BoxRec

I try to be diplomatic and neutral on it all.

Ambling Alp wrote:I think he had the "Iron Constitution" then, he just didn't have to use it. I don't see the induction as having anything to do with making him tougher or have more heart or anything like that.

Obviously you didn't live through the period or you wouldn't sum up his experiences during that time as "the induction".

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Weight doesn't matter. I've heard it all, now. Making the claim Ali's title reign 1964-67 is arguably the best (or even one of the top five) in boxing history is as absurd as it comes.

No Frazier doesn't get extra credit for beating Buster Mathis. Mathis was fat and weighed way too much. Why should Frazier get special credit for beating him?

Ali stopped a great fighter in 6 rounds to win the title. He went 10-0 with 8 knockouts and two lopsided decision wins. Anyone that was worthy of a title shot got one.
Please tell me realistically what more you would have expected Ali to have done during this title reign.

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:I think he had the "Iron Constitution" then, he just didn't have to use it. I don't see the induction as having anything to do with making him tougher or have more heart or anything like that.

Obviously you didn't live through the period or you wouldn't sum up his experiences during that time as "the induction".

Well obviously there was more to it than that.
Here is what I don't understand.
We constantly hear about his tough fight with Jones. He did tough it out and won the fight against a good opponent.
We often hear about the knockdown against Cooper. He got up and won the fight.

These fights were before he won the title.

We are then supposed to believe that he didn't have heart/ guts whatever you want to call it when he was beating everyone easily in his prime of 1964-1967.

Then he has guts/heart during his fights in the the 1970's.

To me it's obvious that he had those qualities during 1964-1967. He was just so much better than his competition that he never had to reach back for it.
Btw, doesn't it take some guts/heart to fight for more than two minutes virtually blind against Sonny Liston?

To me it's this simple.
On his way up when he was inexperienced, he had a couple of fights that he had to show his heart.
When he became more experienced and was in his prime, he didn't have to show that since he so much better than his opponents and won so easily.
Than when he was past his prime and his speed and reflexes were declining, he toughed it in competitive fights becasue he had to.

To me it seems you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
If he had struggled in any of his fights in his prime it would be pointed out constantly. Since he didn't, to criticize him, all that is left is to speculate that he didn't have heart. There is really no evidence to back this up whatsoever.

Ambling Alp wrote:To me it seems you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
If he had struggled in any of his fights in his prime it would be pointed out constantly. Since he didn't, to criticize him, all that is left is to speculate that he didn't have heart. There is really no evidence to back this up whatsoever.

Alp, the world is not black and white and I at no time said that the young Ali didn’t have heart. Unfortunately, it’s hard to view your over the top assessment of a “prime” Ali as any more credible than those posters who constantly take the extreme opposite opinion of “The Greatest”.

Ok, why is it over the top?
He beat a great fighter for the title.
He made a lot of defenses.
He fought everyone that deserved a shot.
He won every fight easily.
He even defended his title in his opponent's home country all 4 times that he fought someone from another country.

Realistically, what more could he have done?

Ambling Alp wrote:Ok, why is it over the top?
He beat a great fighter for the title.
He made a lot of defenses.
He fought everyone that deserved a shot.
He won every fight easily.
He even defended his title in his opponent's home country all 4 times that he fought someone from another country.

Realistically, what more could he have done?

I’m not saying he wasn’t great, or that he wasn’t the top HW of all time. It’s your assessment of how he would do against Holmes, Frazier, Norton, etc. that I find extreme.

Please explain what Ali did during this period that would make you 100% confident that he could beat a prime Frazier? I see NO ONE on his resume that fought even remotely like Frazier. It has nothing to do with what more he could have done, simply that it seems unreasonable to assume that he could have easily beaten another ATG that fought drastically different than any other fighter he had fought up to that time in his career.

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Ok, why is it over the top?
He beat a great fighter for the title.
He made a lot of defenses.
He fought everyone that deserved a shot.
He won every fight easily.
He even defended his title in his opponent's home country all 4 times that he fought someone from another country.

Realistically, what more could he have done?

I’m not saying he wasn’t great, or that he wasn’t the top HW of all time. It’s your assessment of how he would do against Holmes, Frazier, Norton, etc. that I find extreme.

