BoxRec

I could write an essay on this.

I started as a boxing fan but got into MMA back in 1993 with the first UFC, and followed Pride and K-1 as well.

The analogy in borrowing from pro-wrestling is avery apt. Actually, the De La Hoya v Mayweather 24-7 shows, which played a part in the huge buy-rate were straight out of pro wrestling.

I can see how you might see MMA as being too brutal, but the reality is it has less serious injuries than boxing, although more minor injuries like ligaments and breaks due to submissions.

MMA is going nowhere, because it's attracting the youth of America, which boxing isn't. It may not be as big over here though, time will tell.

I do prefer MMA to boxing now, and it IS boxing's own fault for bad matchmaking and greed.

hitman_hatton1 wrote:i respect your opinions bollocks.

but i've seen quite a few fights now and always thought it was cack tbh. that liddell fight was ridiculous.

if a top boxer fell apart that easily, we'd be ridiculing em for months.

The thing is though Hitman, you have to factor in the size of the gloves mma fighters wear. I've been reading all weekend about how Liddell got caught by someone using basic boxing skill (block the body shot and counter with the right hook). It's not like boxers don't get caught like that all the time though, it's just that a lot of the time it doesn't have any effect, because of the padded gloves. Let's see boxers start fighting each other with mma gloves and we'll see if we get anymore Morales/Barrera or Corrales/Castillo type fights. Boxers would take each others f**king heads off with those gloves.

Liddell didn't fall apart, he got nailed, went down and had nowhere to go. Had that been a boxing match with boxing gloves, he would have likely taken the shot and even if he had of gone down he would of had ten seconds to recover. There is no ten seconds to recover in mma though, nowhere to hide at all.

It's perfectly fine if you don't like the sport, some of the grappling in mma bores me to tears at times as well. MMA is just like boxing, you get guy's who will go after it and then you have your spoilers, who try to steal a fight with boring tactics. You can't simply write these guy's off as nothing though (not saying you have), because they put just as much effort in to win fights.

Terry D wrote:Then you get boxing fans who stick their finger in their ears and deny UFC, only the boxing fans do it with more finesse than the UFC fans because we follow a sport that has pedigree and class

This is what I don't get also, boxing fans who take the high road. Pedigree and class? Pedigree maybe, but class is not something I'd always associate with boxing. Watch mma for a bit and you'll see the majority of mma fighters are much more classy than boxers.

Boxing is a sport that has been ridiculed by corruption and back stabbing since it's formative years.

Class is something that smelly old boxing writers with inflated opinions of themselves like to talk about and over time it's rubbed off on fans as well. There isn't a more classless sport in the world than boxing. It's as cut throat a sport as you can get, outside the ring even more so than in it.

ArtOfWar wrote:
This is what I don't get also, boxing fans who take the high road. Pedigree and class? Pedigree maybe, but class is not something I'd always associate with boxing. Watch mma for a bit and you'll see the majority of mma fighters are much more classy than boxers.

Boxing is a sport that has been ridiculed by corruption and back stabbing since it's formative years.

Class is something that smelly old boxing writers with inflated opinions of themselves like to talk about and over time it's rubbed off on fans as well. There isn't a more classless sport in the world than boxing. It's as cut throat a sport as you can get, outside the ring even more so than in it.

Post of the month. (if there is such an accolade.)

You are bang on money there

Over in the States this boxing and MMA debate is raging strongly.

Whilst most on here conceed that there is room for both sports and that they are not mutually exclusive, in the USA, predictably, it is being played out as MMA v BOXING - WHICH SPORT WILL WIN?

For those interested in that sort of thing here is Lou Dibella 'debating' with comedian/UFC commentator Joe Rogan. To be fair both talk a fair amount of unbalanced 5hit, but it makes interesting viewing..

The very fact that this segment makes EPSN Sports Centre shows how incredibly quickly UFC has taken hold in popular American culture.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x22vcz ... ortscenter

My own feeling is that once you get to know the fighters personalities then you start to care about what happens. I'm really into the UFC largely due to the Ultimate Fighter reality series (which is excellent, pisses all over that super hero Contender crap) on Bravo which is currently in its 5th season. That's why at the weekend when I saw hardman Keith Jardine getting absolutely hammered in less than a minute by the frightening fists of UFC newcomer Houston Alexander, I was a bit shaken up.

