BoxRec

I don't think we can make any accurate statement about guys outside the top20 from back in the day because we simply can't see footage of them.

Skilled fighters have always been hard to come by in any era. And the wealth of sub-par title opponents and even champions in any era testify to this.

I was talking about Holys general skills Maussa, no his defense wasn't the greastest but his boxing skills were super sharp.

oh

jamesmcdonnell wrote:A couple of examples that may interest some of you.

A few years ago, a magazine by the name of Men's Health, or Health and Fitness, launched a competition to find the fitrest person in the UK, not including sportsmen and women, just orindary people, including those who did and didn't visit the gym.

The person who won it in the end, was an 18 stone builder from Birmingham, a bit lump with a bit of a beer belly and a mohican. He has the best overall combination of flexbility, core strength, power output, cardiovascular fitnes

Also, in America at the moment, there is a new craze, which is a workout based on what removal men do on a regular basis. They reckon it's the most effective all round exercise routine that's been seen yet.

When I moved house recently, I hired a van and two guys to move my stuff, which filled an entire luton van. These two guys, one a polish guy in his 40's, and the other a Mexican American (amateur boxer as it happened, who I had a chinwag with when he noticed me reading boxing news in the van on the way over), carted all my stuff down four flights of stairs, and then up three flights at the other end, and barely even broke a sweat and were not even out of breath.

The polish guy told me that he was a computer programmer, and that when he started the job 6 months before, he weighed 250 lbs, and was really unfit, he was now 180 lbs and in the best shape of his life.

There is definetly something to be said for regular manual labour.

My brother had played for West Wales Under 19's Rugby Union and was very close to the full Under 19's Welsh team (had many a trial/large squad training session). Fittess he has ever been was when he was between jobs and working the bins for 6 months in his early 20's.

Second fittest he has been was a year ago when he went on a 6 month jaunt to India and did no conscious exercise, just had to climb up hills etc (with the altitude) to get food etc - lived it rough. He went there a bit out of shape, came back cut and absolutely trounced me in a 5 miler and before I would hammer him and I was still keeping in shape. No wonder Gurkhas are so hard their everyday life is so tough.

Another little anecdot, toughest sparring session I saw a former WABA finalist at Middleweight have (and he used to have people from various clubs coming down) was when he took on my old man at 44 years of age. My old man had never officially boxed amateur but did do training as a teen/early twenties and sparred with all the boxers.... The coach all those years back did ask him to turn amateur but family commitments etc said no point (he probably still has stuff left in the basement). Had done any formal training for about 10 years and had a gut... and was about 2 stone above his old "fighting" weight at 12 stone.

I knew he wouldn't look an idiot cause I've sparred with the two of them hard and I knew he punched alot harder, despite giving away natural size, age and the fact that this amateur was considered a mean puncher. Well, my old man basically embarresed him (you needed to make him move at you and footwork to get based him). The reaction from the boxer to me after (and I'll never forget it and often remind him) was "No wonder you could handle yourself Stu, why didn't you say your old man was a pro".

Worked as a Chippy/Bricky but hadn't gone to the gym and done a run for about 10 years and never fought amateur.

Scott Gammer has at least tried (he maybe still trying) to do a bit of labouring to make ends meet, but I've heard he's a bit of a "baby" on the building site.

[/quote]

Marciano though was skilled in his own way, he was excellent at cutting off the ring, and he was more importantly good at imposing his will. His constant pressure eventually got to everyone he faced and his body punching and shots to the arms got their guards down eventually. Marciano also had an inhuman ability to absorb punishment, rather like Jim Jeffries, he never showed weakness, and never got discouraged, which must have been very demoralising when you're whacking him with your best shots to no avail.

Having said that, I wonder if he would have done as well when Walcott and Charles were 3-4 years younger.

[/quote]

Yeah but it shows that you don't have to be skillful to beat good fighters. Marciano done most things wrong and he could have fought a 100 fights and would probably still fought the same way. You could get fighters making their debuts who would probably still box rings around him until he caught up with them.

Like any sport you get people who are just naturally gifted and will always be better than others who train or fight all the time. I could play and practice football all day long yet I wouldn't be good enough to play for a decent amateur side let alone turning pro or even semi-pro.