Please explain what Ali did during this period that would make you 100% confident that he could beat a prime Frazier? I see NO ONE on his resume that fought even remotely like Frazier. It has nothing to do with what more he could have done, simply that it seems unreasonable to assume that he could have easily beaten another ATG that fought drastically different than any other fighter he had fought up to that time in his career.

Agree, having easy times with Terrell, Patterson, an old Folley etc. does not translate into easy victories over Frazier or Norton.

Tons of great fighters have had impressive 10 fight winning streaks, I'm sure lots of people would be going on about Tyson being unbeatable during his 10 fight streak in the 80s if he'd gone to jail for rape before Tokyo. You're really going overboard. Ali was 29 years old, had gone 18 rounds with top HWs to get his timing back, and Frazier gave him a whupping. Your fantasy of a slightly younger Ali just razzle-dazzling Joe is simply that, a fantasy. Frazier gives any version of Ali complete hell.

The ridiculous love affair people have with Larry Holmes disgusts me. Ali in his prime would've made a prime Holmes look like a fool. It would've been like Jones-Hopkins.

Diamond WEAPON wrote:The ridiculous love affair people have with Larry Holmes disgusts me. Ali in his prime would've made a prime Holmes look like a fool. It would've been like Jones-Hopkins.

Riiight . . . .

dempseyfire wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Ok, why is it over the top?
He beat a great fighter for the title.
He made a lot of defenses.
He fought everyone that deserved a shot.
He won every fight easily.
He even defended his title in his opponent's home country all 4 times that he fought someone from another country.

Realistically, what more could he have done?

I’m not saying he wasn’t great, or that he wasn’t the top HW of all time. It’s your assessment of how he would do against Holmes, Frazier, Norton, etc. that I find extreme.

Please explain what Ali did during this period that would make you 100% confident that he could beat a prime Frazier? I see NO ONE on his resume that fought even remotely like Frazier. It has nothing to do with what more he could have done, simply that it seems unreasonable to assume that he could have easily beaten another ATG that fought drastically different than any other fighter he had fought up to that time in his career.

Agree, having easy times with Terrell, Patterson, an old Folley etc. does not translate into easy victories over Frazier or Norton.

Tons of great fighters have had impressive 10 fight winning streaks, I'm sure lots of people would be going on about Tyson being unbeatable during his 10 fight streak in the 80s if he'd gone to jail for rape before Tokyo. You're really going overboard. Ali was 29 years old, had gone 18 rounds with top HWs to get his timing back, and Frazier gave him a whupping. Your fantasy of a slightly younger Ali just razzle-dazzling Joe is simply that, a fantasy. Frazier gives any version of Ali complete hell.

Well, Chuvalo fought remotely like Joe Frazier. Of course he wasn't as good, but Ali beat him easily. Liston was almost as good as Frazier and Ali stopped him 6 rounds.

Do you really believe ali was at his best when he fought Frazier the first time. He was off for 3 and a half years. The two fights helped some, but he had some ring rust.

Any version of Frazier would give him hell? Well Frazier didn't give him hell in their 2nd fight. Ali was 31 by then. Ali won the third fight as well. That fight Frazier did give him hell, but Ali did win.
The older slower version ali of the earlier 1970's beat the younger Frazier two out of three. Ali from the mid 60's would have had an easier time.
Ali would have been on his feet more, and would have been hit a lot less.
He would have hit Frazier more with his handspeed and reflexes. It wouldn't be a cakewalk, but it would have been as competitive as it was in the 1970's either.
Frazier would probably give him more trouble than anyone else, but Ali would win.

Tons of great fighters have 10 fight win streaks? How many heavyweight champions did this in title fights in the history of boxing? The answer is 4. (Not including Tommy Burns reign of terror). The other 3 are Louis, Holmes, and Tyson.
None of those three had to beat a fighter as good as Liston to win the title.
None of them fought tougher overall competition in their streaks than Ali.
All three had fights where they struggled.
Ali never did.

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

The Great John L wrote: I’m not saying he wasn’t great, or that he wasn’t the top HW of all time. It’s your assessment of how he would do against Holmes, Frazier, Norton, etc. that I find extreme.

Please explain what Ali did during this period that would make you 100% confident that he could beat a prime Frazier? I see NO ONE on his resume that fought even remotely like Frazier. It has nothing to do with what more he could have done, simply that it seems unreasonable to assume that he could have easily beaten another ATG that fought drastically different than any other fighter he had fought up to that time in his career.

