BoxRec

granberry wrote:

pundit wrote:

BigJuicyHog wrote:Is Gran drunk in this thread?

No, he is always like that.

punkit belongs to the Ken Burns (agenda-driven) school of boxing 'expertise.'

You shouod talk more to classboxer. You guys would get on great.

Marciano did not have the politically correct skin pigmentation, so he can't be any good.
.

Hmmmm... he had the same skin pigmentation as Harry Greb, Willie Pep or Roberto Duran -- and these guys were very good.

Perfect example:

What did Marciano do with his right forearm/arm just after he hit Rex Layne with a right hand and knocked him out?

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:I'm sorry, is this whole thing some kind of joke?
We are now to the point of saying that Marciano had a very solid defense? Rocky Marciano?Wow.

I'm sure there is a video of Chris Bryd actually knocking someone out. Does this means that he was a brutal puncher?

Marciano often led with head, inviting it to be hit.
Yes, he was vulnerable to counter punching, especially since some of his wild punches missed by a lot much which left himself so wide open.
Being vulnerable to counter punching isn't an excuse for getting hit a lot.

Outside of the 2nd Marciano-Walcott "fight", how many fights has anyone seen of Marciano that he got hit very little?

Walcott hit him a lot in their first fight, a slipping Ezzard Charles hit him a lot, a shot old Joe Louis hit Marciano more than he should have been able to. Ancient Archie certainly got to him several times. And yes, Roland LaStarza hit Marciano fairly often in their second fight, which is available on film.
In their first fight, which unfortunately isn't available on film, LaStarza allegedly hit Marciano quite a bit and many people who attended the fight thought that LaStarza should have gotten the decision.

If by your definition Rocky had a poor defense, Evander Holyfield's defense plain sucked.

Holyfield wasn't a great defensive fighter; I don't know anyone that thinks that he was. (Though lately I have heard crazier things on this forum.)

However, when Holyfield was close to his prime, he got hit less often than Marciano did by generally better competition than Marciano faced.

If you get hit a lot, (which Marciano did) then you don't have that good of a defense. This isn't exactly brain surgery here.

You need to re-watch Rocky's fights. Marciano was never hit by flush combinations the way Holyfield was. And I'm just including his fights with Qawi, Dokes, Cooper, Stewart . . certainly a group below the calibre of Charles, Walcott, and Moore, despite their advanced age.

granberry wrote:Perfect example:

What did Marciano do with his right forearm/arm just after he hit Rex Layne with a right hand and knocked him out?

Ordered a beer?

pundit wrote:

granberry wrote:

pundit wrote: No, he is always like that.

punkit belongs to the Ken Burns (agenda-driven) school of boxing 'expertise.'

You shouod talk more to classboxer. You guys would get on great.

Marciano did not have the politically correct skin pigmentation, so he can't be any good.
.

Hmmmm... he had the same skin pigmentation as Harry Greb, Willie Pep or Roberto Duran -- and these guys were very good.

punkit doesn't have a clue, does he?

And he is EAGER to demonstrtate he doesn't have a CLUE.

pundit wrote:

granberry wrote:Perfect example:

What did Marciano do with his right forearm/arm just after he hit Rex Layne with a right hand and knocked him out?

Ordered a beer?

That's what punkit does rather than see the fights under discussion.

But that doesn't stop him from polluting the thread with his low grade imbecile posts.

granberry wrote:

pundit wrote:

granberry wrote:Perfect example:

What did Marciano do with his right forearm/arm just after he hit Rex Layne with a right hand and knocked him out?

Ordered a beer?

That's what punkit does rather than see the fights under discussion.

But that doesn't stop him from polluting the thread with his low grade imbecile posts.

I always adapt to the level of my discussion partners.

granberry wrote:

pundit wrote:

granberry wrote: punkit belongs to the Ken Burns (agenda-driven) school of boxing 'expertise.'

You shouod talk more to classboxer. You guys would get on great.

Marciano did not have the politically correct skin pigmentation, so he can't be any good.
.

Hmmmm... he had the same skin pigmentation as Harry Greb, Willie Pep or Roberto Duran -- and these guys were very good.

punkit doesn't have a clue, does he?

And he is EAGER to demonstrtate he doesn't have a CLUE.

Tell me exactly where the dissent is. Greb, Pepe and Duran weren't good? Or they weren't white?

You know pundit, you might want to refer to him as "gran illusion berry".

pundit wrote:

granberry wrote:

pundit wrote: You shouod talk more to classboxer. You guys would get on great.
Hmmmm... he had the same skin pigmentation as Harry Greb, Willie Pep or Roberto Duran -- and these guys were very good.

punkit doesn't have a clue, does he?

And he is EAGER to demonstrtate he doesn't have a CLUE.

Tell me exactly where the dissent is. Greb, Pepe and Duran weren't good? Or they weren't white?

First you tell me what Marciano did with his right forearm just after he knocked out Rex Layne with a right hand.

Then go back and watch your Ken Burns videos with Bert Sugar explaining boxing to you.

Talk about a low grade imbecile.

granberry wrote:

pundit wrote:

granberry wrote: punkit doesn't have a clue, does he?

And he is EAGER to demonstrtate he doesn't have a CLUE.

Tell me exactly where the dissent is. Greb, Pepe and Duran weren't good? Or they weren't white?

