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Posted: 16 Oct 2007, 12:13
by jamesmcdonnell
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:jamesmcdonnell wrote:DavidPayne wrote:Mmmm. Interesting theory James.
Personally, I would counter that Tyson would have been better served being 'clay' for Cus, than a free man under the guidance of those that followed Cus' death.
His professional decline is an obvious reflective of the damage Tyson freedom and lack of system and boundaries had on him. His mental and social stability were closely aligned to his success as a fighter.
When he was professionally reborn after jail in the mid-90's, he was successful but he wasn't the eager, balanced student of his youth and the success was superficial, everyone could see he was an eroded talent and a less content individual.
Holyfield, his professional, spiritual and social antithesis (though he would later be exposed as fraud in his private life) was a timely and ironic full stop on the charade. And so the spiral began again.
Tyson under Cus' guidance wouldn't bite an opponents ear off. Just an example of the effect he would have had. Would Tyson have been more productive and happy with the stricter regime? I think so.
That isn't to say Cus didn't have an agenda, but a content, stable Tyson suited all parties.
My point was not that he would have been better of being guided by someone else, but rather he may have been better off not being discovered at all and never taking up boxing.
The decline of Tyson's career can also be charted in direct parallel for him falling out of love with the sport. When he returned from jail, he no longer had any love for the sport at all I don't think. It was just a job he did to make money to give him some sort of purpose.
Cus' influence was beneficial for a time, but it was inevitable that Tyson would rail against such a suffocating all encompassing system, just as his charge Patterson did beforehand. Cus' system of fighting and indeed of living, did not allow for any free expression, and once the money started rolling in and Tyson started to become a star, he began rebelling against Cus' ideals. It was a matter of time before the split happened, it's just that Cus died first.
Part of the reason Tyson was attracted to Don King, was that he found a role model in Don that he could understand, after being surrounded by fusty old white codgers, Don was something that Mike unfortunately aspired to, a kind of ghetto daddy figure.
Tyson's story is such an interesting one to get into, I find him such a fascinating figure, and the details surrounded his meteoric rise and fall are such rich material for speculation and investigation.
If you haven't read it yet David, then I really recommend you read 'Mike Tyson, money myth and betrayal.' by Moteif Illingworth. Not sure if it is in print currently, but see if you can get a copy. It goes into great detail on the relationship between Mike, Cus, Jim and Bill Cayton, there's some fascinating material in there. It ends with the rape trial and some of the details surrounding it.
Some interesting points about Tyson on here but to say he would never have been better if he was never discovered at all sounds pretty insane. Hes had a life that we meer mortals came only dream about. Despite declaring bankruptcy hes set for life and came make far more money than 99% of men with incredible ease despite been retired from the sport. Even in bankruptcy hes led the life of riley. I'm not saying his life has been perfect but thats largely due to a focus on short term thrills whether easy women, drugs, or spending money liek water
Imagine his life if he didn't take up boxing, he'd be in and out of prison for all of his life. He wouldn't have had a father figure
I also think its unfair to Cus to call him 'selfish' for wanting a great HW champ. Maybe he had some selfish reasons but he also was a father figure to Mike that Mike never had growing up and gave the boy a trade and education and some sort of moral system
Oh yeah, that right, Mike's had such a peachy life hasn't he? Just because he has made loads of money doesn't make for a great life.
Mike's already had two stints in jail during his career, and looks set to have a third. So much for Cus D'amato's fantastic moral compass.
Cus pandered to Mike's every whim, allowing him to do pretty much as he pleased. Hence when Mike started fidddling with Teddy Atlas' 14 year old niece, and Cus ignored it, Teddy stormed down to the gym and stuck a gun to Mike's head and told him he'd blow his brains out if he did it again.
I think the Myth of the angelic Cus has been parroted for far too long now, the truth is a lot more unpalatable and a lot more complex.
Posted: 16 Oct 2007, 16:37
by WildWaylon
Posted: 16 Oct 2007, 16:46
by WildWaylon
chesh wrote:NorthEastBoxingFan wrote:missed that , sounds like a missed a great show
what guests were on, Hatton have any banter with any of them?
Generally it's either Stephen Fry, Michael Palin or Rory Bremner........then Stephen Fry, Michael Palin... Rory Bremner etc....
The other guests were Michael Winner and Paul Anka (who wrote "My Way" and many others). Even though Ricky stayed there after his interview, there was no banter between the guests. As James and others have said, Parky's more shot than Holyfield. At least Parky's going to retire though...
Ah, Paul Anka, "Diana" and "Lonely boy" - You would be way too young I expect to remember those hits, I was pretty young myself - By the way your Elvis choice IS a classic.
Posted: 16 Oct 2007, 16:48
by n1ebf
i think that list, although I thought it was the start of a weird joke, is actually intended as a TRIBUTE of sorts to Parky, going by some of the name's.