Agree, having easy times with Terrell, Patterson, an old Folley etc. does not translate into easy victories over Frazier or Norton.

Tons of great fighters have had impressive 10 fight winning streaks, I'm sure lots of people would be going on about Tyson being unbeatable during his 10 fight streak in the 80s if he'd gone to jail for rape before Tokyo. You're really going overboard. Ali was 29 years old, had gone 18 rounds with top HWs to get his timing back, and Frazier gave him a whupping. Your fantasy of a slightly younger Ali just razzle-dazzling Joe is simply that, a fantasy. Frazier gives any version of Ali complete hell.

Well, Chuvalo fought remotely like Joe Frazier. Of course he wasn't as good, but Ali beat him easily. Liston was almost as good as Frazier and Ali stopped him 6 rounds.

Do you really believe ali was at his best when he fought Frazier the first time. He was off for 3 and a half years. The two fights helped some, but he had some ring rust.

Any version of Frazier would give him hell? Well Frazier didn't give him hell in their 2nd fight. Ali was 31 by then. Ali won the third fight as well. That fight Frazier did give him hell, but Ali did win.
The older slower version ali of the earlier 1970's beat the younger Frazier two out of three. Ali from the mid 60's would have had an easier time.
Ali would have been on his feet more, and would have been hit a lot less.
He would have hit Frazier more with his handspeed and reflexes. It wouldn't be a cakewalk, but it would have been as competitive as it was in the 1970's either.
Frazier would probably give him more trouble than anyone else, but Ali would win.

Tons of great fighters have 10 fight win streaks? How many heavyweight champions did this in title fights in the history of boxing? The answer is 4. The other 3 are Louis, Holmes, and Tyson.
None of those three had to beat a fighter as good as Liston to win the title.
None of them fought tougher overall competition in their streaks than Ali.
All three had fights where they struggled.
Ali never did.

Ali clearly outpointed Chuvalo, but he took a hellacious beating to the body the whole night and had to pull out everything to keep Chuvalo off of him. Not an easy fight at all.

And Ali didn't "stop" Liston. Liston injured his shoulder, just like Vitali did vs Byrd. The fight wasn't one-sided at all, I had it even after 6, as did many sprots-writers. And Liston and Frazier had completly different styles. This re-writing of history almost makes me want to join granberry's corner, it's unbelievable.

Ali didn't have an easy time in the Frazier rematch . .I scored that fight a draw and Ali did a ridiculous amount of illegal holding in that fight. I don't give a round to a fighter who holds 2 minutes of the round. That fight stunk to high heavens.

You don't lose your reflexes at age 29, sorry. You can lose your timing after a long layoff, but fighting again can bring that back. Ali wasn't 100% the same as the 67 Ali in the first Frazier fight, but he was pretty damn close, definitely somewhere in the 90 percentile. This whole "ali could dance around Frazier" bs is crap, as Ali actually had his best rounds vs Frazier in all 3 of their fights when he stood flat-footed and delivered hard shots to Joe's head. When Ali danced Frazier would time Ali's jabs to counter, and Ali didn't have the power on his toes to keep Frazier from coming in. Ali didn't dance very much vs Chuvalo either, b/c Chuvalo worked his body over, and you can't glide around the ring when your ribs have been turned to mush. George just didn't have the skills/speed of Frazier.

Louis had a better 10 fight streak than Ali from 64-67.

I dont find that much love for Holmes. So I dont know where that comes from ?

Maybe if some of Holmes' fights were in black and white he would be rated a little higher by some.

dempseyfire - You had the Liston-Ali fight even ? What are saying, it could have gone either way if Liston didn't "hurt" his shoulder? That is unbleievable. He won round 5 (the round Ali fought blind) and that was it. He was getting hit a lot more than Ali. He was hurt, Ali never was. He was getting marked up. I didn't think anybody really believed that Liston hurt his shoulder. He was getting beat, knew he wasn't going to win, so he took the easy way out and quit.

You are one of the few people on earth that thinks the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight was a draw. Ali hit Frazier a lot more than Frazier hit him. Even the nutjobs don't argue this one.