Now, you can be sure Alexander will be in a tasty fight next time out, against another high profile name. That's the way it tends to work. The crunch matches just happen, one after another. Rashad Evans v Tito Ortiz is coming up, what a nice clash that is.

The way Chuck Lidell got wiped out at the weekend was either good or bad for the UFC depending on your point of view. Either way it was a massive, scary match up. As it turns out Lidell didn't look anything like strong enough against Jackson, I even thought during the staredown that Lidell was going to have to find a place to hide that wasn't there. Personally I think so what that that the Iceman got steamrolled, now the UFC has Rampage Jackson as 205 champion, hardly a poor advert.

Oh and anyone who says there is no skill in the UFC should watch Diego Sanchez v Nick Diaz.

I've seen a bit of Cage Rage but I don't feel the same about it simply because I know very few of the fighters by name, much less by personality. I always keep an eye out for that Brad Pickett (?) though, he is as rough as anyone I've seen.

It isn't my cup of tea at all - Much prefer boxing.

I don't see me ever following MMA like I do boxing.

Your romanticised view of the beauty of boxing and its inherent artistry is fine and dandy Tel, and I hate to break it to you, but YES there are such comparative moments of skill, nuances of brilliance and almost ballet-like precision performed by MMA combatants. You just wont find them by watching Ken Shamrock v Dan Severn.

The fact is that yours and most of the people’s on here exposure is limited to watching your dad’s UFC 6 video, which does not give you the depth of knowledge and insight to appreciate it.

Take a look at Nick Diaz’s seemingly effortless gogoplata that put Takanori Gomi to sleep, or Chonan’s famed flying heel hook that defeated the fearsome Anderson Silva.
New UFC Champ Rampage’s finest highlight reel came when he escaped a triangle choke by slamming the excellent Ricardo Arona into oblivion.

None of these were performed in the famed UFC octagon.

Many will sneer at the descriptions I have listed above but they are valid and worthy examples of sporting brilliance – take it from someone who knows.

Surprised that these moments of virtuosity were not carried out by anyone named Chuck? That’s because the sport is so much deeper then the majority of boxing fans appreciate.

I am in a fortunate position that I have followed boxing religiously for 20 years, but I also have a very sound appreciation for MMA.

If I had my choice I would watch an evenly contested boxing match every time out – its my sport of choice and in my eyes there is none better. However, I am not so naïve or belligerent as to consign every other combat sport to the bin, describing it as ‘two steroid fuelled muscle marys rolling around in their y fronts like a pair of drunks fighting over a kebab’ as so many on here are willing, or wish, to.

Very witty Ebeneezer....

UFC has one promoter, but how restrictive is that going to be for the underrated guys who don't have the right image? You could say it's a hermetic sport that builds predictable (and dumb) character types - ina lot of cases.

Also, UFC is a sport where it's ok to quit ("ouch, my arm"), where guys throw horrible punches (in the most) and where fights can get stopped if someone's even half wobbled by a clean punch/kick: anyone see Maurice Smith v Conan Silveira 1?

In all, it just looks rough and grubby. Really hulking overmuscled guys and an absolute lack of graceful technicque (unless you look at, say, a Marco Ruas/Royce Gracie for grappling or a St Pierre for standup).

Gross generalisations I am afraid VM/MG/FF/AB/..Next Week??

Some might say of boxing “its just a load of black guys swinging for the fences – little skill, too much holding and the judges just award the decision to the guy who they like best (anyone seen Toney-Tiberi?)”

Would it be true? No. Would it be a reflection of the sport in its entirety? Again no.

I can concede that MMA is not for everyone but is it so hard for the more narrow minded amongst us to concede that MMA is a skilled and very real sport? It seems it is.

Anyway I have had enough of discussing these brutal, thugish over blown steroid heads: lets get back to the only real combat sport that requires a modicum of skill and will stand the test of time – professional boxing!

Autobarn wrote:UFC has one promoter, but how restrictive is that going to be for the underrated guys who don't have the right image? You could say it's a hermetic sport that builds predictable (and dumb) character types - ina lot of cases.

Firtsly UFC is not a sport - its a promotional entity. Lets get that right.

Secondly, despite no enforced mandatories, the UFC puts on the most competitive and enthralling match ups available TIME AND TIME AGAIN - with no notion of trying to protect a ticket seller or crowd favourite - hell, its that very fact that has attracted so many fans in the first place!!

