BoxRec

dempseyfire wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:The punch that Rahman landed on Lewis was awesome. It was right on the button, about as perfect as you can land. There are only a handful of heavyweight champions in history who may have remained on their feet after that punch.

Rahman didn't land a punch like this against Cole,Ruiz, and Maskaev. If he had, he would have knocked them out as well. You don't always land the haymaker in every fight. (Of course the great punchers do it a high % of the time)

Max Baer was ragrded as a great puncher, however his ko % isn't anything special. He was unable to stop a lot of guys who weren't that good. The main reason? Because in some of his fights he didn't land his best shot on the button.

Rahman did deck Sanders twice. Sanders had a pretty good chin. Vitali Klitschko teed off on Sanders for 8 rounds and couldn't do that. Rahman had many faults as a fighter and was very inconsistent. However, his best shot was pretty good.

If you are going to say that its a big deal for Buddy Baer to ko people like Galento, Simon and Mann and it's a big deal for Galento to stop Nova and Ettore and a string of tomato cans, then yes it's a big deal for McCall to ko Akinwande and Damiani and for Rahman to stop Maskaev.

This isn't to say that the Rahman and McCall fights should be held against Lewis. They should be. However, that doesn't mean that Lewis wasn't a great fighter or had a weak chin. He had too many other fights against hard punchers and was never knocked down and rarely hurt.

I don't understand your comment about Larry Holmes. Did someone say that Lewis should be ranked ahead of Holmes? If they did, then yes I agreee that Lewis shouldn't be ranked as high as Holmes.

Sorry, so Rahman got his best punch off ONCE vs Lewis and never landed that punch vs any of his other top level opponents in his entire career??

Baer might have gone the distance vs a few C grade fighters, but he knocked out/floored more than just ONE top level HW.

Hasim even landed a right hand with a little running start on Holyfield like he did Lennox and Evander just stood there with a little smirk on his face. Rahman also landed several BIG right hand bombs on Oleg in their two fights and Maskaev, who got starched by Johnson, T-Rex, and Whitaker, didn't even go down.

Sanders a pretty good chin? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6_BPrWdN4

Vitali also took 8 rounds of continual hammering on Danny Williams before the ref finally stopped the fight. Vitali despite his KO percentage (vs mostly journeyman) was not close to being a one punch knockout artist. Evenso Rahman scored two flash KDs on Sanders and only got the TKO when he was throwing a flurry at Corrie and Sanders was so tired he couldn't even fire back.

Rahman is a typical B grade level puncher but to say that punch KO's most Heavyweights in history is pure BS. The Holmes analogy wasn't for people who rank Lewis ahead of Holmes but to put into perspective those two KO losses on Lennox's record. No other all time great HWs ever got knocked out by that level of fighter (and don't bring up Fireman Flynn . . that fight has fishy circumstances written all over it and in hundreds of fights Dempsey never lost another fight by KO)

Am I saying this to prove Lewis wasn't great or that he had a glass chin? No. But he is up there with that upper echelon of special elite HWs? No.

I'm not saying that Rahman was one of the hardest punchers ever. He obviously wasn't able to to do this throughout his career (including the rematch against Lewis).
However, the punch he nailed Lewis with was awesome. It's not BS to say that it would have knocked almost any other heavyweight champion down. Call it a lucky punch, say that Rahman caught lightining in bottle, whatever. But it happened. Watch the punch.

btw-The youtube video of Sanders is pretty decieving. Look at Sanders' overall record. He had a good chin. You can show clips of Baer or Galento or even Louis to make them look bad as well.

Klitschko knocked Danny Williams down several times before the fight was stopped. He never knocked Sanders down once. Sanders certainly had a better chin than Danny Williams.

If Rahman's punch wasn't that great, than how do you explain it? Lewis fought way too many hard punchers and was only knocked down by McCall and seldom hurt. You can't really believe that Lewis' fights with Tua,Tyson,Briggs,Ruddock,Tucker, Bruno etc. that he never got hit with a good shot? Come on. Of course he did from time to time. However, he never got hurt badly in those fights. The only logical explanation is that the punch that Rahman hit him with was a great punch and the footage backs this up.