Although Baldrick was missing off Blackadder. (oh come on he fcking must have been on it at least twice!)
as for the Tyson debate which will doubtless be keeping this thread alive when Ricky's talkshow appearance will be just a distant memory.....whatever Cus' influence , good , bad or inbetween...you can't take away the formative early years of a man's life as though they don't count......they count more than most I would say.....(and before anyone sticks the boot in , no, I say that with no psychological expertise whatsoever..it's just my opinion)
Posted: 16 Oct 2007, 17:29
by harrygreb
of course my list is a tribute. a who's who of late 20th century culture appeared on the parky show and i was honoured to see it. but it also highlights the paucity of great talent and artistry we are currently living in. oh, i forgot those twinkle toed genius's fred astaire and gene kelly.
Posted: 16 Oct 2007, 17:43
by WildWaylon
harrygreb wrote:of course my list is a tribute. a who's who of late 20th century culture appeared on the parky show and i was honoured to see it. but it also highlights the paucity of great talent and artistry we are currently living in. oh, i forgot those twinkle toed genius's fred astaire and gene kelly.
You must have missed my post Harry referring to that huge star Emu.
Posted: 16 Oct 2007, 18:02
by n1ebf
harrygreb wrote:of course my list is a tribute. a who's who of late 20th century culture appeared on the parky show and i was honoured to see it. but it also highlights the paucity of great talent and artistry we are currently living in. oh, i forgot those twinkle toed genius's fred astaire and gene kelly.
you missed the Cheeky Girls off your list.
no need for thanks
Posted: 16 Oct 2007, 19:43
by chesh
WildWaylon wrote:Ah, Paul Anka, "Diana" and "Lonely boy" - You would be way too young I expect to remember those hits, I was pretty young myself - By the way your Elvis choice IS a classic.
Well, "Diana" was written around the time I was born - nearly 50 years ago (I'm a bit younger than you, Waylon) - so I don't remember it too well from first time around! I know Elvis did a great version of "My Way", but I always think of Sinatra when I think of that song.
Posted: 17 Oct 2007, 06:54
by harrygreb
emu was not a particularly good guest as i never heard a word he said. all his comments were whispered into the ear of some scruffy berk with his hand up his arse. maybe thats why he got so angry with parkinson.
Posted: 17 Oct 2007, 06:58
by Chambers2
harrygreb wrote:emu was not a particularly good guest as i never heard a word he said. all his comments were whispered into the ear of some scruffy berk with his hand up his arse. maybe thats why he got so angry with parkinson.
"If that fcuking thing comes near me, I'll break his neck and your arm" - Billy Connolly (I think)
Posted: 17 Oct 2007, 07:11
by J
harrygreb wrote:emu was not a particularly good guest as i never heard a word he said. all his comments were whispered into the ear of some scruffy berk with his hand up his arse. maybe thats why he got so angry with parkinson.
what washing powders did Rod Hull used to use?
Ariel and Bounce :P
Posted: 17 Oct 2007, 07:18
by Lenny
What year did Hull go down as a result of Man U beating Juventus?
(now I feel dirty, quoting Frank Skinner, ughh)
Posted: 17 Oct 2007, 14:43
by dookus
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Max Molyneux wrote:It's too early for a Hatton biography anyway, the book had some good stuff In It but he used alot of his humility to fill the pages.
The best story was when he went to girls house then went out to find some rubbers and then couldn't find her house afterwards.
Sure he didn't nick that story from the sitcom 'Game On'
I saw that episode when I was a kid - then earlier this year, the same thing happened to me....strangely enough, I actually managed to get with her later on and still am
Posted: 17 Oct 2007, 18:02
by nickd
Glad to hear you bath with your wellies on! ;)
Posted: 17 Oct 2007, 18:32
by chesh
nickd wrote:Glad to hear you bath with your wellies on! ;)
Or pick your nose with your glove on!
Posted: 18 Oct 2007, 10:28
by Khaosai-Galaxy
Dreadfully working class isn't he, Hatton?
Thats why i have dropped out of following boxing, too many poor people.
Posted: 18 Oct 2007, 12:45
by Andy Mac
Captain Hook wrote:Ricky Hatton, then Michael Winner and Paul Anka?
effing rubbish, at least Hatton is current. Parkinson lost it years ago....
And what the hell is Winner on?
"I've written a book about how to lose weight, when I go to posh restaurants I only eat half of the plate of food, and then do the same with the pudding etc etc"
Fat pudendum....so he wants us to eat less of the caviar we order, effing windbag....
Totally agree, Winner is a pompous pudendum. Thinks all actors are superior, headed by Brando and Bronson, and everyone else on the planet are peasants. F***in lowlife prick. Of course we all eat in West End restaurants nightly dont we?
His attitude reminds me of a true story about a pal of mine, who had a breakdown due to his building company going skint, and ending up bankrupt.
The upshot was he ends up being sent to a trick cyclist, who comes up with this classic piece of advice. " I think you need a hobby Mr Evans, have you considered yachting?
Emris then asked him to stand up and walk round the desk to where he was, whilst he went the opposite way. Asked the quack to sit in the chair he'd been in, whilst he took the quacks chair, and said. " You sure that you're not nuts? Yachting you div, I cant afford the cap, never mind a boat. I'm here cos I've gone skint and in debt up to my neck."