BoxRec

Terry D wrote:Norris was arguably a tougher fight for Ray in my opinion. Against Camacho he was completely gone for and had a bit of a clown in front of him. Against Norris he was against a killer in his prime and Ray's smarts got him by.

Jones may never have had the greatest chin. In retrospect I remember one of his fights when he got caught early in a round and as soon as he got back to his corner he complained about getting hit. His reflexes are the problem, his chin may always have been his Achilles heel for all we know but we found that out definitively when the reflexes went.

Prime for prime Jones had the better resume but, again to return to the preference factor of the thread, Toney was the better technical boxer and that has held him up beyond his prime whereas it didn't with Jones who got his ass kicked by Tarver and Johnson and KO'd by shots Toney, even the train wreck I watched against Batchelder, would not get hit with. No one ever kicked Toney's ass, as the man says.

As for the smaller thing, I think I put smaller/poorer/faded, yep I did, you threw up Paz who was smaller, a bigger number were poor and a good few faded. Right now Tito fits into all three so at least, in one sense, Jones is returning to the glory of his prime.

I don't need to search google. Jones had an average chin. If it suddenly goes how can McCall, a heavyweight, still be taking the knocks? It is relative from fighter to fighter but if you refuse to accept that Jones chin problems arrived when he lost his sparkle then we'll have to assume that he had to ditch the chin 'roids and that left him exposed.

If I walked into a gym as a flat-footed and tubby fighter and there was James Toney and Roy Jones there who would I choose to train me on the fundamentals of boxing? Toney. Who do I choose to watch these days when I dig-out fights? Toney. Who is my preference choice for the better boxer? Toney. As per the title of the thread.

Terry D wrote:

stujones wrote:

Terry D wrote: He's a natural puncher at the weight though and Toney stood right in front of him and slapped the piss out of him in fight one. Put Jones in there, at that point and we'd have the first case of WRSF (Runny Shit stops Fight).

Toney is the epitome of good boxing.

So Toney being a better fighter when shot is your arguement point?

Shall we condem Ali for getting beaten up by Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick... Leonard for getting destroyed by an old Macho Camacho.

Why don't we compare there respective performances over the same opponent at the weight... John Ruiz.

Sorry its a bit of a rediculous stance I think your taking - As I said, Leonard got taken out vs Light Punching, overweight, Camacho.... Is he a no chinned fighter who once the reflexes were gone - couldn't do anything else? Was should he just not be in the ring.

Roy Jones is in that category - and Toney been taking some full blooded shots against fighters in which he shouldn't do now.

Also, Roy has shown some adaption in his more recent fighters.... Ajamu and Henshaw are not world beaters, but a decent fringe opperators.... Roy has looked shot, but found a way to beat them.

Stu, are you missing the point deliberately? Jones had no defence bar movement off and on the ropes using his reflexes and legs.

Ali and Leonard are two awful examples on your part also because they too relied on movement but, unlike Jones, they also had chins so they could actually go against the likes of Norris and Berbick, Holmes also, without being KO'd by a shot that bounced off the gloves before impact. The point is the same as it was/is with Toney, once their movement and reflexes went completely they had to rely on the fundamentals, for Leonard read ring craft and Ali read heart.

Ali and Leonard are about as poor a pair of counter-examples as you could dig-up.

A question was asked about the best fighter in recent years, it is a preference question, I go for Toney on the basis that his skills have not been as badly impacted by the loss of his prime gifts.

Jones has hardly been taking on guys who hit as heavy as Peter has he? Would he stand and fight Peter the way Toney did? No, because he cannot. Jones was barely able to kid his way towards a loss to disinterested Tarver in the farcical dead-rubber match they had. There has been no subtle defensive shift in Jones, he went down a few levels and is now taking on a mummified former welterweight great who lost every single round of his last bout.

Jones might come forward in this fight but it is because it represents a return to his prime type fights, beating the shit out of a smaller/poorer/faded guy who poses fewer threats.

Syntax Error wrote:or do you mean any fighter that has boxed in the last 15 years & it doesn't matter when they retired etc, as long as they have done something worthwhile since 1992?

then I would say Pernell Whittaker

Tantum wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:or do you mean any fighter that has boxed in the last 15 years & it doesn't matter when they retired etc, as long as they have done something worthwhile since 1992?

then I would say Pernell Whittaker

Larry Holmes anyone?

Sammy Mendelson wrote:I believed the topic to be concerning achievements within the last 15 years i.e. what they may or may not have done before could not be factored in. That, in my opinion, would make any effort to get Larry Holmes in the list redundant.

Terry D wrote:

stujones wrote:Steve Robinson was FLOORED for the first time in his career by Naz... So when was he stopped in his prime? Sorry, his chin was cast iron.

He was in the form of his life going into the Naz fight and then was stopped. I thought his legs looked gone, plus his desire, after this fight. A fight in which he was set-up and spat-out in my opinion.

We'll have to agree to differ. The only time we'll see Toney on his back is when he's 40+ stone and being air lifted from his trailer.

Terry D wrote:Robinson had an average chin. He could be put down and stopped. It wasn't awful, it wasn't great (Oliver McCall springs to mind) and it let him down more frequently as he got older.

Great chins = Oliver McCall, Hagler and the like.

Robinson's does not spring to mind when someone asks me about a great chin. Suggesting that it is middling in any list I'd make. He could be put down and stopped. McCall and Hagler, like Robinson, took on real bangers and were not bounced about.