I guess it depends on your definition of skilful, you don't have to be flash to be skilful. Any come forward fighter with poor defensive skills, has to have a good chin, a good workrate, but also good foorwork. Rocky might have looked clumsy, but if he was as clumsy as they thought, then all these masterful boxers would have been able to miss, but they weren't. I remember Archie Moore saying something along the lines of 'Marciano looked like he was the easiest guy in the world to beat, but when I got in the ring with him, I just found that he kept making me do things I didn't want to do.' Guys like Marciano are hard to fight, because some of the old tricks, like feinting or trying to draw a lead and counter don't discourage them. Rocky expected to get hit a lot, and did, but was such a hard hitter that he could afford to.

One thing you would have to concede, is that in terms of punching technique, he definetly had something, because even though he usually weighed under 190, he is rightly considered one of the best punchers in heavyweight history, and that is some achievement. The shot he mullered Walcott with was an absolutely brutal punch which I am pretty confident would have decked most heavyweights put in front of him. Some many have gotten up, but I think it would have put them on their arse.

Sometimes it isn't silky skills that makes a great fighter. You can have great skills and not be a great fighter. Sometimes it requires other qualities. For instance, Ray Leonard was getting his arse handed to him by Tommy Hearns, who was outboxing him and showing him up, so Leonard threw the silky skills out the window and went looking to take Tommy's head off and won.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Sometimes it isn't silky skills that makes a great fighter. You can have great skills and not be a great fighter.

just look at zab judah.

lots of talent, but more flaws than canary wharf.

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Sometimes it isn't silky skills that makes a great fighter. You can have great skills and not be a great fighter.

just look at zab judah.

lots of talent, but more flaws than canary wharf.

I think Zab's problem is that he is nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. His defence is piss poor, which is precisely why a well schooled and drilled boxer like Tszyu was able to take him to pieces.

Don't say that on the Current Scene. You may get told "Zab was dominating the first round" / "controlling 50% of that fight", "he simply got caught", hahaha

Yes, I've encountered that well reasoned argument. I guess in the same manner as he controlled the fight against Baldomir too, or the fight against Floyd until Floyd stated whupping him over the last half of the fight.

Zab's just a front runner, but when people don't just fall over, that's when he starts having panic attacks.

Apart from Roy Jones and Tarver, there is no fighter I like to see getting beaten more than Judah.

He's an absolute fornicate ing wanke r

Did anyone see him taking the piss out of Robin Reid after the Lacy fight?

Cotto's going to tear out his spleen.

viciousmaussa wrote:Did anyone see him taking the piss out of Robin Reid after the Lacy fight?

when was that????

i'll dig the tape out and have a look.

i was just watching tszyu-judah.

brilliant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeFEWwNc1uQ&NR

"knocking me out with those american thighs"

Marciano had poor skill levels but what he did was effective. He had so much stamina, very good strength, good power and an amazing will to win. BUT he fought old men, small men and unskilled men. Ali, Lewis, Foreman, Tyson, Prime Louis would have made him look like a club fighter.

As for Judah - hes taking Cotto down (maybe )

hitman_hatton1 wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote:Did anyone see him taking the piss out of Robin Reid after the Lacy fight?

when was that????

i'll dig the tape out and have a look.

i was just watching tszyu-judah.

brilliant.

He was standing behind Reid as Jim Gray was interviewing him, mouthing something off in the background, waving Jeff Lacy signs behind him. Reid - or one of his corner - looked irritated and had a little look back as if he was thinking of swatting the chickenhead.

I was so glad to see Zab get beaten by Baldo and then humiliate himself v Mayweather. Judder is the worst person in boxing.

Tszyu was fantastic v Judah. Saw where all the shots were coming from in round 1 aftre getting caught. Rd 2 Kostya gets the range where Zab's flashy stuff can't land. Lines up the right hand...Tszyu a master of juding space, BOOM, Zab practically goes down 3 times from 1 shot.

That's what I call punch economy.

viciousmaussa wrote:That's what I call punch economy.

ha ha ha.

love to see cotto take him to the cleaners.

cotto will have to improve on saturdays showing though.