Things like this happen once in a while. Renaldo Snipes wasn't a particularly hard puncher, but he almost knocked out Holmes who had a great chin. Benitez wasn't considered a hard puncher at all, but watch his fight with Maurice Hope. Louis was knocked down by Braddock who couldn't break an egg.

The McCall fight shouldn't have been stopped. Lewis wasn't hurt any worse than Holmes was against Snipes. We have all seen fights where a guy was hurt worse than Lewis but managed to survive. Maybe McCall would have finished him off, maybe not. However Lewis certainly deserved a chance.

I'm not saying that Lewis didn't have faults or that the Rahman fight and to a lesser extent the McCall fight aren't marks against his record. How good was Lewis? I guess it depends on what you you mean by "Upper echelon of elite HW's". He certainly was one of the top heavyweights of all time, probably around #10-#12. If you don't have him in your Top 15, I would really like to see who you have higher.

^^^ the rahman point is a good one i remember watching this fight i was expecting lewis to win and when rahman landed that punch we all sat back and went wow the punch seemed to have lots and lots of power behind it and IMO it was a great knockout punch

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:The punch that Rahman landed on Lewis was awesome. It was right on the button, about as perfect as you can land. There are only a handful of heavyweight champions in history who may have remained on their feet after that punch.

Rahman didn't land a punch like this against Cole,Ruiz, and Maskaev. If he had, he would have knocked them out as well. You don't always land the haymaker in every fight. (Of course the great punchers do it a high % of the time)

Max Baer was ragrded as a great puncher, however his ko % isn't anything special. He was unable to stop a lot of guys who weren't that good. The main reason? Because in some of his fights he didn't land his best shot on the button.

Rahman did deck Sanders twice. Sanders had a pretty good chin. Vitali Klitschko teed off on Sanders for 8 rounds and couldn't do that. Rahman had many faults as a fighter and was very inconsistent. However, his best shot was pretty good.

If you are going to say that its a big deal for Buddy Baer to ko people like Galento, Simon and Mann and it's a big deal for Galento to stop Nova and Ettore and a string of tomato cans, then yes it's a big deal for McCall to ko Akinwande and Damiani and for Rahman to stop Maskaev.

This isn't to say that the Rahman and McCall fights should be held against Lewis. They should be. However, that doesn't mean that Lewis wasn't a great fighter or had a weak chin. He had too many other fights against hard punchers and was never knocked down and rarely hurt.

I don't understand your comment about Larry Holmes. Did someone say that Lewis should be ranked ahead of Holmes? If they did, then yes I agreee that Lewis shouldn't be ranked as high as Holmes.

Sorry, so Rahman got his best punch off ONCE vs Lewis and never landed that punch vs any of his other top level opponents in his entire career??

Baer might have gone the distance vs a few C grade fighters, but he knocked out/floored more than just ONE top level HW.

Hasim even landed a right hand with a little running start on Holyfield like he did Lennox and Evander just stood there with a little smirk on his face. Rahman also landed several BIG right hand bombs on Oleg in their two fights and Maskaev, who got starched by Johnson, T-Rex, and Whitaker, didn't even go down.

Sanders a pretty good chin? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6_BPrWdN4

Vitali also took 8 rounds of continual hammering on Danny Williams before the ref finally stopped the fight. Vitali despite his KO percentage (vs mostly journeyman) was not close to being a one punch knockout artist. Evenso Rahman scored two flash KDs on Sanders and only got the TKO when he was throwing a flurry at Corrie and Sanders was so tired he couldn't even fire back.

Rahman is a typical B grade level puncher but to say that punch KO's most Heavyweights in history is pure BS. The Holmes analogy wasn't for people who rank Lewis ahead of Holmes but to put into perspective those two KO losses on Lennox's record. No other all time great HWs ever got knocked out by that level of fighter (and don't bring up Fireman Flynn . . that fight has fishy circumstances written all over it and in hundreds of fights Dempsey never lost another fight by KO)

Am I saying this to prove Lewis wasn't great or that he had a glass chin? No. But he is up there with that upper echelon of special elite HWs? No.

