BoxRec

Autobarn wrote:Another thing. If Warren managed to get Haye, would he really want to feed a drained Haye to Mac? Or would he want to mould Haye into the heavyweight champion of the world? Methinks Frank would want a cruiser champ AND a heavy champ, than just the one belt holder in the division with lesser money.

You have got it spot on!!!

Spud wrote:

Ben Carey wrote:The fight would have to take place on a Sports Network show and Warren is very likely to want options in the event of a Haye victory - a major sticking point from Haye's perspective (or it has been previously). Does anyone know when Haye's promotional deal with Frank Maloney is due to expire?

There you go - starting to think more in depth and that is where the key is.

This Haye thing annoys me a tadge - here we have it again - a boxer whose promoter has got him a key fight in the Mormeck fight - but - the key question in all of this - will Haye stick with Maloney??

If he does - I will actually argue the Maccarinelli fight will not happen.

Why?? -

Because David Haye is key to the Maloney Operation and also his contract on Sky TV - Therein lies the problem whether the Maccarinelli fight takes place or not and you have hit the point - OPTIONS - If W arren wants them there is no chance Maloney or Sky TV agree to it - No f*cking chance!!

If however Haye is at the end of his contract - then he will have all the bargaining tools - maybe he now sees W arren as a viable option?? - but I once heard an old granny say at the Post Office queue that she thought Mr W arren may not like Mr Booth too much who is Haye's trainer, manager and close friend - the old lady then went completely and utterly nuts and says Mr W arren may find it difficult to do business with Booth there.

Boxing is a funny old sport - its all too easy for the fans to demand this and that fight - but its the politics they should get their teeth into - once you start getting your head around that - then you will be a little more sensible in what fights you wish to see.

How did Maloney get him the Mormeck fight exactly?

It was a mandatory and he had to go to the other guys back yard. Hardly a master stroke.

Scrap wrote:Josh its Haye who hasnt improved, althougth the matchmaking certainly has. the weight problems Id take with a pinch of salt. everytime someone starts throwing something back at him and his response Id be alarmed at thats my take. Hes athletic but his tecnnique leaves a lot to be desired.

I don't think the same fighter who lost and gassed against Thompson would have beaten the best cruzer in the world he has clearly improved. Admitedly he had less to improve from (i.e. Lee Swaby) however he is all together a more classy boxer and you can tell that from his ametre pedagree and his assent in 5 years to a more meaningful champion than Mac is after 9 years in the game.

nickd wrote:

Spud wrote:

Ben Carey wrote:The fight would have to take place on a Sports Network show and Warren is very likely to want options in the event of a Haye victory - a major sticking point from Haye's perspective (or it has been previously). Does anyone know when Haye's promotional deal with Frank Maloney is due to expire?

There you go - starting to think more in depth and that is where the key is.

This Haye thing annoys me a tadge - here we have it again - a boxer whose promoter has got him a key fight in the Mormeck fight - but - the key question in all of this - will Haye stick with Maloney??

If he does - I will actually argue the Maccarinelli fight will not happen.

Why?? -

Because David Haye is key to the Maloney Operation and also his contract on Sky TV - Therein lies the problem whether the Maccarinelli fight takes place or not and you have hit the point - OPTIONS - If W arren wants them there is no chance Maloney or Sky TV agree to it - No f*cking chance!!

If however Haye is at the end of his contract - then he will have all the bargaining tools - maybe he now sees W arren as a viable option?? - but I once heard an old granny say at the Post Office queue that she thought Mr W arren may not like Mr Booth too much who is Haye's trainer, manager and close friend - the old lady then went completely and utterly nuts and says Mr W arren may find it difficult to do business with Booth there.

Boxing is a funny old sport - its all too easy for the fans to demand this and that fight - but its the politics they should get their teeth into - once you start getting your head around that - then you will be a little more sensible in what fights you wish to see.

How did Maloney get him the Mormeck fight exactly?

It was a mandatory and he had to go to the other guys back yard. Hardly a master stroke.

I am finding it difficult to believe warren is making this fight without playing the options game but the option may be a rematch at HW which Enzo probably wouldn't take if he lost anyway.

yiddo14 wrote:A few here are vastly over-rating Macca IMO.

I tend to agree with Haye when he says he will bowl him over in a couple of rounds.
I honestly think Macca is tailor made for Haye.

Someone hit tha nail on the head earlier though, it does nothing for Haye really(besides make him a fewq quid and shut up Fwank I guess )

Haye is ALREADY the undipsuted cruiserweight champion.
The peper title that Enzo holds means nothing in the division.

Well said.

Maccarinelli has been around long enough & should be ahead of Haye in his development.

I honestly believe that Macca is not worthy of a fight with Haye.

If he can prove himself, then go for it, but right now, no way, even if he has a reasonble chance against the suspect chinned Haye.

yiddo14 wrote:A few here are vastly over-rating Macca IMO.