Ali beat the younger Frazier two out of 3 after the long layoff when he clearly wasn't as fast and didn't have the reflexes that he once did. He had plenty of success when he would dance around in spurts in all three of their fights.
Chuvalo's body shots weren't nearly enough. Ali still won almost every round.

The Joe Louis title win streak was better? How about we actually take a look at that.
Here the comparison in chronological order:
1. Ali Sonny Liston. -Louis KO 8Jim Braddock (Louis got decked)
2. Ali beat Liston. -Louis won a tough 15 round decision over Tommy Farr
3. Ali beat Patterson. -Louis beat Nathan Mann.
4. Ali beat Chuvalo by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
5. Ali beat Henry Cooper. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
6. Ali beat Brian London. -Louis KO 1 Max Schmeling
7. Ali beat Karl Mildenberger.- Louis beat John Henry Lewis
8. Ali beat Cleveland Williams.-Louis beat Tony Galento (Louis got decked)
9. Ali beat Terrell by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Bob Pastor
10. Ali beat Zora Folley. -Louis won a tough decision over Artuo Godoy.

Man for man, Ali's opponents were better. Fight #6, Schmeling was better than London. I'll give Louis Fight #7, Lewis being better than Mildenberger. The rest of the time Ali's opponents were better.
If you don't want to count #2 because of all the controversy with Liston then don't count Fight #7 for Louis since John Henry Lewis was almost blind and was looking for a payday before he retired.

8 out of the 10 Ali's opponents were superior.
Louis got decked twice, Ali wasn't knocked down.
Both won 8 of the their 10 by KO.
Louis' fights that went the distance were more competitive than Ali's.

Louis was either knocked down or had a tough fight in 4 of his 10 fights. This didn't happen to Ali in any of his fights. This isn't that hard to figure out. Ali had far less trouble against better overall competition than Louis. Ali was more impressive.

Ambling Alp wrote:dempseyfire - You had the Liston-Ali fight even ? What are saying, it could have gone either way if Liston didn't "hurt" his shoulder? That is unbleievable. He won round 5 (the round Ali fought blind) and that was it. He was getting hit a lot more than Ali. He was hurt, Ali never was. He was getting marked up. I didn't think anybody really believed that Liston hurt his shoulder. He was getting beat, knew he wasn't going to win, so he took the easy way out and quit.

You are one of the few people on earth that thinks the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight was a draw. Ali hit Frazier a lot more than Frazier hit him. Even the nutjobs don't argue this one.

Ali beat the younger Frazier two out of 3 after the long layoff when he clearly wasn't as fast and didn't have the reflexes that he once did. He had plenty of success when he would dance around in spurts in all three of their fights.
Chuvalo's body shots weren't nearly enough. Ali still won almost every round.

The Joe Louis title win streak was better? How about we actually take a look at that.
Here the comparison in chronological order:
1. Ali Sonny Liston. -Louis KO 8Jim Braddock (Louis got decked)
2. Ali beat Liston. -Louis won a tough 15 round decision over Tommy Farr
3. Ali beat Patterson. -Louis beat Nathan Mann.
4. Ali beat Chuvalo by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
5. Ali beat Henry Cooper. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
6. Ali beat Brian London. -Louis KO 1 Max Schmeling
7. Ali beat Karl Mildenberger.- Louis beat John Henry Lewis
8. Ali beat Cleveland Williams.-Louis beat Tony Galento (Louis got decked)
9. Ali beat Terrell by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Bob Pastor
10. Ali beat Zora Folley. -Louis won a tough decision over Artuo Godoy.

Man for man, Ali's opponents were better. Fight #6, Schmeling was better than London. I'll give Louis Fight #7, Lewis being better than Mildenberger. The rest of the time Ali's opponents were better.
If you don't want to count #2 because of all the controversy with Liston then don't count Fight #7 for Louis since John Henry Lewis was almost blind and was looking for a payday before he retired.

8 out of the 10 Ali's opponents were superior.
Louis got decked twice, Ali wasn't knocked down.
Both won 8 of the their 10 by KO.
Louis' fights that went the distance were more competitive than Ali's.

Louis was either knocked down or had a tough fight in 4 of his 10 fights. This didn't happen to Ali in any of his fights. This isn't that hard to figure out. Ali had far less trouble against better overall competition than Louis. Ali was more impressive.

