BoxRec

Yeah but in 1951 he gave LaMotta a rare stoppage loss, and after stopping Rindone he got a shot at the LHW title against Joey Maxim, losing a 15 round decision, then he scored 4 wins before losing a decision to LaMotta over 10 rounds...so in all actuality, despite the decline after losing to LaMotta in the return bout, Jake beat a top 10 contender in Murphy at LHW.

LaMotta's record at LHW goes as follows (bouts he had throughout his career):

Billy Kilgore- Lost split decison 10; LaMotta was 167
Al (Kid) McCoy- Won by KO 1st; LaMotta was 168
Johnny Pretzie- Won by KO4th; LaMotta was 169
Danny Nardico- Lost by TKO 7th; LaMotta was 173
Bob Murphy- Won by 10 round decision; LaMotta was 169
Gene Hairston- Won by 10 round decision; LaMotta was 168
Norman Heyes- Won by 10 round decision; LaMotta was 167
Gene Hairston- DRAW after 10 rounds; LaMotta was 168
Norman Heyes- Lost split decision 10; LaMotta was 169
Bob Murphy- Lost by TKO 7th; LaMotta was 175

^^^the previous bouts were after losing to Sugar Ray in the 6th fight of their climatic series, "The Saint Valentines Day Massacre"

Other Light Heavyweight Fights LaMotta Had:

Joe Taylor- Won UD 10
Chuck Hunter-Won KO 6th
Dick Wagner-Won KO 9th
Robert Villemain- Lost UD 10
Joey DeJohn-Won KO 8th
O'Niel Bell-Won KO 4th
Robert Villemain- Won SD 10
Tommy Yarosz- Won UD 10
Vern Lester-Won SD 10
Johnny Colan- Won KO 10th
Burl Charity- Won KO 5th
Ken Stribling- Won KO 5th
Billy Fox- "lost" by KO 4th
Cecil Hudson- Lost SD 10
Tommy Bell- Won UD 10
Bob Satterfield- Won KO 5th
Holman Williams- Won UD 10

Just to name 17 :P , that is if you go strictly by the rules that anything over 160 (least back then) was considered a Light Heavyweight bout...so, really, alot of the "bulk" that makes up LaMotta's fights were done at the then Light Heavyweight weight class of anything over 160 to 175; though today they would be considered Super Middleweight.

theone wrote:

Yes you did sir...There you go again calling people infants....Keep it up you hear, keep it up.

First of I didn't call you an infant...I asked if you were one. You sure act like one with all the whining you do. Secondly, I was responding to something Decagon wrote, and then immediately making a general statement on the subject. I didn't actually disagree with anything you wrote on this post.
Now stop crying.

Just keep it up.

I mean, you're really grasping at straws, here. You're trying to argue technicalities, when the reality of the situation is that LaMotta was NOT accomplished as a professional light heavyweight (he won a light heavyweight championship as an amateur). He repeatedly said that he simply wasn't big enough

decagon, first you said LaMotta never had that many fights at Light-Heavyweight and couldn't ever be successful at the weight...then I show you that alot of LaMotta's bouts were fought at Light Heavweight; in the posts before I listed some 20+ bouts that were fought at Light Heavyweight, and that isn't even accurate, considering there was many other bouts I didnt check through, so LaMotta could have had more fights at Light Heavyweight; more or less the bulk of his career was shaped out of these fights.

Secondly, I NEVER SAID (for the billionth time) that LaMotta could take on top contenders, champions at Heavyweight...I said that any fighter, no matter how small his division, if matched perfectly could beat a Heavyweight...to say LaMotta couldnt beat a Heavyweight is ridiculous, considering guys far more smaller than LaMotta (Walker for instance) managed to get themselves into Heavyweight title shots...and your analysis is based on the word of LaMotta.

I'm sorry, but I dont take every single fighters word as the golden truth. If that be the case Archie Moore was "cheated" out of knocking Rocky Marciano out, Jack Johnson threw the fight against Willard, Jim Jefferies as well as George Foreman were 'doped' before their fights with Johnson and Ali....do you get the picture?