I'm not saying that Rahman was one of the hardest punchers ever. He obviously wasn't able to to do this throughout his career (including the rematch against Lewis).
However, the punch he nailed Lewis with was awesome. It's not BS to say that it would have knocked almost any other heavyweight champion down. Call it a lucky punch, say that Rahman caught lightining in bottle, whatever. But it happened. Watch the punch.

btw-The youtube video of Sanders is pretty decieving. Look at Sanders' overall record. He had a good chin. You can show clips of Baer or Galento or even Louis to make them look bad as well.

Klitschko knocked Danny Williams down several times before the fight was stopped. He never knocked Sanders down once. Sanders certainly had a better chin than Danny Williams.

If Rahman's punch wasn't that great, than how do you explain it? Lewis fought way too many hard punchers and was only knocked down by McCall and seldom hurt. You can't really believe that Lewis' fights with Tua,Tyson,Briggs,Ruddock,Tucker, Bruno etc. that he never got hit with a good shot? Come on. Of course he did from time to time. However, he never got hurt badly in those fights. The only logical explanation is that the punch that Rahman hit him with was a great punch and the footage backs this up.

Things like this happen once in a while. Renaldo Snipes wasn't a particularly hard puncher, but he almost knocked out Holmes who had a great chin. Benitez wasn't considered a hard puncher at all, but watch his fight with Maurice Hope. Louis was knocked down by Braddock who couldn't break an egg.

The McCall fight shouldn't have been stopped. Lewis wasn't hurt any worse than Holmes was against Snipes. We have all seen fights where a guy was hurt worse than Lewis but managed to survive. Maybe McCall would have finished him off, maybe not. However Lewis certainly deserved a chance.

I'm not saying that Lewis didn't have faults or that the Rahman fight and to a lesser extent the McCall fight aren't marks against his record. How good was Lewis? I guess it depends on what you you mean by "Upper echelon of elite HW's". He certainly was one of the top heavyweights of all time, probably around #10-#12. If you don't have him in your Top 15, I would really like to see who you have higher.

I do have him in my top 15 (he fluctuates between #10-#12 for me).

I think the Snipes comparison is spot-on, but here's the big difference . . Holmes got right back up vs Snipes . . .he stayed down vs Rahman. Explanation? Lewis was a master of using his reach and height at avoiding major punches. Ruddock never hit him with anything. Tua only landed maybe 5 real punches in their right and Lewis was always already backing away when he landed. Tyson landed nothing of significance. These were completely one-sided fights. Bruno and Briggs did land some good punches on Lewis, and Lewis was hurt and wobbled in both fights. His chin was ok but not top notch.

As for the McCall stoppage, it comes down to this one big factor. Yes, Holmes went down hard from Shavers and Snipes. But here's the big difference, and this is partly just bad luck for Lennox. Even though Holmes was wobbly when he first got up, when the ref went up to Holmes to ask him if he was alright, he stood straight up, but both hands up, and said yes. When the ref asked Lewis, he put both hands up and then almost fell into the referee. As a ref, that's a real tough call and you can't fault a ref for stopping a fight when a fighter stumbles after you ask him if he's alright.

Listen to the Hagler commentary on Lewis-Rahman. Hagler calls the KO before it happens.

dempseyfire-Maybe we aren't so far part on this subject. I thought that you meant that Lewis was no where near the Top 10.

I do think that Lewis had a bit better chin than you do. Tyson did hit Lewis with a couple of decent shots in the first round. Mercer, while not a huge puncher, could bang some and he hit Lewis with a lot of punches. (btw I don't think Lewis should have gotten the decision against, but I guess that's another story). I don't think that Briggs had Lewis in that much trouble. In the early rounds, Tua did land some lefthooks which didn't seem to have much effect on Lewis. (This may be partuially due to Tua having to punch up at Lewis and lose some of the steam on punches). Tua then didn't even seem to try in the last several rounds.

I do think that the Snipes fight for Holmes and the Rahman fight for Lewis were very important fights. I currently have Holmes at #6 all-time, (But I think you could argue that he could be as high as #3) but if he would have been stopped by Snipes I would drop him down a few spots, possibly outside of the top 10. However, he did survive.

If Lewis would have won the first fight with Rahman, I would have him at #7. However, he didn't and so he should be a bit further down.