....He would'a been on the tour.....

Ambling Alp wrote:dempseyfire - You had the Liston-Ali fight even ? What are saying, it could have gone either way if Liston didn't "hurt" his shoulder? That is unbleievable. He won round 5 (the round Ali fought blind) and that was it. He was getting hit a lot more than Ali. He was hurt, Ali never was. He was getting marked up. I didn't think anybody really believed that Liston hurt his shoulder. He was getting beat, knew he wasn't going to win, so he took the easy way out and quit.

You are one of the few people on earth that thinks the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight was a draw. Ali hit Frazier a lot more than Frazier hit him. Even the nutjobs don't argue this one.

Ali beat the younger Frazier two out of 3 after the long layoff when he clearly wasn't as fast and didn't have the reflexes that he once did. He had plenty of success when he would dance around in spurts in all three of their fights.
Chuvalo's body shots weren't nearly enough. Ali still won almost every round.

The Joe Louis title win streak was better? How about we actually take a look at that.
Here the comparison in chronological order:
1. Ali Sonny Liston. -Louis KO 8Jim Braddock (Louis got decked)
2. Ali beat Liston. -Louis won a tough 15 round decision over Tommy Farr
3. Ali beat Patterson. -Louis beat Nathan Mann.
4. Ali beat Chuvalo by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
5. Ali beat Henry Cooper. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
6. Ali beat Brian London. -Louis KO 1 Max Schmeling
7. Ali beat Karl Mildenberger.- Louis beat John Henry Lewis
8. Ali beat Cleveland Williams.-Louis beat Tony Galento (Louis got decked)
9. Ali beat Terrell by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Bob Pastor
10. Ali beat Zora Folley. -Louis won a tough decision over Artuo Godoy.

Man for man, Ali's opponents were better. Fight #6, Schmeling was better than London. I'll give Louis Fight #7, Lewis being better than Mildenberger. The rest of the time Ali's opponents were better.
If you don't want to count #2 because of all the controversy with Liston then don't count Fight #7 for Louis since John Henry Lewis was almost blind and was looking for a payday before he retired.

8 out of the 10 Ali's opponents were superior.
Louis got decked twice, Ali wasn't knocked down.
Both won 8 of the their 10 by KO.
Louis' fights that went the distance were more competitive than Ali's.

Louis was either knocked down or had a tough fight in 4 of his 10 fights. This didn't happen to Ali in any of his fights. This isn't that hard to figure out. Ali had far less trouble against better overall competition than Louis. Ali was more impressive.

Liston won rounds 2 (how did Ali win that round?) round 4 (uneventful round but Liston lands the only punches of significance) and round 5. Yes, Liston really did hurt his shoulder, only the revisionist Ali romantics claim Liston was getting "so badly" beaten he quit. The only time Ali had Liston at all shaky was the beginning of the 3rd round (a round in which ironically Liston came back strong in, with some writers even scoring it even . .I still gave it to Ali) The last round, the 6th, consists, of Ali missing a bunch of left jabs. Surely nothing to "quit" over. You'll also notice Liston stops throwing his left after the 5th. I think he hurt his shoulder trying to wildly finish Clay in the 5th.

Godoy and Galento were more dangerous than the washed up versions of Williams and Folley ALi fought, and I think Pastor would have outpointed Chuvalo if they'd ever fought. I'd also put Farr ahead of the Patterson Ali fought.

I think someone has lost the plot here!

So Ali could have been beaten by Riddick "I'm Scared of Lennox so I wont fight him" Bowe, utter rubbish.

dempseyfire wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:dempseyfire - You had the Liston-Ali fight even ? What are saying, it could have gone either way if Liston didn't "hurt" his shoulder? That is unbleievable. He won round 5 (the round Ali fought blind) and that was it. He was getting hit a lot more than Ali. He was hurt, Ali never was. He was getting marked up. I didn't think anybody really believed that Liston hurt his shoulder. He was getting beat, knew he wasn't going to win, so he took the easy way out and quit.

You are one of the few people on earth that thinks the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight was a draw. Ali hit Frazier a lot more than Frazier hit him. Even the nutjobs don't argue this one.

Ali beat the younger Frazier two out of 3 after the long layoff when he clearly wasn't as fast and didn't have the reflexes that he once did. He had plenty of success when he would dance around in spurts in all three of their fights.
Chuvalo's body shots weren't nearly enough. Ali still won almost every round.