Liddell, Cro Cop, St Peirre, Matt Hughes, Takanori Gomi are all huge stars who were upset recently by big underdogs? The reason? Tough, uncompromising match making where the only winner was the fans.

IF nothing else, PLEASE boxing promoters learn from this.

Well said Terry.

Look at the lineup for UFC 73 in July

Anderson Silva vs Nate Marquardt

Tito Ortiz vs Rashad Evans

Sean Sherk vs Hermes Franca

Heath Herring vs Antionio Rodrigo Nogueria.


Cracking stuff.

is it 72 thats in belfast then? or 73?

TerribleTerry wrote:Gross generalisations I am afraid VM/MG/FF/AB/..Next Week??

Some might say of boxing “its just a load of black guys swinging for the fences – little skill, too much holding and the judges just award the decision to the guy who they like best (anyone seen Toney-Tiberi?)”

Would it be true? No. Would it be a reflection of the sport in its entirety? Again no.

I can concede that MMA is not for everyone but is it so hard for the more narrow minded amongst us to concede that MMA is a skilled and very real sport? It seems it is.

Anyway I have had enough of discussing these brutal, thugish over blown steroid heads: lets get back to the only real combat sport that requires a modicum of skill and will stand the test of time – professional boxing!

i don't watched every fight though do i, and i'm giving off a general feeling that i got not an expert analysis.

in the case of BOXING you couldn't make a general statement as it's so fragmented. When I have tuned in, I've seen a lot of ungainly meatheads in UFC. I've seen welterweights weighing 175-pounds (or whatever) whch looks really weird. Fighters acting like quivering nervous tic roid rage nobs (Lidell) or else good ol' American boys (Couture). it seems badly scripted or else polluted with cartoon ppl.

in addition, i didn't think much of matt hughes vs an aged royce gracie as "competitive fighting."

Maybe ppl like UFC for seeing white guys knocking ppl the eff out, but if that's the case just watch Lucian Bute, Kelly Pavlik and many more!

Liddell, Cro Cop, St Peirre, Matt Hughes, Takanori Gomi are all huge stars who were upset recently by big underdogs? The reason? Tough, uncompromising match making where the only winner was the fans.

IF nothing else, PLEASE boxing promoters learn from this.

yes, that's what boxing needs more of, but if you look at sky fri fight night circa 2006 and showtime with their great fights policy, we can see that this is happening in boxing.

something i picked up on in todays paper is there's an article saying researcher's have raised fresh concerns over boxing after a study revealed that being ko'd more than doubles the risk of getting Parkinson's disease. some doc is even quoted as saying "My advice would be people should not take up boxing."

obviously with people now arguing the growing popularity of ufc/mma/k1/whatever it seems a bit unfair that it's only boxing that gets mentioned in articles such as this. fair enough, the guy possibly means to include these type of sports as well but the article and headline are targeting boxing alone. is it about time ufc etc shared some of the responsibility for these articles?

Actually, the use of less heavily padded gloves tends to localise the damage to the area which is hit, rather than spreading the impact over the cranium.

MMA fights also don't last anywhere near as long, and there are far far fewer head shots. One clean hard shot to the jaw is usually enough to end the contest. Partly due to the gloves, and partly because MMa fighters aren't very good at slipping shots.

Wales wrote:is it 72 thats in belfast then? or 73?

73: Stacked is in the USA.

The Belfast card is (understandibly) a far more lighweight offering, unfortunately.

Terry D wrote:

TerribleTerry wrote:Your romanticised view of the beauty of boxing and its inherent artistry is fine and dandy Tel, and I hate to break it to you, but YES there are such comparative moments of skill, nuances of brilliance and almost ballet-like precision performed by MMA combatants. You just wont find them by watching Ken Shamrock v Dan Severn.

The fact is that yours and most of the people’s on here exposure is limited to watching your dad’s UFC 6 video, which does not give you the depth of knowledge and insight to appreciate it.

Take a look at Nick Diaz’s seemingly effortless gogoplata that put Takanori Gomi to sleep, or Chonan’s famed flying heel hook that defeated the fearsome Anderson Silva.
New UFC Champ Rampage’s finest highlight reel came when he escaped a triangle choke by slamming the excellent Ricardo Arona into oblivion.

None of these were performed in the famed UFC octagon.

