BoxRec

Everyone made Ali look bad in sparring. I think people who have a rudimentary knowledge of Ali are aware of that, but not his excellency of boxing history, apparently.

No comment on Conn's hand, dingleberry?

I Feel Fine wrote:You are aware, dagos, that Ali was 230 pounds, the heaviest of his career to that stage. A lot of guys would have looked good against that version of Ali.

Robinson in rematches knocked LaMotta, Turpin and Fullmer out. And those guys were better than Jones.

Its interesting listening to the selective commentary that some use when discussing these fights.

Remember I said post retirement Ali. Robinson beat LaMotta five times and gave him a thorough beating for the title. I know Jake had a lot of weight on Ray before that,but from what I've read in old newspapers a couple of the losses could have gone the other way. Turpin beat Ray in his prime by a wide margin in England. I'm sure Ray thought He was going to have an easy go with him. The rematch was tough for Robinson. Ray was ahead,but Randy was gaining ground and had opened a bad cut on his eye. Ray showing his greatness knocked him out. Ray in his prime lost to Jake,Randy,drew with Brimm,and fought a heavier Maxim who made Ray work hard in that heat. I know a lot of guys say the heat got to Ray. But Joey was sweating too. They don't give Maxim enough credit.

After retirement it was the bigger guys that Ray had trouble with. I'm guilty as much as some of the others when we try to assess Robinson and Ali after they came out of retirement. We don't do that with Joe Louis or Benny Leonard. Ray still for me was the best P4P. And Ali the best heavyweight. Joe Louis told me that on the steps of the Thunderbird Hotel.
OK granberry, let me have it.

That's a little more reasonable dagos, though I don't think Young fought post-retirement i.e. post-1970 Ali better than any other fighter, I just think he benefited from the circumstances. Can you imagine a prime Joe Frazier fighting a 230 pound, 34 year old Ali? That'd be pretty ugly. Anyway, I've seen the Robinson-Turpin fights so I don't need to be told what happened, I'm just saying that Robinson was capable of winning a rematch with Turpin, and with LaMotta (though you are right that at least one of the rematches could have gone to LaMotta) so I think one could make the case he could have won a rematch with Jones as well. As I said in another thread, Robinson was great in rematches. I think you have to give Maxim credit for the win, but he wouldn't have won without the excessive heat.

I Feel Fine wrote:Everyone made Ali look bad in sparring. I think people who have a rudimentary knowledge of Ali are aware of that, but not his excellency of boxing history, apparently.

No comment on Conn's hand, dingleberry?

Poor ifeelfine goes through the throes of agony of the members of the Religion of Ali when the Young fight is mentioned.

Jimmy Young Made an ASS out of Ali, ifeelfine.

For FIFTEEN rounds.

Swallow it.

Not as badly as Charles made Louis look.

And, again, its almost common knowledge among people who know boxing history that Ali did not go all out in sparring, and that he was finished by the time he fought Young. Only boxing novices would unaware of those two points.

By your logic, Ocasio was better than Young.

It's so utterly moot. Yes, Young beat Ali. Yes, he was robbed. But Chavez lost to De La Hoya. Whitaker to Trinidad. Robinson to Fullmer, & Leonard to McLarnin.

Victories tainted by the age & wear of the victims. No one dares argue Ali-Young to be any different.

Right.

Another thing is that granberry is asking -nay- demanding us to look past all the factors of Ali's age, weight, wear and tear and the fact that it wasn't a fight he took at all seriously, and he's saying we should simply look at the results and not the circumstances. But, in that case, if we're supposed to be so legalistic as to forget all the disadvantages Ali had going into the fight, then by that logic we could also say "Well, Ali won the decision, so that's all that matters; the result." Isn't that a fair assessment? If we have to look at the bare results and forget everything else, then Ali is the winner and the discussion ends there. If you say we should be more analytical and less legalistic, then we can say that Young was robbed, but we could also then say in this analytical discussion that Ali was badly disadvantaged and would likely have beaten Young if they were the same age. And after all, as I just pointed out, Young went on to lose twice to Ocasio... obviously something was wrong with Young there, but by dingleberry's legalistic logic we all have to acknowledge that Ocasio was the better fighter and that Young could have never beaten him, when that simply isn't the case.

I have to wonder what's the point if you know you're posting a biased, tainted view? Gran has enough smarts to know he is a victim of bias in regards to Ali, & his comments are poorer for it.

The only reason that makes it worthwhile is if you are trying to change the opinions of other, more naive people --- & to that end, Gran couldn't have chosen a worse target than Ali, given his unshakeable popularity.

Still, like the little train that thinks it can, thinks it can, Gran is plugging away, one post at a time, fighting the good fight. I have the urge to gently knuckle his head & acknowledge his pluck, but Gran isn't appreciative of that manner of gratitude.

