Rocky Marciano vs Evander Holyfield Cruiserweight(195lbs)

[granberry]

Walcott was a solid puncher, he wasn't a big hitter

Some more boxing "knowledge" from someone who never had a fight with his own sister.

[Controversial]

Were you ever hit by Jersey Joe Walcott?

Walcott won the title with a single punch, left hook KO of Ezzard Charles.
Charles was out for well over five minutes.

Walcott knocked Joe Louis down in BOTH of their fights.

Walcott knocked Marciano down in the first round of their title fight.

Marciano took enough to knock out fifty fighters in that fight.

If Walcott couldn't knock him out in that fight with the punches he landed, then it is doubful if anyone ever could.

The Marciano-Walcott first fight was one of the great fights in the history of the heavyweight title.

I hope you never get hit by anyone who hits one one hundredth as hard as Walcott, controversial.

You been hit by Tyson or Foreman? I'd pick Walcott every time if I had the choice. Walcott was a solid puncher, he wasn't a big hitter, hardly comparible to Tyson, Foreman or even Lennox Lewis.

It's not as quite as starightforward as you might think.

Walcott was a mover. He boxed and made his openings. Tyson, Foreman and Lewis were looking to land their big punch from the very start. Walcott's left hook though was as good a KO punch as there was. I'd say his left hook is right up there with Dempsey's and Frazier's.

Whilst the guys you list are more known for their punch power Walcott had a great shot in his arsenal.

I think it is straight forward. Walcott wasn't known for his punch power. You don't have to be a big puncher to KO someone, speed, timing and the other guy not seeing or expecting the punch are what normally sparks people. Henry Cooper floored and badly hurt Ali, that doesn't mean he punched harder than Shavers or Foreman, he just caught Ali right.

My question was to name fighters that Marciano fought that were known for their punch power, Walcotts name doesn't spring to mind IMO. The previous poster (granberry) who thinks that just because Walcott couldn't KO Marciano that no-one could is just ridiculous.

[bill.lockhart]

I see Liston, Foreman, & a prime Ali beating Rocky, maybe. Frazier would give him trouble, but at the end of the day I like Rocky. If Ali couldn't , Holmes wouldn't. Rahman beat Lewis, nuff said. Louis himself said he could never have beaten him. If Rocky could hit you, he would beat you. Liston, I feel the same way about. If Rocky could take Liston & Foreman's bombs he could win those fights as well. Jack Johnson, now their's a guy who might have beaten him. He was tremendous. The thing that made Rocky so great was his spirit. When physically their is nothing left, all you can rely on is your fortitude. To beat him, & nobody ever did, you would have to put your soul on the line. If Holyfield was a warrior, Rocky was the whole damn army.

[granberry]

My question was to name fighters that Marciano fought that were known for their punch power, Walcotts name doesn't spring to mind .

Tell that to Ezzard Charles, Louis, and Marciano.

LOL.

[Ezzard]

You been hit by Tyson or Foreman? I'd pick Walcott every time if I had the choice. Walcott was a solid puncher, he wasn't a big hitter, hardly comparible to Tyson, Foreman or even Lennox Lewis.

It's not as quite as starightforward as you might think.

Walcott was a mover. He boxed and made his openings. Tyson, Foreman and Lewis were looking to land their big punch from the very start. Walcott's left hook though was as good a KO punch as there was. I'd say his left hook is right up there with Dempsey's and Frazier's.

Whilst the guys you list are more known for their punch power Walcott had a great shot in his arsenal.

I think it is straight forward. Walcott wasn't known for his punch power. You don't have to be a big puncher to KO someone, speed, timing and the other guy not seeing or expecting the punch are what normally sparks people. Henry Cooper floored and badly hurt Ali, that doesn't mean he punched harder than Shavers or Foreman, he just caught Ali right.