Ezzard wrote:Listen to the Hagler commentary on Lewis-Rahman. Hagler calls the KO before it happens.

Foreman does as well. He starts talking about Lewis left being too low in the first round. One of his few moments of clarity.

I actually think Lewis tends to be under-rated.
He made more defenses than Holyfield, Bowe or Tyson and, even though it wasn't a top notch era, he defeated pretty much every name fighter out there.
The main knock is that he was KO'd twice. But these were in fights for which he was under-prapared and avenged them. With fewer lapses he could have retired undefeated, something many of his contemporaries wouldn't have managed in the same era.

Sorry, so Rahman got his best punch off ONCE vs Lewis and never landed that punch vs any of his other top level opponents in his entire career??

Baer might have gone the distance vs a few C grade fighters, but he knocked out/floored more than just ONE top level HW.

Hasim even landed a right hand with a little running start on Holyfield like he did Lennox and Evander just stood there with a little smirk on his face. Rahman also landed several BIG right hand bombs on Oleg in their two fights and Maskaev, who got starched by Johnson, T-Rex, and Whitaker, didn't even go down.

Sanders a pretty good chin? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6_BPrWdN4

Vitali also took 8 rounds of continual hammering on Danny Williams before the ref finally stopped the fight. Vitali despite his KO percentage (vs mostly journeyman) was not close to being a one punch knockout artist. Evenso Rahman scored two flash KDs on Sanders and only got the TKO when he was throwing a flurry at Corrie and Sanders was so tired he couldn't even fire back.

Rahman is a typical B grade level puncher but to say that punch KO's most Heavyweights in history is pure BS. The Holmes analogy wasn't for people who rank Lewis ahead of Holmes but to put into perspective those two KO losses on Lennox's record. No other all time great HWs ever got knocked out by that level of fighter (and don't bring up Fireman Flynn . . that fight has fishy circumstances written all over it and in hundreds of fights Dempsey never lost another fight by KO)

Am I saying this to prove Lewis wasn't great or that he had a glass chin? No. But he is up there with that upper echelon of special elite HWs? No.

I think Lewis's two KO losses prove the following points:
1. Lewis's overconfidence sometimes resulted in ill-preparation
2. Lewis's overconfidence resulted in him making stupid mistakes
3. Lewis had a decent, but far from great chin

Both the punches he was KOd by were huge punches (Rahman's in particular). I am confident that both punches would knock down almost all of the 20 greatest heavyweights. Knock out though? Not many.

However, for me, this only marks Lewis down by a small amount. If he lost close decisions to McCall and Rahman, in my opinion that would be worse to his legacy, being outboxed by such clear B level heavyweights. If Lewis had the exact same career, but retired undefeated, having outpointed McCall and TKOd Rahman (very hypothetical I know) I would probably rate him at No6 of all-time, only 1 place higher than I currently have him.

jezzamundo wrote:

Sorry, so Rahman got his best punch off ONCE vs Lewis and never landed that punch vs any of his other top level opponents in his entire career??

Baer might have gone the distance vs a few C grade fighters, but he knocked out/floored more than just ONE top level HW.

Hasim even landed a right hand with a little running start on Holyfield like he did Lennox and Evander just stood there with a little smirk on his face. Rahman also landed several BIG right hand bombs on Oleg in their two fights and Maskaev, who got starched by Johnson, T-Rex, and Whitaker, didn't even go down.

Sanders a pretty good chin? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6_BPrWdN4

Vitali also took 8 rounds of continual hammering on Danny Williams before the ref finally stopped the fight. Vitali despite his KO percentage (vs mostly journeyman) was not close to being a one punch knockout artist. Evenso Rahman scored two flash KDs on Sanders and only got the TKO when he was throwing a flurry at Corrie and Sanders was so tired he couldn't even fire back.

Rahman is a typical B grade level puncher but to say that punch KO's most Heavyweights in history is pure BS. The Holmes analogy wasn't for people who rank Lewis ahead of Holmes but to put into perspective those two KO losses on Lennox's record. No other all time great HWs ever got knocked out by that level of fighter (and don't bring up Fireman Flynn . . that fight has fishy circumstances written all over it and in hundreds of fights Dempsey never lost another fight by KO)

Am I saying this to prove Lewis wasn't great or that he had a glass chin? No. But he is up there with that upper echelon of special elite HWs? No.