The Joe Louis title win streak was better? How about we actually take a look at that.
Here the comparison in chronological order:
1. Ali Sonny Liston. -Louis KO 8Jim Braddock (Louis got decked)
2. Ali beat Liston. -Louis won a tough 15 round decision over Tommy Farr
3. Ali beat Patterson. -Louis beat Nathan Mann.
4. Ali beat Chuvalo by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
5. Ali beat Henry Cooper. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
6. Ali beat Brian London. -Louis KO 1 Max Schmeling
7. Ali beat Karl Mildenberger.- Louis beat John Henry Lewis
8. Ali beat Cleveland Williams.-Louis beat Tony Galento (Louis got decked)
9. Ali beat Terrell by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Bob Pastor
10. Ali beat Zora Folley. -Louis won a tough decision over Artuo Godoy.

Man for man, Ali's opponents were better. Fight #6, Schmeling was better than London. I'll give Louis Fight #7, Lewis being better than Mildenberger. The rest of the time Ali's opponents were better.
If you don't want to count #2 because of all the controversy with Liston then don't count Fight #7 for Louis since John Henry Lewis was almost blind and was looking for a payday before he retired.

8 out of the 10 Ali's opponents were superior.
Louis got decked twice, Ali wasn't knocked down.
Both won 8 of the their 10 by KO.
Louis' fights that went the distance were more competitive than Ali's.

Louis was either knocked down or had a tough fight in 4 of his 10 fights. This didn't happen to Ali in any of his fights. This isn't that hard to figure out. Ali had far less trouble against better overall competition than Louis. Ali was more impressive.

Liston won rounds 2 (how did Ali win that round?) round 4 (uneventful round but Liston lands the only punches of significance) and round 5. Yes, Liston really did hurt his shoulder, only the revisionist Ali romantics claim Liston was getting "so badly" beaten he quit. The only time Ali had Liston at all shaky was the beginning of the 3rd round (a round in which ironically Liston came back strong in, with some writers even scoring it even . .I still gave it to Ali) The last round, the 6th, consists, of Ali missing a bunch of left jabs. Surely nothing to "quit" over. You'll also notice Liston stops throwing his left after the 5th. I think he hurt his shoulder trying to wildly finish Clay in the 5th.

Godoy and Galento were more dangerous than the washed up versions of Williams and Folley ALi fought, and I think Pastor would have outpointed Chuvalo if they'd ever fought. I'd also put Farr ahead of the Patterson Ali fought.

Dempseyfire, I'm always open minded to different takes but based on your description Liston should have been looking pretty good at the end of the fight. Perhaps barely in a sweat. Except for perhaps clutching his shoulder in pain. I'm not saying he didn't hurt his shoulder, but Liston did look like 40 miles of bad road by the end of the fight. Did he show up looking like that? Or did something happen to him during that fight to cause him to appear to be a bit beaten and shaken?

I'm sort of kidding as your description was very brief, but of the two men one seemed to be just getting started and the other quite finished. The following rounds would not have been kind to a Liston with an unstrained shoulder...IMHO.

It looks like Alp is using the same strategy that prime BrocktonBlockbuster49 used to use. Keep up the pressure with high volume posts until the opponent(s) will is completely destroyed.

I for one have an injured shoulder and will retire from this debate.

Ambling Alp wrote:
The Joe Louis title win streak was better? How about we actually take a look at that.
Here the comparison in chronological order:
1. Ali Sonny Liston. -Louis KO 8Jim Braddock (Louis got decked)
2. Ali beat Liston. -Louis won a tough 15 round decision over Tommy Farr
3. Ali beat Patterson. -Louis beat Nathan Mann.
4. Ali beat Chuvalo by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
5. Ali beat Henry Cooper. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
6. Ali beat Brian London. -Louis KO 1 Max Schmeling
7. Ali beat Karl Mildenberger.- Louis beat John Henry Lewis
8. Ali beat Cleveland Williams.-Louis beat Tony Galento (Louis got decked)
9. Ali beat Terrell by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Bob Pastor
10. Ali beat Zora Folley. -Louis won a tough decision over Artuo Godoy.