My question was to name fighters that Marciano fought that were known for their punch power, Walcotts name doesn't spring to mind IMO. The previous poster (granberry) who thinks that just because Walcott couldn't KO Marciano that no-one could is just ridiculous.

My point is that catching "someone right" (the speed, timing, etc....) is what makes a KO puncher. When it comes down to it what else do we have to go on. We see a guy get hit and then we see the effects, everything else is academic.

I'm not sure how Rocky would have dealt with Foreman or Tyson as they threw bomb after bomb. But I'd say Walcott's KO punch was right up there with the best of them as a single shot.

[Controversial]

It's not as quite as starightforward as you might think.

Walcott was a mover. He boxed and made his openings. Tyson, Foreman and Lewis were looking to land their big punch from the very start. Walcott's left hook though was as good a KO punch as there was. I'd say his left hook is right up there with Dempsey's and Frazier's.

Whilst the guys you list are more known for their punch power Walcott had a great shot in his arsenal.

I think it is straight forward. Walcott wasn't known for his punch power. You don't have to be a big puncher to KO someone, speed, timing and the other guy not seeing or expecting the punch are what normally sparks people. Henry Cooper floored and badly hurt Ali, that doesn't mean he punched harder than Shavers or Foreman, he just caught Ali right.

My question was to name fighters that Marciano fought that were known for their punch power, Walcotts name doesn't spring to mind IMO. The previous poster (granberry) who thinks that just because Walcott couldn't KO Marciano that no-one could is just ridiculous.

My point is that catching "someone right" (the speed, timing, etc....) is what makes a KO puncher. When it comes down to it what else do we have to go on. We see a guy get hit and then we see the effects, everything else is academic.

I'm not sure how Rocky would have dealt with Foreman or Tyson as they threw bomb after bomb. But I'd say Walcott's KO punch was right up there with the best of them as a single shot.

Yes it was a great KO but that doesn't make him a big puncher. Tons of fighters with crap KO records have koed fighters, sometimes spectaculaly, that doesn't make them big punchers. Even 'Slapsie Maxie' Rosenbloom who was probably the lightest puncher ever managed to KO people. Foreman telgraphed his punches yet flattened almost everyone, that is power, sheer power, the sort that Shavers had too. Tyson was a mixture of power and lightning speed and combination punching.

You are telling me that if I asked you to name, say the top 20 hardest hitters in heavyweight history you would have Walcotts name in there?

The whole point of this post was about Holyfield and Marciano. Holyfield faced everyone he could, fighters that were at the top of their game, some big punchers and normally much bigger than him. Marciano IMO never faced a young, big punching, decent fighter. He fought good fighters but battle worn, old and ones coming near to the end of their careers. IMO Holyfields chin has been tested by much bigger hitters than Marciano ever fought.

[Controversial]

Walcott was a solid puncher, he wasn't a big hitter

Some more boxing "knowledge" from someone who never had a fight with his own sister.

You can always tell when someone cant back their argument up when they resort to name calling

[Controversial]

My question was to name fighters that Marciano fought that were known for their punch power, Walcotts name doesn't spring to mind .

Tell that to Ezzard Charles, Louis, and Marciano.

LOL.

Well for a start Joe Louis didn't have a granite chin anyway, he was floored several times in his career, once by Jim Braddock who was not a big hitter by any means, ko'ed by Schmeling and rocked by others.

Not forgetting he still beat Walcott in both fights and retired after ko'ing Walcott because he was on the decline. Louis of course fought Marciano 3 and a half years after his initial retirement which goes to show that Louis was no-way near the fighter he was in his prime.

[granberry]

Walcott was a solid puncher, he wasn't a big hitter

Some more boxing "knowledge" from someone who never had a fight with his own sister.

You can always tell when someone cant back their argument up when they resort to name calling

You mean to say you did have a fight with your own sister?

How did it turn out?

[granberry]

Jim Braddock who was not a big hitter by any means,

You have another winner there, controversial.

Braddock was a dangerous right hand puncher throughout his career.