If Lewis had the exact same career, but retired undefeated, having outpointed McCall and TKOd Rahman (very hypothetical I know) I would probably rate him at No6 of all-time, only 1 place higher than I currently have him.

That makes absolutely no sense

The two KO losses only bring him down one notch? And if erased only up one notch?? huh?

Not trying to be smart just honestly trying to see where you're coming from.

That makes absolutely no sense

The two KO losses only bring him down one notch? And if erased only up one notch?? huh?

Not trying to be smart just honestly trying to see where you're coming from.

I know, it must seem a bit hard to understand, but that's just the way I see things. I tend to rate fighters primarily on their career accomplishments, and Lewis's accomplishments would be hardly any better if he had beaten McCall and Rahman first time around. If anything, the eventual wins have a bit more shine because of the way he lost to them first time around.

Perhaps I would rate Lewis no5 if he had retired undefeated with only his actual wins on his record (although this is an unrealistic hypothetical, as if Lewis had beaten McCall he would likely have gone on to face tougher competition earlier on in his career, may not have gone to Manny Steward, and would have been KOd sooner or later). Ultimately the only way Lewis could ever be in with the elite heavyweights is if his career had unfolded as such:

KOd Bowe in 1993 to win the world title.
KOd Tyson in 1996, unifying the titles.
KOd Holyfield in 1996 in a title defense.
Made 2-3 solid defenses per year and retired undefeated after beating Vitali in 2003.

Even then, his competition would not be good enough to rate him higher than 3. Plus I think Bowe would have KOd Lewis in 1993.

i rate lewis very highly, if he is on song he could have beaten just about any HW ever. very powerful and very fundementaly sound.

So, you mostly ignore a fighter's bad performances? You see Hasim Rahman as a guy who simply knocked out Lewis, Sanders and Meehan instead of the fighter who lost to most of the best fighters, but managed to win a fight once in a while?

No, not really. I take all of a fighters fights into account, but I put more weight on their prime years, and their 'normal' performances. Hasim Rahman is a guy who has strong wins over Sanders and Meehan, in some of his better performances. He knocked out Lennox Lewis with a huge punch, but in the rematch was proven to be clearly inferior to Lewis. He was also highly inconsistent with his weight and has had some very poor performances against B to C level heavyweights.

Lewis's KO losses mark him down for sure, but the fact that he avenged them impressively (and proved himself far better than his conquerors) reduces the impact in my opinion. In my opinion, worse to Lewis's legacy are his sub-par performances in big fights with Mercer and a past his best Holyfield (particularly in the 2nd fight).

jezzamundo wrote:

So, you mostly ignore a fighter's bad performances? You see Hasim Rahman as a guy who simply knocked out Lewis, Sanders and Meehan instead of the fighter who lost to most of the best fighters, but managed to win a fight once in a while?

No, not really. I take all of a fighters fights into account, but I put more weight on their prime years, and their 'normal' performances. Hasim Rahman is a guy who has strong wins over Sanders and Meehan, in some of his better performances. He knocked out Lennox Lewis with a huge punch, but in the rematch was proven to be clearly inferior to Lewis. He was also highly inconsistent with his weight and has had some very poor performances against B to C level heavyweights.

Lewis's KO losses mark him down for sure, but the fact that he avenged them impressively (and proved himself far better than his conquerors) reduces the impact in my opinion. In my opinion, worse to Lewis's legacy are his sub-par performances in big fights with Mercer and a past his best Holyfield (particularly in the 2nd fight).

But part of being one of the "very best" is consisitency, not just having very good "normal performances". Again, while champ Louis, Ali, Holmes, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier etc. were not starched by one punch from frigne contenders. They had some off-nights but never fell to that level. That is a big distinction.