Man for man, Ali's opponents were better. Fight #6, Schmeling was better than London. I'll give Louis Fight #7, Lewis being better than Mildenberger. The rest of the time Ali's opponents were better.
If you don't want to count #2 because of all the controversy with Liston then don't count Fight #7 for Louis since John Henry Lewis was almost blind and was looking for a payday before he retired.

8 out of the 10 Ali's opponents were superior.
Louis got decked twice, Ali wasn't knocked down.
Both won 8 of the their 10 by KO.
Louis' fights that went the distance were more competitive than Ali's.

Louis was either knocked down or had a tough fight in 4 of his 10 fights. This didn't happen to Ali in any of his fights. This isn't that hard to figure out. Ali had far less trouble against better overall competition than Louis. Ali was more impressive.

8/10 fighters were not superior. You've portrayed this falsely. Schmeling is better than all of Ali's other 9 opponents.

My top 5 would be...

Liston
Schmeling
Paterson
Farr
Braddock

Anyway...

It's all hair splitting IMO. Ali was a great fighter who would more than likley be the favourite in fights with all the guys in the debate. When 2 greats fight one another anything can happen.

I tend to see it that some people favour Ali some Louis. I think we can all live with that.

What many can't appreciate is that Ali is going to win them all without a glove being landed because of this Tyson-esque mythical prime he had.

I think his 60s reign was very, very good, it ranks highly at HW, but I don't think it was one of the greatest ever in boxing. Saying "what else could he could he have done" is not the point.

BoxBuzz wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:dempseyfire - You had the Liston-Ali fight even ? What are saying, it could have gone either way if Liston didn't "hurt" his shoulder? That is unbleievable. He won round 5 (the round Ali fought blind) and that was it. He was getting hit a lot more than Ali. He was hurt, Ali never was. He was getting marked up. I didn't think anybody really believed that Liston hurt his shoulder. He was getting beat, knew he wasn't going to win, so he took the easy way out and quit.

You are one of the few people on earth that thinks the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight was a draw. Ali hit Frazier a lot more than Frazier hit him. Even the nutjobs don't argue this one.

Ali beat the younger Frazier two out of 3 after the long layoff when he clearly wasn't as fast and didn't have the reflexes that he once did. He had plenty of success when he would dance around in spurts in all three of their fights.
Chuvalo's body shots weren't nearly enough. Ali still won almost every round.

The Joe Louis title win streak was better? How about we actually take a look at that.
Here the comparison in chronological order:
1. Ali Sonny Liston. -Louis KO 8Jim Braddock (Louis got decked)
2. Ali beat Liston. -Louis won a tough 15 round decision over Tommy Farr
3. Ali beat Patterson. -Louis beat Nathan Mann.
4. Ali beat Chuvalo by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
5. Ali beat Henry Cooper. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
6. Ali beat Brian London. -Louis KO 1 Max Schmeling
7. Ali beat Karl Mildenberger.- Louis beat John Henry Lewis
8. Ali beat Cleveland Williams.-Louis beat Tony Galento (Louis got decked)
9. Ali beat Terrell by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Bob Pastor
10. Ali beat Zora Folley. -Louis won a tough decision over Artuo Godoy.

Man for man, Ali's opponents were better. Fight #6, Schmeling was better than London. I'll give Louis Fight #7, Lewis being better than Mildenberger. The rest of the time Ali's opponents were better.
If you don't want to count #2 because of all the controversy with Liston then don't count Fight #7 for Louis since John Henry Lewis was almost blind and was looking for a payday before he retired.

8 out of the 10 Ali's opponents were superior.
Louis got decked twice, Ali wasn't knocked down.
Both won 8 of the their 10 by KO.
Louis' fights that went the distance were more competitive than Ali's.

Louis was either knocked down or had a tough fight in 4 of his 10 fights. This didn't happen to Ali in any of his fights. This isn't that hard to figure out. Ali had far less trouble against better overall competition than Louis. Ali was more impressive.

Liston won rounds 2 (how did Ali win that round?) round 4 (uneventful round but Liston lands the only punches of significance) and round 5. Yes, Liston really did hurt his shoulder, only the revisionist Ali romantics claim Liston was getting "so badly" beaten he quit. The only time Ali had Liston at all shaky was the beginning of the 3rd round (a round in which ironically Liston came back strong in, with some writers even scoring it even . .I still gave it to Ali) The last round, the 6th, consists, of Ali missing a bunch of left jabs. Surely nothing to "quit" over. You'll also notice Liston stops throwing his left after the 5th. I think he hurt his shoulder trying to wildly finish Clay in the 5th.