I am sure if LaMotta faced guys on the level of, let's say, Butterbean or Reggie Strickland (whose fought from welterweight to heavweight) or some glass jawed overhyped journeyman like John Poore....I dont think its too far out of the RELM OF POSSIBILITY that the Bronx Bull would beat them.

What your logic is, that LaMotta couldnt beat ANY Heavyweight period. And all based on his word. But mind you this, LaMotta has never been quite the truthful and most perfect source of information either. All fighters, when it comes down to it, will fight whoever is available for money, no matter the weight.

...i just clicked this one on...so, to get back to the topic of mismatches....aaron pryor and his first 20 or so "fights"...

um

Decagon wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:You're going to tell me the guy who lost to an 8-1-0 fighter in 1947, would beat the Jake LaMotta who beat Janiro and Tommy Bell also in 1947?

Mind you, when LaMotta "lost" to Marshall, it was 3 years before, and it wouldnt be until 1949 that Jake would get the title...I dont see how the guy who beat Robinson and many others, would lose to a guy who was on the decline.

Two things:

• Marshall's prime ended in 1944 or 1945.
• Henry Flakes became a top HEAVYWEIGHT, weighing 190 to 200 pounds. He twice defeated Pat Comiskey (ranked #4 by Ring magazine at heavyweight) seven months after beating Lloyd Marshall, and twice defeated Lee Oma (ranked in the top five off and on between 1944 and 1949 by Ring magazine) twice nine months after beating Marshall.
• At the bottom of Flakes's boxrec page, it says, "this data may be incomplete and/or inaccurate." It's highly possible that his true record wasn't 8-1.

Look. You can't come to Boxers of the Past and think that you can fit in simply by giving a cursory glance at Lloyd Marshall's Boxrec page. Do you really think that Jake LaMotta, Tony Janiro and Tommy Bell would be able to beat a top 190-to-200-pound heavyweight?!?!?!?

Flakes record complete I believe.

Look Dec, all I was trying to say was the competition Marshall would have had to have faced; you say his career was essentially done in 1945, but it wouldnt be until years later that LaMotta would pick up the belt, as would Cerdan and others...

Then you said LaMotta could never compete at Light Heavyweight because he was too small, then I show you more than 20 bouts (and that was just me skimming over a page of his record) that were held at the then Light Heavyweight division, more or less assuring that alot of LaMotta's fights were done above 160---which proved you wrong.

Then you said he couldn't compete with Heavyweights. I take this as meaning ANY Heavweight. The guy who took on the 3rd hardest hitting Light Heavyweight in Bob Murphy, and who knocked out the man who would become #3 for Marciano's title Bob Satterfield...you argue that just because these were Light Heavyweight bouts, it means LaMotta couldn't beat a Heavyweight---but mind you the weight classes were vastly different then, a HW then was ANYTHING above 175, that could mean a guy who weighs as much as an ounce or so (just to be technical) over 175 would be a HW, it's not so far out of the relm of possibility that LaMotta could have fought as a HW because the weight classes were much broader.

Besides, with your logic, how could we ever assume Jones could have beaten Ruiz? Or Walker out fight future champ Sharkey but only get a draw? Or how Spinks beat Holmes? I mean hell, the bulk of these mens careers were at either welterweight, middleweight or light heavyweight, but yet they beat top HW's....your argument is that a small guy can't beat a big guy, because the smaller man's opinion was that he couldnt...that's just a tad bit ridiculous.

If I recall LaMotta after the last Robinson fight was around 180, then lost the weight and competed at around 165-175 for the last 10 or so bouts of his career, when he was essentially shot and he was still able to beat the leading #1 contender for the LHW title in Bob Murphy, splitting 1-1-0 with him.

And....as far as your argument about Flakes, if I recall, all the records here on BoxRec come with a disclaimer stating that the records could be incomplete, so? I can name a bunch of fighters off here whose records are incomplete (Jem Roche for example), but then again they keep finding bouts Jack Dempsey and others had eras ago...so is it safe to assume we know all about these men just because a fight or two is missing from the puzzle? Or should we go by your argument? I imagine it is half and half.

I proved you wrong on the Light Heavyweight thing against LaMotta, and that's all I guess I was trying to prove.