Many will sneer at the descriptions I have listed above but they are valid and worthy examples of sporting brilliance – take it from someone who knows.

Surprised that these moments of virtuosity were not carried out by anyone named Chuck? That’s because the sport is so much deeper then the majority of boxing fans appreciate.

I am in a fortunate position that I have followed boxing religiously for 20 years, but I also have a very sound appreciation for MMA.

If I had my choice I would watch an evenly contested boxing match every time out – its my sport of choice and in my eyes there is none better. However, I am not so naïve or belligerent as to consign every other combat sport to the bin, describing it as ‘two steroid fuelled muscle marys rolling around in their y fronts like a pair of drunks fighting over a kebab’ as so many on here are willing, or wish, to.

The whole MMA/boxing divide rests on the fact that MMA fans cannot accept that it is a bastardised sport and when it is pointed out to them they get shirty and pull some guff like 'oh it is Greco-Roman wrestling' or 'it is the pankration'. It is neither, it is a hybrid sport set-up for the diminishing attention span.

Or it's the purest sport on earth, depends on your viewpoint.

to TerribleTerry and ArtofWar! Some of the best posts i've read in all of the many, many 'Boxing V MMA' arguments on this site.

Terry D wrote:

Tony Lumb wrote:

Terry D wrote:


The whole MMA/boxing divide rests on the fact that MMA fans cannot accept that it is a bastardised sport and when it is pointed out to them they get shirty and pull some guff like 'oh it is Greco-Roman wrestling' or 'it is the pankration'. It is neither, it is a hybrid sport set-up for the diminishing attention span.

Or it's the purest sport on earth, depends on your viewpoint.

I get your gist if what you are trying to say is that it truly decides which MA is #1 but I do disagree. I believe that the whole point of a MA is that it is a state of mind and it has a history and a pedigree. Put a judo guy under mixed rules and he could adapt his judo into something closer to kickboxing but will he still be a pure Judo practitioner? Is Lily Allen's music reggae?

Both boxing and wrestling featured in the early games and were popular then the Pankration came along to satisfy a certain desire for blood and action.

My point isn't that MMA shows which MA is number one, because the whole point of MIXED martial arts is that no 1 MA is king, a combination of all of them are.

My point is that i'm of the opinion that the purest form of competition is fighting.

Is it the purest form, though? Or is it just a cocktail / lottery of styles.

Re UFC's heritage / tradition: it's not one to be proud of. The Gracies kicked things off in America by having one of their finest BJJ practitioners Royce, take on men not versed in such nuanced/practical combat. So he took on raw wrestler types (Kimo, Shamrock), the odd heavy/street fighter, mediocre cruiserweight boxers...to prove Gracie BJJ was superior, they matched Royce against compromised opposition from rival disciplines and then got rich teaching in Los Angeles, from what I heard.

Of course UFC would develop, with strikers learning grappling and grapplers learning standup...so something productive did come of it.

Oh, btw, the best don't always fight the best. How come the great Marco Ruas-Rickson Gracie debate never got settled?

Autobarn wrote:Is it the purest form, though? Or is it just a cocktail / lottery of styles.

Re UFC's heritage / tradition: it's not one to be proud of. The Gracies kicked things off in America by having one of their finest BJJ practitioners Royce, take on men not versed in such nuanced/practical combat. So he took on raw wrestler types (Kimo, Shamrock), the odd heavy/street fighter, mediocre cruiserweight boxers...to prove Gracie BJJ was superior, they matched Royce against compromised opposition from rival disciplines and then got rich teaching in Los Angeles, from what I heard.

Of course UFC would develop, with strikers learning grappling and grapplers learning standup...so something productive did come of it.

Oh, btw, the best don't always fight the best. How come the great Marco Ruas-Rickson Gracie debate never got settled?

You're right about the first UFC, it was a Gracie promotional vehicle. Of course that was under different ownership.

Why didn't Ruas fight Rickson? Plenty of reasons, first of all this was before the sport of MMA, as both guys are in their late forties now, so it would have been an unsanctioned fight, so it's not a UFC issue. Secondly, Rickson Gracie is a polarising figure. He's the Jack Johnson of MMA in some ways. Some say he's he greatest ever, others say he was a man of his time at best. Plus he only has a handful of confirmed fights, against generallyless than stellar opposition in Vale Tudo fights and never risked his reputation despite being called out numerous times in the last 15 years. In fact, the Gracie clan, which numbers well into double figures, were often criticised for hand picking opponents to promote their schools with a few exceptions, most notable Renzo, and Royce too, who was legitimately good but also tried to get rules and opponents which benefitted his style.