Ask Jimmy Slattery, Max Baer, Joe Louis, Art Lasky, Tommy Farr, Corn Griffin, Tuffy Grifiths, etc.

[The Great John L]

Jim Braddock who was not a big hitter by any means,

You have another winner there, controversial.

Braddock was a dangerous right hand puncher throughout his career.

Ask Jimmy Slattery, Max Baer, Joe Louis, Art Lasky, Tommy Farr, Corn Griffin, Tuffy Grifiths, etc.

You are absolutely right. Braddock wasn’t really outstanding at any one thing, but he could punch pretty hard with his right hand and was also a pretty decent boxer with a good jab and very solid chin. No shame in getting dropped by Braddock.

[Controversial]

Jim Braddock who was not a big hitter by any means,

You have another winner there, controversial.

Braddock was a dangerous right hand puncher throughout his career.

Ask Jimmy Slattery, Max Baer, Joe Louis, Art Lasky, Tommy Farr, Corn Griffin, Tuffy Grifiths, etc.

So you think Braddocks a big puncher now as well Is there anyone you don't think is? How does Braddock beating Baer on points make him a big puncher then?

Corn Griffin? What you smoking? Or do you mean Art Lasky that the huge punching Braddock took a 15 round points decision over, only for Lasky to be stopped in 3 out of his next 4 fights

Your funny, give me some more pearls of wisdem please

[JC]

Jim Braddock who was not a big hitter by any means,

You have another winner there, controversial.

Braddock was a dangerous right hand puncher throughout his career.

Ask Jimmy Slattery, Max Baer, Joe Louis, Art Lasky, Tommy Farr, Corn Griffin, Tuffy Grifiths, etc.

You are absolutely right. Braddock wasn’t really outstanding at any one thing, but he could punch pretty hard with his right hand and was also a pretty decent boxer with a good jab and very solid chin. No shame in getting dropped by Braddock.

Also if you watch the fight again it's a flash KD and Louis is up and fighting before the ref starts counting. Louis may or may not have been "chinny", but too much is read into the Braddock knockdown IMO.

[The Great John L]

Also if you watch the fight again it's a flash KD and Louis is up and fighting before the ref starts counting. Louis may or may not have been "chinny", but too much is read into the Braddock knockdown IMO.

Louis had a solid chin, but tended to fight aggressively which makes it more likely to get hit with a solid shot. Frazier also gets disparaged for his chin, but he fought in your face and was only dropped by Foreman, Bonavena and a clubfighter in one of his first fights. Unfortunately, many people look too much at the simple things like how many times somebody loses, or how many times they are dropped.

I would not call Louis “chinny”. I really hate that term…

[JC]

Also if you watch the fight again it's a flash KD and Louis is up and fighting before the ref starts counting. Louis may or may not have been "chinny", but too much is read into the Braddock knockdown IMO.

Louis had a solid chin, but tended to fight aggressively which makes it more likely to get hit with a solid shot. Frazier also gets disparaged for his chin, but he fought in your face and was only dropped by Foreman, Bonavena and a clubfighter in one of his first fights. Unfortunately, many people look too much at the simple things like how many times somebody loses, or how many times they are dropped.

I would not call Louis “chinny”. I really hate that term…

Yeah sorry bad choice of words I wasn't implying he had a bad chin (or a good chin for that matter) just that the braddock knockdown doesn't prove it one way or the other. I just wanted to comment because it seems to always be the first thing people bring up when they discuss Louis' durability.

[granberry]

Jim Braddock who was not a big hitter by any means,

You have another winner there, controversial.

Braddock was a dangerous right hand puncher throughout his career.

Ask Jimmy Slattery, Max Baer, Joe Louis, Art Lasky, Tommy Farr, Corn Griffin, Tuffy Grifiths, etc.

So you think Braddocks a big puncher now as well Is there anyone you don't think is? How does Braddock beating Baer on points make him a big puncher then?