Sure there were excuses for the Naz fight, he was stictched-up, but even with a full preparation you would pick him with hope, as I did, rather than certainty.

Robison having a great chin is true in the over-hyperbolic sensethat Gatti is a great fighter. People say it but it is not quite true when you get perspective on it.

Terry D wrote:

knockout wrote:A fact that cannot be denied is that one of the candidates mentioned by most has beaten two of the candidates mentioned as contenders and .....

That is Mr Roy Jones.....

Beat Toney and beat Hopkins.....

How many people in recent memory have two Ws against all time greats on their ledger???

Hopkins has KO wins over two fighters many will consider great one day.

There is no right and wrong in this strand, only differing levels of explication.

Terry D wrote:

stujones wrote:

Terry D wrote:Robinson had an average chin. He could be put down and stopped. It wasn't awful, it wasn't great (Oliver McCall springs to mind) and it let him down more frequently as he got older.

Great chins = Oliver McCall, Hagler and the like.

Robinson's does not spring to mind when someone asks me about a great chin. Suggesting that it is middling in any list I'd make. He could be put down and stopped. McCall and Hagler, like Robinson, took on real bangers and were not bounced about.

Sure there were excuses for the Naz fight, he was stictched-up, but even with a full preparation you would pick him with hope, as I did, rather than certainty.

Robison having a great chin is true in the over-hyperbolic sensethat Gatti is a great fighter. People say it but it is not quite true when you get perspective on it.

When was Robinson ever hurt in his prime - I'll ask again!.

Robinson "excuses" for the Naz fight are not them, but anyway it wouldn't have changed who would have won... I aint saying he was Floyd Mayweather. But I am sure Robinson would have survived the course... and as I said there were strong indications that he was past his prime then anyway. Certainly not in the "form of his life".

Aside from Hamed and in his fights with Ramirez, Harrison and Conway (when he was finished)... when was Robinson EVER hurt, ever in any trouble.

I feel Robinson was in his prime during the time he foguht Naz, unless you are a Tyson prime type of person who ends a fighters prime the moment he loses a bout.

All Naz did was show us the level Robinson was at. A good fighter with determination who was ill-equipped to fight Naz. I'm sure Damigella also paused him in their bout.

If you want to argue that Robinson had a great/steel jaw then fair enough. It is sometimes good to pursue the path of error.

The reason I don't have to make-up a mythical prime for Hagler or McCall that suits me is because those guys had iron chins. Whatever the year.

jackthehat wrote:pernell whitaker
floyd mayweather

Lenny wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:

Sammy Mendelson wrote:Best boxers of the last 15 years.

1. Floyd Mayweather
2. Roy Jones
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Oscar de la Hoya
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Marco Antonio Barerra
7. Erik Morales
8. Felix Trinidad
9. Winky Wright
10. Joe Calzaghe

This was done very quickly and may need revision.

Damn right It needs revising.


Tito above Calzaghe Is Insane.

Tito has a better resume than Calzaghe so it's not really all that insane.

Terry D wrote:

stujones wrote:

Terry D wrote: I feel Robinson was in his prime during the time he foguht Naz, unless you are a Tyson prime type of person who ends a fighters prime the moment he loses a bout.

All Naz did was show us the level Robinson was at. A good fighter with determination who was ill-equipped to fight Naz. I'm sure Damigella also paused him in their bout.

If you want to argue that Robinson had a great/steel jaw then fair enough. It is sometimes good to pursue the path of error.

The reason I don't have to make-up a mythical prime for Hagler or McCall that suits me is because those guys had iron chins. Whatever the year.

And Sugar Ray Leonard's chin is what then? Average aswell....

Robinson was past his prime before the Hamed bout - whether it was weight draining issues or what - he never had the same spark after the McKenzie fight - it can even be said that he didn't look as effective as usual in the McKenzie fight... This was not documented after the Hamed fight - but BEFORE by experts and Journo's.

Boxing Monthly could only do a small preview cause of the nature of how the fight was brought but they ended it with "we have seen the best of Steve Robinson".

I cannot remember the Damigella fight - can never remember Robinson being at sea though... if you want to mention fighters that where hurt but not stopped - then what of Ali and your two main men Toney and Hagler.

Tyson was mentally gone after the first Bruno fight... Not that convinced we ever saw him physically gone.

Leonard's wasn't steely the way McCall's and Hagler's were. Steve Robinson's neither for that matter.

Say what you like but have Hagler or Toney had the type of shellacking Robinson got? Hagler fought Hearns with no chin issues, people go mad over the fact he paused to steady himself after a bomb early. Toney got pushed over by Peter in fight II and that was down to the fact Toney often goes square-on. Ditto with Johnson and Jones. These guys mixed in a higher class than Robinson. McCall also and his chin is insane.

I'd bet my life, if I had to, on Toney being able to slip punches better than Jones if both were leggy, and also on Toney carrying the better shot.

You could probably condense every shot Jones ever took in his life and hit Marvin on the chin with the combined impact and he'd probably just get slightly miffed, then KO you.

Jones is a good boxer but hands down and teeing off you would worry about him. Some fighters you don't.

Terry D wrote:[You can. It is very easy. Toney went past his athletic prime but could block, parry and roll away from crushing shots.

Jones went past his athletic prime and was divorced from his senses after failing to defend himself against Johnson's cuffing shots.

Ring craft got Toney through 24 rounds against the hard hitting, if limited Peter. It failed to get Jones past Tarver and Johnson.

Toney is the better technician. Jones the athlete. Prime separates the two, and proves my points.

You weally don't wealise this?