Also, I wouldn't classify the McCall mental breakdown as "impressive revenge" for Lewis. If anything, Lennox's complete anxiety and unwillingness to unload on an opponent who is walking around the ring with both hands down further points to how Lennox is a step below that top rung. Despite his granite chin, does anyone see Foreman, Holmes, Dempsey, Frazier not opening up on a crying McCall instead of probing with a few jabs b/c you're scared it might be an act?

Overrated? By who? Lewis is no worse than a top 10-15 heavyweight all-time. That kind of status is pretty hard to overrate.

dempseyfire wrote:

jezzamundo wrote:

So, you mostly ignore a fighter's bad performances? You see Hasim Rahman as a guy who simply knocked out Lewis, Sanders and Meehan instead of the fighter who lost to most of the best fighters, but managed to win a fight once in a while?

No, not really. I take all of a fighters fights into account, but I put more weight on their prime years, and their 'normal' performances. Hasim Rahman is a guy who has strong wins over Sanders and Meehan, in some of his better performances. He knocked out Lennox Lewis with a huge punch, but in the rematch was proven to be clearly inferior to Lewis. He was also highly inconsistent with his weight and has had some very poor performances against B to C level heavyweights.

Lewis's KO losses mark him down for sure, but the fact that he avenged them impressively (and proved himself far better than his conquerors) reduces the impact in my opinion. In my opinion, worse to Lewis's legacy are his sub-par performances in big fights with Mercer and a past his best Holyfield (particularly in the 2nd fight).

But part of being one of the "very best" is consisitency, not just having very good "normal performances". Again, while champ Louis, Ali, Holmes, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier etc. were not starched by one punch from frigne contenders. They had some off-nights but never fell to that level. That is a big distinction.

Also, I wouldn't classify the McCall mental breakdown as "impressive revenge" for Lewis. If anything, Lennox's complete anxiety and unwillingness to unload on an opponent who is walking around the ring with both hands down further points to how Lennox is a step below that top rung. Despite his granite chin, does anyone see Foreman, Holmes, Dempsey, Frazier not opening up on a crying McCall instead of probing with a few jabs b/c you're scared it might be an act?

yeah i do not see larry holmes unloading on a helpless man.
holmes tried to get the ref to stop his fights with both cobb and marvis frazier.he said i am here to win not murder.

MEISINGER wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

jezzamundo wrote: No, not really. I take all of a fighters fights into account, but I put more weight on their prime years, and their 'normal' performances. Hasim Rahman is a guy who has strong wins over Sanders and Meehan, in some of his better performances. He knocked out Lennox Lewis with a huge punch, but in the rematch was proven to be clearly inferior to Lewis. He was also highly inconsistent with his weight and has had some very poor performances against B to C level heavyweights.

Lewis's KO losses mark him down for sure, but the fact that he avenged them impressively (and proved himself far better than his conquerors) reduces the impact in my opinion. In my opinion, worse to Lewis's legacy are his sub-par performances in big fights with Mercer and a past his best Holyfield (particularly in the 2nd fight).

But part of being one of the "very best" is consisitency, not just having very good "normal performances". Again, while champ Louis, Ali, Holmes, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier etc. were not starched by one punch from frigne contenders. They had some off-nights but never fell to that level. That is a big distinction.

Also, I wouldn't classify the McCall mental breakdown as "impressive revenge" for Lewis. If anything, Lennox's complete anxiety and unwillingness to unload on an opponent who is walking around the ring with both hands down further points to how Lennox is a step below that top rung. Despite his granite chin, does anyone see Foreman, Holmes, Dempsey, Frazier not opening up on a crying McCall instead of probing with a few jabs b/c you're scared it might be an act?

yeah i do not see larry holmes unloading on a helpless man.
holmes tried to get the ref to stop his fights with both cobb and marvis frazier.he said i am here to win not murder.

Correct, but he did it while unloading vicious right hands

Lennox Lewis is tremendously overated, his fights with Bruno, Mercer, Tony Tucker, Vitali, old blown up Holyfield, Briggs, Akiwande and of course McCall/Rahman prove this.

Journeyman Mercer not only outbrawled him, but OUTJABBED the jabber! Mercer won the fight comfortably but the decision turned against him; Bruno - another fighter with a good jab also beat Lewis to the punch each time until Lewis threw a lucky wild hook which somehow caught Bruno which led to his defeat. This can be compared to how Julian Jackson won against Graham in their fight - with a lucky punch.