First you tell me what Marciano did with his right forearm just after he knocked out Rex Layne with a right hand. Then go back and watch your Ken Burns videos with Bert Sugar explaining boxing to you.

What for. I have you, after all.

Marciano got hit a lot in his fights. He wasn't Tex Cobb, he could slip punches and he wasn't exactly an easy fighter to hit, but that doesn't make him a great defensive fighter. One need only see Maciano's face after the Walcott fight to see that all of those defensive maneuvers didn't prevent him from taking a lot of Walcott's shots, for example.

dempseyfire wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: If by your definition Rocky had a poor defense, Evander Holyfield's defense plain sucked.

Holyfield wasn't a great defensive fighter; I don't know anyone that thinks that he was. (Though lately I have heard crazier things on this forum.)

However, when Holyfield was close to his prime, he got hit less often than Marciano did by generally better competition than Marciano faced.

If you get hit a lot, (which Marciano did) then you don't have that good of a defense. This isn't exactly brain surgery here.

You need to re-watch Rocky's fights. Marciano was never hit by flush combinations the way Holyfield was. And I'm just including his fights with Qawi, Dokes, Cooper, Stewart . . certainly a group below the calibre of Charles, Walcott, and Moore, despite their advanced age.

Oh come on. Marciano was hit a lot cleanly in almost every fight that anyone has seen him. Leading with your head and coming right at your opponent makes you easy to hit.
Charles didn't have a lot left when he fought Marciano. (He lost 5 times in the last three years). Yet, he was competitive against Marciano got hit as much as he did showed that he wasn't hard to hit.

Walcott was 38 and hit Marciano plenty of times. He was ahead in the fight after 12 rounds.
Moore was 38, already had well over 100 fights and he hit Marciano pretty frequently.
Marciano even got tagged a few times by a washed up Joe Louis.
La Starza hit him plenty, especially in the early rounds.

How about Marciano's fights against the great Ted Lowry? This guy had a career losing record. Yet most people thought he hit Marciano enough to win their first fight and possibly their second. Same with LaStarza in their first fight.

No, I don't think that Holyfield was a good defensive fighter. That was his biggest weakness. However, he certainly was as bad as Marciano. Holyfield atleast varied his offense, which made him harder to hit. He would slug toe to toe, but he would mix that up with boxing from long range and bounching on his feet from time to time.
Holyfield wasn't nearly as wild of a puncher as Marciano. He didn't leave himself so wide open after throwing a punch nearly as often as Marciano.

The fights that you mentioned really don't show that he was a bad as Marciano.
You shouldn't even count the Qawi fight. It was only his 12th career fight. He was in their against an extremely tough guy and 15 rounds; he never went more than 8 rounds before. He really didn't get hit that much by Cooper. He was pretty much in control of the fight until Cooper got him into trouble against the ropes and it was ruled a knockdown.
Stewart got some shots in but not really that much.

The Dokes that Holyfield fought would have been a handful for almost anyone, including Marciano. When he came to fight, he was very good.

Marciano was a great fighter with great attributes; Power, chin,toughness. However, he wasn't hard to hit. This is as plain as day. It's mind boggling to think anyone would think he was.

Ambling Alp wrote: He really didn't get hit that much by Cooper. He was pretty much in control of the fight until Cooper got him into trouble against the ropes and it was ruled a knockdown.

Cooper was beating the sh*t out of Billygoat Holyfield.

Mills Lane saved Holyfield's neck by calling a standing count just as Cooper was about finish Holyfield off.
That was an obvious saving of Holyfield's neck.

Mills Lane did that to keep Cooper from hitting Holyfield again while he was ready to go.

Holyfield fought an old Holmes and an old Foreman a total of 24 rounds and never scored a knockdown.

Yeah, he was a real worldbeater.

(As long as he had Mills Lane there to save his neck).

The link to the Marciano video showing his defensive skills doesn't mean anything. If you played the actual footage, in real time, without repeating it in slow motion, it would probably add upto about 30 seconds of fighting. You can make anyone look better than they really are by doing this. Even Holyfield could be made to look like a defensive genius with a bit of editing and picking out snippets from fights.

You only have to look at Marcianos face to see he took more than his fair share of punches. Yes he had defensive ability to an extent, but he was no Pernell Whitaker either.

Controversial wrote:
Marciano ... was no Pernell Whitaker either.

Pernell Whitaker was no Marciano.

LOL

Rocky isn't tanned enough.

rocky was a great fighter it was his attack that made him great defiantly not his defence

49-0

Chavez at one point was 89-0... didn't make him a great defensive fighter.

Chavez is not heavyweight boxer.
He never fought in ultimate division. His record is just "0" in heavyweight.

bull wrote:Chavez is not heavyweight boxer.
He never fought in ultimate division. His record is just "0" in heavyweight.

Excellent.
.

bull wrote:Chavez is not heavyweight boxer.
He never fought in ultimate division. His record is just "0" in heavyweight.

And?

bull wrote:Chavez is not heavyweight boxer.
He never fought in ultimate division. His record is just "0" in heavyweight.

That's.... retarded.

"Marciano got hit cleanly plenty of times by Ancient Archie. "

Anyone in history would be hit plenty of times by "ancient" archie. The man was a sharpshooter.