You're alright in my book, Gran. Hopelessly enslaved by bias, but I'm not perfect, either

Yes, I would dare say that granberry displays very "religious" behavior.

But his take on Young is very interesting and perhaps accurate. But as always he avoids the difficult questions. He'll answer it in about 3 months when he figures out a good song and dance to go with it.

Here I am again just shillin'


Young vs Ali Prime vs Prime. Ali wins a much faster paced affair than the one that all three judges gave to Ali when he was far past his best. Now that's not shillin' that's just da facts.

9-6 at it's closest, 11-4 at it's widest. Ali's faster wheels & superior handspeed overcome Young's superior technical skill-set.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:9-6 at it's closest, 11-4 at it's widest. Ali's faster wheels & superior handspeed overcome Young's superior technical skill-set.

Internet "boxing" site posting in all its glory.

The clueless making up fairy tales.

Go to it, halfwits.

I Feel Fine wrote:Not as badly as Charles made Louis look.

And, again, its almost common knowledge among people who know boxing history that Ali did not go all out in sparring, and that he was finished by the time he fought Young. Only boxing novices would unaware of those two points.

By your logic, Ocasio was better than Young.

Poor ifeelfine is in AGONY.

Young made a total ASS out of Ali.

Since the halfwits who post on these internet "boxing" sites don't know the most absolute fundamentals of boxing--and never will--

they look for some other excuse for Ali's pathetic 'performance' against Young.

Young gave Ali a BOXING LESSON.

It was embarrassing to watch.

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Not as badly as Charles made Louis look.

And, again, its almost common knowledge among people who know boxing history that Ali did not go all out in sparring, and that he was finished by the time he fought Young. Only boxing novices would unaware of those two points.

By your logic, Ocasio was better than Young.

Poor ifeelfine is in AGONY.

Young made a total ASS out of Ali.

Since the halfwits who post on these internet "boxing" sites don't know the most absolute fundamentals of boxing--and never will--

they look for some other excuse for Ali's pathetic 'performance' against Young.

Young gave Ali a BOXING LESSON.

It was embarrassing to watch.

Nonsense Young lost the fight on everyone's card. And it could not be considered the biggest robbery of all time. Not even in the top 20 but because it's Ali you want to make it some sort of stellar event.

And a younger version of Ali would beat the PeeWaddlyPoo out of a prime Mr Young. Are you going to say that prime for prime Young handily defeats Ali? Or is that far too embarrasing a statement for even you to make? (Actully I don't think there is anything too embarrassing for you to put your name to, as long as it is derrogartory about Ali or SRL.)

So go on the record and tell us how Young would Beat Ali prime vs prime.
Or is this going to be another 3 month gestation period before you shamelessy answer my question? Sort of like the NON ANSWER you gave about Terrell's Drubbing at the hands of "The Greatest".

granberry someday before you breathe your last, your going to say that these guys "weren't that bad" in order to make peace with your maker. You don't want live your whole life out in denial do you?

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Not as badly as Charles made Louis look.

And, again, its almost common knowledge among people who know boxing history that Ali did not go all out in sparring, and that he was finished by the time he fought Young. Only boxing novices would unaware of those two points.

By your logic, Ocasio was better than Young.

Poor ifeelfine is in AGONY.

Young made a total ASS out of Ali.

Since the halfwits who post on these internet "boxing" sites don't know the most absolute fundamentals of boxing--and never will--

they look for some other excuse for Ali's pathetic 'performance' against Young.

Young gave Ali a BOXING LESSON.

It was embarrassing to watch.

Nonsense Young lost the fight on everyone's card. And it could not be considered the biggest robbery of all time. Not even in the top 20 but because it's Ali you want to make it some sort of stellar event.

And a younger version of Ali would beat the PeeWaddlyPoo out of a prime Mr Young. Are you going to say that prime for prime Young handily defeats Ali? Or is that far too embarrasing a statement for even you to make? (Actully I don't think there is anything too embarrassing for you to put your name to, as long as it is derrogartory about Ali or SRL.)

So go on the record and tell us how Young would Beat Ali prime vs prime.
Or is this going to be another 3 month gestation period before you shamelessy answer my question? Sort of like the NON ANSWER you gave about Terrell's Drubbing at the hands of "The Greatest".

granberry someday before you breathe your last, your going to say that these guys "weren't that bad" in order to make peace with your maker. You don't want live your whole life out in denial do you?

It is agony being a member of the Religion of Ali, as poor buzz is.

Go console yourself with your Thomas Hauser books, buzz.

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Not as badly as Charles made Louis look.

And, again, its almost common knowledge among people who know boxing history that Ali did not go all out in sparring, and that he was finished by the time he fought Young. Only boxing novices would unaware of those two points.

By your logic, Ocasio was better than Young.