It is the purest form in the sense that all the top guys, whatever their background, are cross trained and train in standup, grappling and ground training. And i said FIGHTING was the purest sport, i didn't specify boxing or MMA, both of which are purer sports than most.

Tony Lumb wrote:

Autobarn wrote:Is it the purest form, though? Or is it just a cocktail / lottery of styles.

Re UFC's heritage / tradition: it's not one to be proud of. The Gracies kicked things off in America by having one of their finest BJJ practitioners Royce, take on men not versed in such nuanced/practical combat. So he took on raw wrestler types (Kimo, Shamrock), the odd heavy/street fighter, mediocre cruiserweight boxers...to prove Gracie BJJ was superior, they matched Royce against compromised opposition from rival disciplines and then got rich teaching in Los Angeles, from what I heard.

Of course UFC would develop, with strikers learning grappling and grapplers learning standup...so something productive did come of it.

Oh, btw, the best don't always fight the best. How come the great Marco Ruas-Rickson Gracie debate never got settled?

You're right about the first UFC, it was a Gracie promotional vehicle. Of course that was under different ownership.

Why didn't Ruas fight Rickson? Plenty of reasons, first of all this was before the sport of MMA, as both guys are in their late forties now, so it would have been an unsanctioned fight, so it's not a UFC issue. Secondly, Rickson Gracie is a polarising figure. He's the Jack Johnson of MMA in some ways. Some say he's he greatest ever, others say he was a man of his time at best. Plus he only has a handful of confirmed fights, against generallyless than stellar opposition in Vale Tudo fights and never risked his reputation despite being called out numerous times in the last 15 years. In fact, the Gracie clan, which numbers well into double figures, were often criticised for hand picking opponents to promote their schools with a few exceptions, most notable Renzo, and Royce too, who was legitimately good but also tried to get rules and opponents which benefitted his style.

It is the purest form in the sense that all the top guys, whatever their background, are cross trained and train in standup, grappling and ground training. And i said FIGHTING was the purest sport, i didn't specify boxing or MMA, both of which are purer sports than most.

one thing about MMA. If you didn't fight in UFC, it's like you have no record. you can have had 100s of fights, but fighter records are like 10-7 or whatever. i always thought that they could at least acknowledge records outside of the UFC.

Not true mate - use the fighter finder at sherdog.com - its the neraest thing to boxrec's records at the moment for MMA.

Pro fights are recorded and go on a fighters record.

A typical example from the wkend would be Terry Martin His record is 18-2 and was shown as such on the UFC broadcast. ONly 3 of thjose fights have been within the UFC.

Obviously there is a grey area between am and pro fights on small shows as the pay level is so low etc but MMA is not a sport that hangs a great deal of credence to glossy records - its about fights rather then preserving that '0'.

Another area I wish boxing would learn from.

Terry,

I don’t know where you get this idea that MMA fighters try to somehow claim modern MMA to be the rebirth of pankration or some variant of Greco Roman wrestling??? Where is your evidence for this? Its not something I have heard I must admit.

In my experience people are more then happy to have their sport known as a modern hybrid: cross training in different styles is no longer optional, its mandatory in order to ensure success. Whilst different people have different backgrounds, the main contributory styles can be boiled down to Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling and Brazilian Jui Jitsu, augmented sometimes by judo, sambo and other proprietary striking styles. This is no secret, taboo or source of shame, just simple documented fact.

As for the accusation that MMA fans are some hyper sensitive bunch of reactionaries, I cannot really comment as I am a hardcore BOXING fan and have been all my life. The only difference is that I am neither arrogant nor short sighted enough to insist that boxing is the only combat sport with a future, with any in ring skill or with dedicated and professional participants.

If you prefer to watch individual martial arts in their purer form more power to you brother! But for me the BJJ Mundials, the Abu Dhabi Submssion tournament and the like are too technical and slow paced for me to fully appreciate as spectator, that just my opinion though. I prefer the bastardised MMA to the likes of Marcello Garcia, Jeff Monson and Jacare doing their (admittedly excellent) thing.

Each to their own mate.