I tend to agree with Haye when he says he will bowl him over in a couple of rounds.
I honestly think Macca is tailor made for Haye.

Someone hit tha nail on the head earlier though, it does nothing for Haye really(besides make him a fewq quid and shut up Fwank I guess )

Haye is ALREADY the undipsuted cruiserweight champion.
The peper title that Enzo holds means nothing in the division.

Not really a reason why you think Haye will win In that post.

Haye's quickness on his feet and his head movement have been non existant since he decked Gurov. He needs that to get under Enzo's jab.

Are some underrating again because of resume?

Max Molyneux wrote:

yiddo14 wrote:A few here are vastly over-rating Macca IMO.

I tend to agree with Haye when he says he will bowl him over in a couple of rounds.
I honestly think Macca is tailor made for Haye.

Someone hit tha nail on the head earlier though, it does nothing for Haye really(besides make him a fewq quid and shut up Fwank I guess )

Haye is ALREADY the undipsuted cruiserweight champion.
The peper title that Enzo holds means nothing in the division.

Not really a reason why you think Haye will win In that post.

Haye's quickness on his feet and his head movement have been non existant since he decked Gurov. He needs that to get under Enzo's jab.

Are some underrating again because of resume?

Isn't resume a large percentage of the rationale for rating a fighter?

Spud wrote:

Ben Carey wrote:The fight would have to take place on a Sports Network show and Warren is very likely to want options in the event of a Haye victory - a major sticking point from Haye's perspective (or it has been previously). Does anyone know when Haye's promotional deal with Frank Maloney is due to expire?

There you go - starting to think more in depth and that is where the key is.

This Haye thing annoys me a tadge - here we have it again - a boxer whose promoter has got him a key fight in the Mormeck fight - but - the key question in all of this - will Haye stick with Maloney??

If he does - I will actually argue the Maccarinelli fight will not happen.

Why?? -

Because David Haye is key to the Maloney Operation and also his contract on Sky TV - Therein lies the problem whether the Maccarinelli fight takes place or not and you have hit the point - OPTIONS - If W arren wants them there is no chance Maloney or Sky TV agree to it - No f*cking chance!!

If however Haye is at the end of his contract - then he will have all the bargaining tools - maybe he now sees W arren as a viable option?? - but I once heard an old granny say at the Post Office queue that she thought Mr W arren may not like Mr Booth too much who is Haye's trainer, manager and close friend - the old lady then went completely and utterly nuts and says Mr W arren may find it difficult to do business with Booth there.

Boxing is a funny old sport - its all too easy for the fans to demand this and that fight - but its the politics they should get their teeth into - once you start getting your head around that - then you will be a little more sensible in what fights you wish to see.

Why the hell should fans have to concern themselves with politics?

Granted, politics (to give it a name) is a very large part of what governs which fights happen, and it also why boxing is a frigging joke compared to other global sports.

Boxing remains the only sport where individual operators run the whole shebang in a P.T Barnumesque manner to suit their own ends. That goes for all promoters involved in the sport. No matter what any of them say, they are in it for coin and ego, simple as that. When they are smaller they like to bang on about how promoter x/y/z is bad for the sport, and how they are going to make big changes, but once they are on top, then they end up doing everything in their power to protect their own interests.

Fans should only have to concern themselves with fights, the rest is the sort of cobblers that pillocks like us sit around blathering on about.

The skills don't get rated as well though, some are going off resume alone.

Mac hasn't been dropped by a super middle either.

I think that either fighter in this instance if capable of decking and putting the other out.

Macca carries a chin bit high, but he also keeps his hands a bit higher and is the more compact puncher in close.

Haye has obvious defensive flaws, and Macca has quick hands, I can easily envisage Macca landing a bomb on Haye and dropping him.

Of course if Haye lands a bomb on Macca, then I can see exactly the same thing happening.

Max Molyneux wrote:The skills don't get rated as well though, some are going off resume alone.

Mac hasn't been dropped by a super middle either.

But as has been said Haye has improved immesurably since then. Also Mark Hobson and Lee Swaby have both droped Mac, furthermore you can't ignore his resumay, he beat Braithwait thats pretty much it. Haye beat Arthur Williams, Alexander Gurov, Giacobbe Fragomeni, Tomasz Bonin and that Jean Marc Mormeck bloke.

When did Calzaghe take over as Enzo's trainer?

nickd wrote:

Spud wrote:

Ben Carey wrote:The fight would have to take place on a Sports Network show and Warren is very likely to want options in the event of a Haye victory - a major sticking point from Haye's perspective (or it has been previously). Does anyone know when Haye's promotional deal with Frank Maloney is due to expire?

There you go - starting to think more in depth and that is where the key is.