And I proved a good 40% of his bouts or more was at Light Heavyweight...whether you like it or not, he did fight at Light Heavweight alot of the time.

Is it just me or does Henry Falkes sound like Decagon's new Art Oliver?

Neways...you basing the 175 on his fights after Robinson. Check throughout his career and the weights he was at...he beat a helluva lot of good fighters at LHW in his prime, and in my mind, no doubt, could have been a contender at the weight; if beating top ranked Murphy when he was passed his prime isn't an indication enough, iono what is.

As far as Flakes is concerned, let's just say that he was 8-1-0 for the sake of argument...you think a guy like that would have beaten the man who had not yet won the Middleweight title, when LaMotta was in his prime? Heavyweight or not, I don't see a novice competing with an ATG in Jake LaMotta, the Marshall situation was different because Marshall was essentially done and his best was at Middleweight ages before.

But let's say the record is incomplete, and Flakes was, let's say, 15-1. Does it really make much of a difference, considering the best victory he had was against Marshall who was a shell of his former self and who was at his best as a middleweight who now was taking on HW's and would eventually get knocked out in a single round to Kid Matthews?

To me, it doesnt. Flakes had one somewhat significant win, and it was against a man who wasn't a genuine HW, who was years passed his best, and whose best fighting weight was at middleweight...throw in Jake's toughness, as well as most of his bouts being at 175, and being in his prime...I see Jake taking a decision.

A fight that shouldn't have been made. Cus D'amato passes up Liston,Machen,and Folley. Rademacher never had a pro fight,but he had Patterson down!

kick asner wrote:Some fights were not billed as mismatches but turned out that way such as Norton and Bobick, Tyson versis Spinks, or Joe Louis Max Schmelling II. On paper they looked Okay but didn't quite turn out that way. Joe Bugner Richard Dunn turned out to be a mismatch. I was kind of surprised about that but Dunn was prone to being stopped.

it's all about styles and circumstances though.SO many variables to THE SWEET Science.Plenty of unexpected twists and turns as well i might add.
Coetzee/spinks was supposed to be competitive but look what happened.Morrison/Bent was supposed to be a tune up for tommy but look what happened.Booker t ward/anthony hembrick.another prime example.Dokes/weaver was supposed to be an epic showdown pick em and it was over in 1:03!!
Shawn O'gradey/Andy Ganigan.I remember that one!!Whatta JOKE!!
Talk about Lack of Focus!!Or rather,Sheer and utter LOSS of focus!!
How about Quarry/Shavers.That should've been a long drawn out battle of wills but it was curtains before the 1st round ended.
Some other noteworthy mismatches that were expected to be much longer fights are....
-leonard/gonzalaz
-Bowe/Gonzalaz
-Holmes/M.Frazier
-Marciano/Walcott II
-Louis/Conn II
-Anterfermo/Minter II
-Hagler/Lee
-Sibson/Collins
-Foreman/Frazier I (no one was surprised after the 2nd one)
-Liston/Patterson I & II(both were quite a surprise during that time period)
-Curry/Rossi(i personally was expecting that one to be a WAR!!)

P.S.......
-Norton/Bobick was one of those mishap flukes.Norton freakishly landed his ko punch right on Bobick's adams apple.Ahhhh!!Poor Bobick!!
Seriously though....Who can really say what would've happened in that one had norton not connected with the fluke carear ending killer throat punch to poor duane.
I'd say that it would've been a barn burner and win lose or draw,duane would've beat those other guys that beat the "SHADOW OF HIS FORMER SELF" Bobick.....

and a few more......

-tua/ruiz
-bowe/seldon
-morrison/tillis
-butterbean/gunn
-McLarnin/Y.Corbett
-Sanchez/Gomez
-Tyson/Golota
-Holyfield/Douglass
8)

i thought that this thread was supposed to emphasize mismatches that were supposed to be good matchups or relatively speaking at least.
anyway...here's a few more....

-shavers/norton
-bert cooper/ritchie melito
-hilmer kenty/ernesto espana I & II
-Galindez/Rossman II
-Mustafa Hamsho/Bobby Chyez(sp?)
8)