Corn Griffin? What you smoking? Or do you mean Art Lasky that the huge punching Braddock took a 15 round points decision over, only for Lasky to be stopped in 3 out of his next 4 fights

Your funny, give me some more pearls of wisdem please

Controversial, how did you learn SO MUCH about boxing?

From your sister?

.

[Controversial]

You have another winner there, controversial.

Braddock was a dangerous right hand puncher throughout his career.

Ask Jimmy Slattery, Max Baer, Joe Louis, Art Lasky, Tommy Farr, Corn Griffin, Tuffy Grifiths, etc.

So you think Braddocks a big puncher now as well Is there anyone you don't think is? How does Braddock beating Baer on points make him a big puncher then?

Corn Griffin? What you smoking? Or do you mean Art Lasky that the huge punching Braddock took a 15 round points decision over, only for Lasky to be stopped in 3 out of his next 4 fights

Your funny, give me some more pearls of wisdem please

Controversial, how did you learn SO MUCH about boxing?

From your sister?

.

Whats with your sister fixation? Instead of firing childish insults why not try and back up your throw away remarks with something resembling a decent argument?

Here you go, as the initial debate started because I said Holyfield fought bigger punchers than Marciano ever fought, you can now amaze me with your boxing knowledge.

I will list some of the big punchers Holyfield fought and you list the same amount for Marciano, should be easy for you.

1) Tyson
2) Lewis
3) Foreman
4) Rahman
5) Bowe

So give me 5 big punching opponents of Marciano that tested his chin.

[granberry]

1) Tyson Holyfield butted his way to "wins" over Tyson twice
2) Lewis A slow, glass chinned, timid modern "champion"
3) Foreman who was a decade past his prime
4) Rahman who Holyfield butted (or hit with a baseball bat)
5) Bowe who exposed Holyfield's lack of stamina

Billygoat Holyfield's hardest punch was with his lowered head.

He would never have gottren away with the blatant fouling he did in a time of legitmate boxing.

[Controversial]

1) Tyson Holyfield butted his way to "wins" over Tyson twice
2) Lewis A slow, glass chinned, timid modern "champion"
3) Foreman who was a decade past his prime
4) Rahman who Holyfield butted (or hit with a baseball bat)
5) Bowe who exposed Holyfield's lack of stamina

Billygoat Holyfield's hardest punch was with his lowered head.

He would never have gottren away with the blatant fouling he did in a time of legitmate boxing.

You still didn't answer my question. Hmm maybe because Marciano never fought many big hitters, who weren't past it.

Have you actually ever seen Marciano fight? He was one of the dirtiest fighters ever !! Watch his fight with Don Cockell, he committed every foul you can think of to win. He butted, elbowed, puched low, punched after the bell, gauged, forearmed and pushed. Marciano done a lot of illegal things in the ring and was never warned about them. Hmm I wonder why? Even when he KO'ed Walcott he cracked Walcott again as he was walking off.

Foreman was past his prime, but he could still punch, harder than most even at the age he was. Foreman was never fast or athletic, just pure power.

So try again. Please name 5 big punchers that Marciano fought.

[Controversial]

Billygoat Holyfield's hardest punch was with his lowered head. He would never have gottren away with the blatant fouling he did in a time of legitmate boxing.

Ha ha just spotted that comment. You are criticizing Holyfield for 'blatant fouling' when trying to stick up for 'here comes my elbow' Marciano

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Here you go, as the initial debate started because I said Holyfield fought bigger punchers than Marciano ever fought, you can now amaze me with your boxing knowledge.

I will list some of the big punchers Holyfield fought and you list the same amount for Marciano, should be easy for you.

1) Tyson
2) Lewis
3) Foreman
4) Rahman
5) Bowe

So give me 5 big punching opponents of Marciano that tested his chin.

first of all i dont see what bringing a "puncher list" in this topic has anything to do with it. holyfield was not a puncher, and he is not going to knock marciano out. so why bring this up?