This Haye thing annoys me a tadge - here we have it again - a boxer whose promoter has got him a key fight in the Mormeck fight - but - the key question in all of this - will Haye stick with Maloney??

If he does - I will actually argue the Maccarinelli fight will not happen.

Why?? -

Because David Haye is key to the Maloney Operation and also his contract on Sky TV - Therein lies the problem whether the Maccarinelli fight takes place or not and you have hit the point - OPTIONS - If W arren wants them there is no chance Maloney or Sky TV agree to it - No f*cking chance!!

If however Haye is at the end of his contract - then he will have all the bargaining tools - maybe he now sees W arren as a viable option?? - but I once heard an old granny say at the Post Office queue that she thought Mr W arren may not like Mr Booth too much who is Haye's trainer, manager and close friend - the old lady then went completely and utterly nuts and says Mr W arren may find it difficult to do business with Booth there.

Boxing is a funny old sport - its all too easy for the fans to demand this and that fight - but its the politics they should get their teeth into - once you start getting your head around that - then you will be a little more sensible in what fights you wish to see.

How did Maloney get him the Mormeck fight exactly?

It was a mandatory and he had to go to the other guys back yard. Hardly a master stroke.

If you think securing a fight is as easy as being a mandatory contender then I am afraid therein lies the depth of your boxing knowledge.

Josh, I will be giuded by your infinate wisdom of the game. If you fancy a big bet when or if it happens Im your man.

Scrap wrote:Josh, I will be giuded by your infinate wisdom of the game. If you fancy a big bet when or if it happens Im your man.

You say that as if the assertion that someone who just KOed the unified No. 1 in the devision will beat someone who's best wing is vs Braithwate is a rediculouse statement.

Spud wrote:

nickd wrote:

Spud wrote: There you go - starting to think more in depth and that is where the key is.

This Haye thing annoys me a tadge - here we have it again - a boxer whose promoter has got him a key fight in the Mormeck fight - but - the key question in all of this - will Haye stick with Maloney??

If he does - I will actually argue the Maccarinelli fight will not happen.

Why?? -

Because David Haye is key to the Maloney Operation and also his contract on Sky TV - Therein lies the problem whether the Maccarinelli fight takes place or not and you have hit the point - OPTIONS - If W arren wants them there is no chance Maloney or Sky TV agree to it - No f*cking chance!!

If however Haye is at the end of his contract - then he will have all the bargaining tools - maybe he now sees W arren as a viable option?? - but I once heard an old granny say at the Post Office queue that she thought Mr W arren may not like Mr Booth too much who is Haye's trainer, manager and close friend - the old lady then went completely and utterly nuts and says Mr W arren may find it difficult to do business with Booth there.

Boxing is a funny old sport - its all too easy for the fans to demand this and that fight - but its the politics they should get their teeth into - once you start getting your head around that - then you will be a little more sensible in what fights you wish to see.

How did Maloney get him the Mormeck fight exactly?

It was a mandatory and he had to go to the other guys back yard. Hardly a master stroke.

If you think securing a fight is as easy as being a mandatory contender then I am afraid therein lies the depth of your boxing knowledge.

For once I must agree with our tuberous friend.

Getting rated in the top 10, never mind #1, and then actually securing a mandatory, requires significant and persistent pressure and guile from the promoter, and having a decent relationship with the sanctioning body in question.

Josh, Its not as simple as that, I know of 8 British Champions when they won the Title they didnt start favourite but the judgement was right, with all of them.

Scrap wrote:Josh, Its not as simple as that, I know of 8 British Champions when they won the Title they didnt start favourite but the judgement was right, with all of them.

Yes but I believe Haye has the style to beat Enzo too, people talk about Enzo's jab like its something special but look at Haye's he could fight a fight against a European manditory throughing one right hand a round. With Enzo he'd through jabs to start then if Enzo got over excited and tried to through something bit he'd use the space and it'd be good night Enzo.

Josh he was allowed to, the division is not alive with good fighters Mormeck to me hasnt been a live body for 4 years. Funny I was in London last week talking to people I respect and this fight came up in conversation and the 6 people there all went with Enzo which surprised me with there connections, interesting.

James,

To answer your posts - sorry got to disagree with your "why should the fans concern themselves with the politics of the sport" ...

I disagree because that is where I would say at least 70% of what boxing is about lies within "politics" - the intrigue, the making of fights, the TV contracts, relationships within boxing etc etc etc

For the fan to understand why Haye/Maccaroni will or won't happen is not just about a poster coming on here calling Mr W arren a w*nker or the fighters w*nkers because they are avoiding each other blah blah blah ...

If the fan was just to take a little time in understanding or should I say trying to understand why a fight has not happened then sometimes just sometimes they wouldn't be crying from the rooftops for the fight to take place in the first place - or for the fight to take place when the pieces of the jigsaw fit.

