me that the fight with Daniels was a heavyweight fight but perhaps it wasn't.

This sounds very weird. When Schmeling came to the US a few months after the Daniels fight he was an unknown commodity who had difficulties getting fights (European heavyweights didn't habe a good reputation in the US at the time).

In his autobiography Schmeling writes that people started taking notice when he knocked out journeyman Joe Monte with his trademark right hook. Fortunately for him Tex Rickard was in the audience and exclaimed "what a right hand!", and this got into the papers the next day. Which got him on the path to the eliminator tournament that culminated in his title bout with Jack Sharkey.

Decagon wrote: He defended the European Light Heavyweight Championship in a 15-round bout the month before he lost to Daniels, and wasn't stripped of the light heavyweight titles until after he won the German Heavyweight Championship.

It wasn't quite a 15 round bout. Max knocked out Michele Bonaglia from Italy in the 1st round.

gregor wrote:IMHO Bowe was declining slowly after the first fight with Holy, only as long as he kept winning most of the people just didn't notice it.

Bowe won the trilogy with Holy, the thing is that Holy had hepatisis during the last match. I believe Bowe was already declining at that time, he was just lucky to catch Evander at the right point and came out as the winner of the trilogy.

Also, Bowe was great inside fighter, but he never bothered much about his defence. With his power and chin it didn't matter... well, as long as his opponents were trying to trade with him. Even Holy made this mistake in the first match - in the rematch he changed strategy and outboxed Bowe quite easily (given the size disadvantage - and I mean the moments when he remembered just to move and jab and not trade inside). It was much easier for Golota who was bigger than Holy and had very good jab as well (long amateur career).

Yes, I agree Bowe probably underestimated Golota and came at career high 250+. This had to be a factor as well - but I believe it was mainly that Golota was bad matchup for Bowe (stylewise) anyway.

Let's point attention again to this excellent analysis.