(Though others had said that Bruno should of won by DQ when Lewis actually held Bruno's head down and uppercuted, similar to when he fought Grant)

Lewis also was outjabbed by past it Holyfield in the rematch as well as being on the verge of be knocked spark out by Shannon Briggs. Lewis on my list does not make the top 20 let alone the top 10 and put him against the fighters of the 80's - Holmes, Tyson, Coetzee, Dokes, Cooney, Witherspoon etc and he looses everytime.

Ha that was funny Razor, I know you personally can't stand Lewis but saying he doesn't make the top 2o is laughable.
Popular consensus has him hovering around the 10 mark which is fair enough.
Theres only a handful of HWs who have won more title fights than Lewis (Ali, Louis....)

If any HW is overrated its Holyfield, (counting his draw against Lewis as a loss) his HW title fight record stands at 10-6.
Holy never held a HW belt very long before losing it

But part of being one of the "very best" is consisitency, not just having very good "normal performances". Again, while champ Louis, Ali, Holmes, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier etc. were not starched by one punch from frigne contenders. They had some off-nights but never fell to that level. That is a big distinction.

Also, I wouldn't classify the McCall mental breakdown as "impressive revenge" for Lewis. If anything, Lennox's complete anxiety and unwillingness to unload on an opponent who is walking around the ring with both hands down further points to how Lennox is a step below that top rung. Despite his granite chin, does anyone see Foreman, Holmes, Dempsey, Frazier not opening up on a crying McCall instead of probing with a few jabs b/c you're scared it might be an act?

I'll agree with you on the McCall rematch to an extent. It was not a particularly impressive revenge, but he boxed well (albeit VERY cautiously). Lewis knew that McCall had a granite chin, and he would probably be unable to knock him out. Honestly, have you ever seen McCall hurt by a punch? Lewis was scared of walking into another big punch and being KOd.

Again, I feel that the fact that Lewis's off-nights resulted in KO losses are more due to the fact that his chin was not as good as that of the heavyweights you mentioned. For me what really prevents Lewis from being ranked any lower (or higher) is the fact that he has never really been outboxed in his entire career, but on the same token, he never faced a prime, great heavyweight with the ability to outbox him. He was beaten to the jab by Mercer throughout their fight, but brawled well and managed to make it close in one of his worst performances (I scored it to Lewis by 1, but feel that a draw would have been a fairer result). Holyfield outhustled him for periods in their second fight, and Vitali won 4 of 6 rounds against a old, overweight Lewis, but again, I feel that Lewis was a fair bit off his best in both fights. I would only be confident of a prime Ali and Holmes beating Lennox Lewis on top form, and fighting a smart fight.

In my opinion on his day Lewis was capable of beating anyone, past or present.

He beat every fighter he fought. Yes he was stopped by McCall and Rahman however they were two big fighters and big punchers. And they were both fighting for the title, so they were physically prepared and up for the fight. There were rumours before the Rahman fight that Lewis wasn't training and was more interested in his appearence in Oceans 11.

Not many fighters could have taken flush shots from them and not been dropped or stopped. Lewis showed his heart by given them both rematches and stopping them both in the return. What more could he do than that?

People say Lewis doesn't deserve high praise because of those losses, yet Joe Louis was ko'ed before winning the title and was dropped and hurt more times than Lewis was, yet is ranked by many as the greatest heavyweight ever.

I don't think you can call Lewis chinny for those two losses, look at who else he fought, Tyson, Ruddock, Tua, Morrison, Mercer, Briggs, Weaver, Bruno, Mason and Klitschko to name a few. If he was chinny he would have hit the deck far more times than he did.

My only criticism of Lewis was he could be too cautious. When he wasn't he was awesome, the Golota fight springs to mind. Golota coming off two d/q losses to Bowe then gets flattened in 1 round by Lewis. Remember Bowe refused to fight Lewis.

Lewis' record shows he fought every contender he could have, and he beat them all. Yes you can pick holes in his career but you can with anyones. The fact that he didn't duck anyone and defended the title as many times as he did shows he was a class act.