5 big punching opponents that tested his chin?

1. joe louis
2. jersey joe walcott
3. rex layne
4. archie moore
5. carmine vingo- a wild choice, but marciano himself said he had never been hit so hard in his life and i trust marcianos word more than yours cause marciano had a great chin, and the fact vingo hurt him so many times shows you he could hit. comprende?

certainly not as good as holyfields list, but not a bad list either.


people make way to big a deal about big power punches. god i wish marciano would have just knocked valdez and baker out in 2-3 rounds(which he would have btw) just too shut people the fornicate up about this critisism.


whose to say bob satterfield hit harder than archie moore? whose to say?? i know many fighters from that era who fought both satterfield and moore that claimed moore hit harder

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

why even make this topic? holyfield is a steroid junkie and we finally found that out. even with all these steroids he still cant take marciano or many other ATG heavyweight champs for that matter. i may even move holyfield out of my top 20 cause of steroids.

imagine if marciano took steroids? damm imagine what he would do to the heavyweight division

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Foreman was past his prime, but he could still punch, harder than most even at the age he was. Foreman was never fast or athletic, just pure power.

really? cause i seem to remember every ranked contender foreman fought besides moorer, foreman failed to knockout.

but since ur not a hypocrite( ) ill put it in this way..........

louis was past his prime, but he could still punch, harder than most even at the age he was.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

My question was to name fighters that Marciano fought that were known for their punch power, Walcotts name doesn't spring to mind .

walcott could really wack, his name springs to my mind as the obvious choice. i mean walcott could really hit. contempories all spoke highly of walcotts power as did many of the fighters of that era.

check out film, walcotts demonstrates the abilit to knock GREAT fighters flat on there back with just 1 punch.


louis could still hit hard even at 37, and he was a big guy 215lb, lot of force in that punch. check on youtube for his knockout out pat valentino just 1 year prior to marciano fight, you will see he still had a some amo left in the gun.


rex layne 34-1(25ko) was known as a thunderous puncher with that right hand.


archie moore was the all time KO king, and heavyweights tiger ted lowry and hacthetman sheppard who fought all the BIG powerful heavyweights of the 1940s claimed archie moore was the hardest hitter they ever faced.


no once again, holyfield was not a puncher so why bring this up?? wuts the big deal about marciano fighting a puncher? holyfield wasnt one.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Marciano IMO never faced a young, big punching, decent fighter. He fought good fighters but battle worn, old and ones coming near to the end of their careers.

wut is ur definition of decent? does fringe contender 6'5 220lb 29 year old johnny skhor who marciano slaughtered in 6 fit the defintioin??

or perhaps marcianos 1 round annihalation of young 6'3 230lb 42-11(35ko) big bill wilson in 1 round?

actually marciano fought great fighters(yes these were still great fighters i dont care how old they were) and the only reason those fighters came to the end of there careers was being marciano SENT THEM TO IT, he ruined those guys. you must look at marcianos opponents records coming into the marciano fight, rather than post marciano fight.

notice how even 26 year old layne, 20 year old carmine vingo, 23 year old lastarza, 26 year old cockell, 29 year old mathews careers went into horrible droughts to retirement after facing marciano......marciano ruined the young guys as well as the old guys


are u honestly trying to crtisize marciano for not fighting 29 year old 6'3 215lb nino valdez or 28 year old 6'2 220lb bob baker

these names would look good as victims huh?? well then perhaps you should give archie moore more credit cause he flattened these "big young studs"(that marciano never could beat right? ).


would marciano have beaten these "young" powerful decent fighters? maybe maybe not its all opinion.

in my opinion he would have rather easily, for i feel is style is made to destroy these type of fighters and he has more trouble with the speedy slick boxers. again just my opinion. i feel marciano was at a stylistic disadvantage most of his career(lastarza, walcott, charles, moore) and when you put him in with a big slugger(louis, layne) he had easier times.