Poor ifeelfine is in AGONY.

Young made a total ASS out of Ali.

Since the halfwits who post on these internet "boxing" sites don't know the most absolute fundamentals of boxing--and never will--

they look for some other excuse for Ali's pathetic 'performance' against Young.

Young gave Ali a BOXING LESSON.

It was embarrassing to watch.

If that's your opinion granberry then I'm comfortable with it, so long as you take your opinion to its logical conclusion and admit that Louis would therefore never beat Charles and that Young would never beat Ocasio. Something tells me you're not willing to do that.

granberry wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

granberry wrote: Poor ifeelfine is in AGONY.

Young made a total ASS out of Ali.

Since the halfwits who post on these internet "boxing" sites don't know the most absolute fundamentals of boxing--and never will--

they look for some other excuse for Ali's pathetic 'performance' against Young.

Young gave Ali a BOXING LESSON.

It was embarrassing to watch.

Nonsense Young lost the fight on everyone's card. And it could not be considered the biggest robbery of all time. Not even in the top 20 but because it's Ali you want to make it some sort of stellar event.

And a younger version of Ali would beat the PeeWaddlyPoo out of a prime Mr Young. Are you going to say that prime for prime Young handily defeats Ali? Or is that far too embarrasing a statement for even you to make? (Actully I don't think there is anything too embarrassing for you to put your name to, as long as it is derrogartory about Ali or SRL.)

So go on the record and tell us how Young would Beat Ali prime vs prime.
Or is this going to be another 3 month gestation period before you shamelessy answer my question? Sort of like the NON ANSWER you gave about Terrell's Drubbing at the hands of "The Greatest".

granberry someday before you breathe your last, your going to say that these guys "weren't that bad" in order to make peace with your maker. You don't want live your whole life out in denial do you?

It is agony being a member of the Religion of Ali, as poor buzz is.

Go console yourself with your Thomas Hauser books, buzz.

I think we have established that our library's are not that disimilar.....it's just that we see the information that we read a bit differently.

Oh...and that's not really an answer....is it. Once again just as with the Terrell fight...you refuse to take responsibility for an opinion that you SEEM to be implying. Stop being a shill, straighten up and fly right.

"Internet "boxing" site posting in all its glory.

The clueless making up fairy tales.

Go to it, halfwits." - Gran

Just my take. How do you see it going down, Gran?

Will you not answer me on the Slugfest thread?

I know one that has most likely been mentioned is Barkley over Hearns,

I have aways liked Hearns, and never got excited about Barkley, but he seemed to just have the number to beat Hearns.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Internet "boxing" site posting in all its glory.

The clueless making up fairy tales.

Go to it, halfwits." - Gran

Just my take. How do you see it going down, Gran?

Will you not answer me on the Slugfest thread?

I leave the fairy tales to the fairies.

In the real world Ali didn't have a clue how to fight a fighter like Young.

Don't cop out on me, Gran. You're too good for that.

Ali '67 -vs- Young '77? How would it play out? You know how I see it, how about you?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Don't cop out on me, Gran. You're too good for that.

Ali '67 -vs- Young '77? How would it play out? You know how I see it, how about you?

Forget about it...he won't answer the more embarassing questions. He will give NO ground when it comes to certain fighters and there abilities or lack thereof in his opinion.

To Him Ali and SRL careers are both a series of flukes, fakes and fixes and nothing less. Not much Different than Primo Carnera. Unless of course he wants to defend Primo....which would not surprise me.

I've come to believe Ali stole his girlfriend along the way in life.

Young would be an underdog but he COULD have beaten Ali. of course it's hard to bet against Ali, but Young is one of those who would have been hard for any champ to have beaten.

Ezzard wrote:Young would be an underdog but he COULD have beaten Ali. of course it's hard to bet against Ali, but Young is one of those who would have been hard for any champ to have beaten.

Agreed, Young could compete with anyone, but the problem here is that granberry implys it would be a certainty that Young would win. It happens that I would bet on Ali and take my chances knowing full well that there would be risk involved. However I think I would have a better than even chance of collecting at the end of the day.


Just Like NFL football, on any given event between two competent opponents...anything can happen.

ONLY members of the Religion of Ali are ignorant of the fact that "judges" automatically declared Ali the "winner" of any fight that he was not knocked out in.

ONLY members of the Religion of Ali

don't know that one "judge" gave Jimmy Young THREE ROUNDS out of fifteen.

Ali could not lose a decision.

Sugar Ray Leonard could not lose a decision.

Leonard was knocked down TWICE by Hearns and got a "draw."

If Leonard had knocked Hearns down twice would Hearns have gotten a draw?

Swallow your horsesh*t, Religion of Ali members,

and whine in agony when anyone points out the raw horsesh*t that your hero's career is comprised of.