I'm just reading through the other posts and many people seem to think Lewis fought poor opposition.

Most fighters had the fair share of poor opponents.

Muhammed Ali had title defences against Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, Jean Pierre Coopman, Richard Dunn, Alfredo Evangelista. Hardly dangerous opponents.

Joe Louis also fought many poor opponents in title fights.

Marciano had 3 rematches in his 6 title defences and fought Don Cockell, is that impressive?

Holmes had several poor fighters challenge him for the title, and was lucky not to loose a few of those to.

The only fighter Lewis didn't fight was Riddick Bowe, and that was because Bowe refused to fight him. Lewis's title reign is just as impressive as anyone else's IMO.

Decagon wrote:Yeah, but Lewis didn't have too many very-good-to-great opponents. Tyson and Holyfield were pretty damn old. I'd take Jerry Quarry over them.

You can't blame Lewis for the level of opposition. The general level of the heavyweight division hasn't been good for a long time. Holyfield was 36 but still a very good fighter. Remember Holyfield had stopped Tyson twice and Moorer in his fights prior to facing Lewis, he was still a very good fighter and IMO Lewis won the first fight, no way was that a draw.

Many of Lewis's opponents were undefeated and/or top 10 ranked. You look at his record, every name you can think of, apart from Bowe, is on his record.

His title reign is far more impressive than most, 15 title defences, only Holmes and Louis had more. Would you say Holmes title reign was more impressive, I don't think so. Holmes fought many average fighters. Some had very few fights on their record and some of his wins were highly controversial. Holmes was even flattened by Snipes a fighter with only 11 kos in 22 wins, although Holmes did get up to stop him.

Decagon wrote:But at the same time, you can't give him the same credit that fighters with better competition get, especially since he didn't go undefeated during his prime. Some people might complain that Jack Johnson's opponents weren't so great, but he went undefeated for 10 years, while fighting the best in the world. That's why I rank Johnson over Lewis.

His competition is as good as most other heavyweight champs. How many young, fit, world class fighters did Marciano fight? Six title defences in 3 years, 3 of them rematches against fighters he had already beaten. And before his title fights how many decent fighters did he face?

Same for Holmes, many fighters with little experiance, Ocasio (13 fights), Berbick (20 fights), Spinks (14 fights), Snipes (22 fights), Witherspoon (15 fights), Smith (15 fights), Bey (14 fights), Frazier (10 fights) etc..etc..

When Lewis was fit and focused he was capable of beating anyone. After just 18 fights Lewis had fought and beat 2 former cruiserweight champs (Ocasio and McCrory), a former heavyweight champ (Weaver), a former heavyweight title challenger (Biggs) and the undefeated Mason (35 wins 32 kos). I would say thats not bad opposition compared to Marcianos or Tysons first 18 opponents, or any other heavyweights come to that.

Not to mention that after those 18 fights he had won the British and European titles, and 2 fights later added the Commonwealth belt.

Decagon wrote:You're taking all of Holmes's best opponents off the list by leaving out Norton, Weaver, Cooney, Shavers...

I'm not saying Holmes didn't fight any good opponents, the point I was making was he fought many poor ones too, something Lewis gets accused of. Holmes also had a couple of controversial wins.

Shavers was basically a big puncher, not much else to his game if you ask me. He was slow, didn't have a particularly good chin, had dubious stamina but hit as hard as any fighter could. I wouldn't say he was so much better than a Lewis opponent. Also Cooney, another big puncher but didn't really ever beat anyone of note, again he could be compared to a Lewis opponent.

The same for Weaver, a big hitter but had several losses on his record, was inconsistant and had a dubious chin. Again he could be compared to a Lewis opponent.

Holyfield was a better fighter than any fighter Holmes fought if you ask me, especially when you consider that Holmes fought many of his opponents in the early days of their careers, not when they were necessarily at their best.

Decagon wrote:But Lewis didn't fight someone on the level of a Norton, a Shavers, a Witherspoon... At least not in his prime.

In 1999, Evander Holyfield was a better fighter than those three. Without question.

Hell, Ruddock wasn't all that inferior to Shavers or Witherspoon either and David Tua was better than Shavers, IMO.