Godoy and Galento were more dangerous than the washed up versions of Williams and Folley ALi fought, and I think Pastor would have outpointed Chuvalo if they'd ever fought. I'd also put Farr ahead of the Patterson Ali fought.

Dempseyfire, I'm always open minded to different takes but based on your description Liston should have been looking pretty good at the end of the fight. Perhaps barely in a sweat. Except for perhaps clutching his shoulder in pain. I'm not saying he didn't hurt his shoulder, but Liston did look like 40 miles of bad road by the end of the fight. Did he show up looking like that? Or did something happen to him during that fight to cause him to appear to be a bit beaten and shaken?

I'm sort of kidding as your description was very brief, but of the two men one seemed to be just getting started and the other quite finished. The following rounds would not have been kind to a Liston with an unstrained shoulder...IMHO.

I'm not saying he would've won in either case. I'm just saying, all of the documentaries show HLs of the fight (the beginning of the 3rd and the 1st usually) which make it seem like Clay was just dancing along and making Liston look like a fool, and the popular venacular always states that Liston quit b.c he was a dog and getting outclassed. But it was a competetive fight up the point of Liston quitting, and I happen to believe Liston really did hurt his shoulder (everyone who knew him after his death confirmed he'd really hurt it, and IMO the fight points to Liston fighting with an injury after the 5th)
Ali won his rounds by a bigger margin than Liston did, but Liston still won rounds.
Put Ali in with a 1958 Liston, and I think Ali wins, but has one of the tougher fights of his career.

Agreed, either man in their prime is going to take a toll on their opponent.

Diamond WEAPON wrote:The ridiculous love affair people have with Larry Holmes disgusts me. Ali in his prime would've made a prime Holmes look like a fool. It would've been like Jones-Hopkins.

BULLSHIT, Larry Holmes was a gifted technician, probably a more complete fighter than Ali in his heyday. His jab, like Ali's were on of the very best pound per pound, all-time.

How could Ali beat Holmes a la Jones-Hopkins?...That is silly to me.

Robinson wrote:I dont find that much love for Holmes. So I dont know where that comes from ?

Maybe if some of Holmes' fights were in black and white he would be rated a little higher by some.

Probably that would be the truth. Nostalgia fighters would also destroy Mike Tyson, I don't get it, Robinson.

Well I guess I will try to answer comments from several people.

I compared Louis opponents to Ali's man for man. I don't see how Bob Pastor is better than Chuvalo. I don't even see that as an argument.
Folley was washed up? He was the #1 contender. He was a much better fighter than Artuo Godoy.
Cleveland Williams was washed up? Well, he was past his prime but he still had some gas in the tank. If Cleveland Williams was washed up, what were Jim Braddock and John Kenry Lewis when Louis fought them?
Williams was certainly better than Tony Galento. Galento's entire reputation is from knocking down Louis. He did nothing else of note in his entire career. Look at him on film against Max Baer. It's on youtube.

I'm not going to get into the BS about the first Liston fight. The people around Liston say his shoulder really did hurt. How surprising.

Tommy Farr was better than Patterson on the night that ali beat Patterson? Ok, I can just as easily say that Brian London was better than Schmeling (who was clueless once he got hurt) on the night Louis beat Schmeling. Karl Mildenberger was certainly a lot better than the blind John Henry Lewis looking for one last payday that Louis fought.

In 4 of Louis' 10 fights he either had a tough 15 round ecdion or got decked. This didn't happen in any of Ali's fights.

Ezzard-I will ask the question that no one wants to answer. What could Ali have done to make his reign better?
He beat a very good champion to win the title. (As opposed to beating one of the worst champions who hadn't fought in 2 years.)
He defended the title a lot.
He didn't duck anyone.
All four times that he defended his title against a challenger from another country he fought in their native country. (Very few champions from the US do this.)
He didn't have any remotely close calls.
What could he have done to make this better?

John L- I'm sorry if you think I have made too many posts. I am really just replying to other people's comments. I haven't made as many posts on this thread as some people.