Time and time again even as the "Bin Emptier" or "Coffee Boy" at Hennessy Sports - I would be sat in the office at the Lennox Lewis College a couple of days before the fight, sometimes even the night before!!! - trying to suggest an opponent by scouring boxrec or sometimes bloody boxing news - a number would be then found out for the manager, trainer or promoter for the fight then to be scuppered for unreasonable wage demands and that is for a flaming undercard fight!!!! - another opponent would then be found - for you lot on here to say "For f*ck sake what a sh*t opponent" - time and time again there are people who know boxing would scream "listen you **** do you know how difficult it was to find that opponent in the first place!!!".

Time and time again - I have spoken to a promoter who I have worked for and said "who have we got for so and so then" to then be told the possibilities but not to breath a word of it on these forums - the possibilities hav then fallen through and you guessed it you lot on here have slagged the opponent.

Now before anyone says it yes sometimes I have actually known promoters to use what I have written to their advantage - in otherwords they state they have tried their best when perhaps they may not have.

You then have TV contracts promoters are tied to - which is why their big named fighters simply cannot appear on another TV channel otherwise they might lose their contract due to the TV company signing up because of that particular fighter in the first place.

There is loads more - you know there is James - perhaps just perhaps sometimes we really do need to attempt to understand the politics.

Having said all that - I cannot wait to be a simple old boxing fan again.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Spud wrote:

nickd wrote: How did Maloney get him the Mormeck fight exactly?

It was a mandatory and he had to go to the other guys back yard. Hardly a master stroke.

If you think securing a fight is as easy as being a mandatory contender then I am afraid therein lies the depth of your boxing knowledge.

For once I must agree with our tuberous friend.

Getting rated in the top 10, never mind #1, and then actually securing a mandatory, requires significant and persistent pressure and guile from the promoter, and having a decent relationship with the sanctioning body in question.

But so - does this equate to boxing knowledge? Yes, but give me a guy who doesn't know/understand this but can tell an uppercut from a hook than someone who knows this, but doesn't know about the actual boxing side of it.

Autobarn wrote:Mario and Big Gar - why is it an EXCUSE when Haye has been saying he's dead at the weight all year long, and has looked healthier up at heavyweight? It's a fact that he's not strong at the weight, whereas Enzo is.

Have to agree that Maccarinelli has not got the best record for fighting live contenders...oh, sorry, I mean ANY record of fighting live contenders. If Haye wants to take the fight, thats his choice though, and I suppose he abrogates any right to make excuses if he does so.

Inceidentally though, should we not be showing a bit more concern for Haye's health? Another cruiser fight for him has disaster written all over it - a tough fight for a weight drained guy is a breeding ground for brain injury.

stujones wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Spud wrote: If you think securing a fight is as easy as being a mandatory contender then I am afraid therein lies the depth of your boxing knowledge.

For once I must agree with our tuberous friend.

Getting rated in the top 10, never mind #1, and then actually securing a mandatory, requires significant and persistent pressure and guile from the promoter, and having a decent relationship with the sanctioning body in question.

But so - does this equate to boxing knowledge? Yes, but give me a guy who doesn't know/understand this but can tell an uppercut from a hook than someone who knows this, but doesn't know about the actual boxing side of it.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Maloney knows boxing inside out. He's fought himself, and has trained fighters himself, including leading Johannsen to victory recently.

Tykemania wrote:

Autobarn wrote:Mario and Big Gar - why is it an EXCUSE when Haye has been saying he's dead at the weight all year long, and has looked healthier up at heavyweight? It's a fact that he's not strong at the weight, whereas Enzo is.

Have to agree that Maccarinelli has not got the best record for fighting live contenders...oh, sorry, I mean ANY record of fighting live contenders. If Haye wants to take the fight, thats his choice though, and I suppose he abrogates any right to make excuses if he does so.

Inceidentally though, should we not be showing a bit more concern for Haye's health? Another cruiser fight for him has disaster written all over it - a tough fight for a weight drained guy is a breeding ground for brain injury.

You're right to bring health up. He looked vibrant and healthy up at heavyweight and constantly moans how weak he is as a cruiser, where he is vulnerable. i.e. despite the durability issues, he's shipping more punches and not getting out of the way of shots on time, in fights where he's mean to have the speed advantage. If he doesn't move up after knocking out the top cruiserweight, though, you'd have to say he's courting trouble.

It is typical Sports Network though, get the opponent when he's at his most vulnerable.

Of course health is a concern Autobarn, but I think your over judging Haye's one fight at Heavyweight a tadge. Great victory no doubt, but Bonnin isn't a world beater despite his lofty status.... you think he won't ship punches against the likes of Juan Carlos Gomez?

He'll get monitored by the BBBoC regularly I am sure.

Enzos Oral stability has iproved leeps and bounds. The signs are there Hayes in the last 4 years hasnt