Jimmy Ellis vrs Jerry Quarry(April.27.1968)

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 04 May 2008, 19:23

None of them--if Liston was training and fighting on the level.

Ellis wouldn't have bothered to get in the ring with Liston.

Patterson ???????????????????

Quarry?

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 04 May 2008, 19:35

It would have been interesting to have seen him in the mix.

Do you think the point that was mentioned above about his injuries being a good case as to why he stayed active against the opponents that he faced ?

You ever get to meet Liston in your travels ?

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 04 May 2008, 19:42

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc_268cv1pI
Sonny Liston vs Willi Besmanoff

Liston don't look all that great.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 04 May 2008, 19:47

My guess is that Liston was ordered to let the fight last a certain distance.

He did nothing for a number of rounds.

As soon as he opened up and caught Besmanoff in a corner--the fight was over.

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 04 May 2008, 19:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKdaiTSvzVU
Joe Frazier vs Bob Foster

Frazier was a big bad machine

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 04 May 2008, 19:51

granberry wrote:My guess is that Liston was ordered to let the fight last a certain distance.

He did nothing for a number of rounds.

As soon as he opened up and caught Besmanoff in a corner--the fight was over.

I ask Liston if he was taking it easy on Besmanoff, he said "Hell no"

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 04 May 2008, 19:53

Besemoff always strikes me as being an awkward opponent to most guys anyhow.

Who do you see beating Liston when he was at his best...
Louis ?

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 04 May 2008, 20:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgrwGNLTUH4
Sonny List vs Leotis Martin

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 04 May 2008, 20:20

Robinson wrote:Besemoff always strikes me as being an awkward opponent to most guys anyhow.

Who do you see beating Liston when he was at his best...
Louis ?

If you are asking me.

Joe louis

J.J Walcott

Rocky Marciano

Muhammad Ali..and I don't like Ali

Larry Holmes

Mike Tyson..maybe

Jack Dempsey

Just a few that come to mind.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 04 May 2008, 20:26

Walcott is an optimistic choice.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 04 May 2008, 20:28

JJ Walcott vs Liston would be an interesting match all the same.

Id pick Liston in this one however. Damned it'd be fun to watch though.

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 04 May 2008, 20:33

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Walcott is an optimistic choice.

Walcott was a very cagey fighter, who would sucker you to make mistakes and then make you pay, Liston was to slow for J.J...imho.

yancey · Post by **yancey** » 04 May 2008, 20:49

kikibalt wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Walcott is an optimistic choice.
Walcott was a very cagey fighter, who would sucker you to make mistakes and then make you pay, Liston was to slow for J.J...imho.

I think you guys are overrating Walcott.

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 04 May 2008, 20:52

yancey wrote:
kikibalt wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Walcott is an optimistic choice.
Walcott was a very cagey fighter, who would sucker you to make mistakes and then make you pay, Liston was to slow for J.J...imho.
I think you guys are overrating Walcott.

Not so.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 04 May 2008, 20:55

I have not seen as much of Walcott as I would like to see of his bouts.

He seems to have a good knack at drawing guys in and then letting them eat a good counter.

I still however that Liston has it to beat Walcott, either by a tight decision or a late TKO.

Some one make it happen.

kikibalt · Post by **kikibalt** » 04 May 2008, 21:05

Robinson wrote:I have not seen as much of Walcott as I would like to see of his bouts.

He seems to have a good knack at drawing guys in and then letting them eat a good counter.

I still however that Liston has it to beat Walcott, either by a tight decision or a late TKO.

Some one make it happen.

Walcott was not the greatest for sure, its just that his style would have been imo bad for Liston, Liston was good when guys would stay in front of him and you could be sure that J.J would not do that.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 04 May 2008, 22:57

Liston had a sluggish night against Besmanoff.

Liston got his leverage from mixing body punches in with his head punches.

Notice once he started that here against Besmanoff the fight ended.

Have to give Besmanoff credit for a great chin.

Walcott was one of the better punchers in the history of the heavyweight title.

Ask Ezzard Charles, Louis, Marciano.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 04 May 2008, 23:01

Walcott had the style to give Liston problems, but not the punch resistance. Walcott was a game fighter who didn't lack heart, but he was somewhat chinny, & Liston's reach alone means he'll land at some point. Walcott could not stay away long enough, IMO. He certainly lost to lesser fighters than Liston. I'd back The Night Train to get the KO.

I will say Walcott's effort against a prime Marciano when he was a number of years past his best (in spite of what the Marciano fans will contend) was one of the best career performances from the 1951-52 Heavyweight titleist.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 04 May 2008, 23:06

The first Marciano-Walcott fight was one of the great fights in the history of the heavyweight title.

Walcott stood toe to toe with Marciano for 13 rounds.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 05 May 2008, 03:03

I dont have the full Walcott-Marciano fight, but the version I have is well watched.

Id love to see more of JJW, he has such a fun style. Alot of classy type boxers seem fond of mimicking alot of the shuffle and jazz to JJW style.

Ray Leonard comes to mind.

yancey · Post by **yancey** » 05 May 2008, 10:36

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Walcott had the style to give Liston problems, but not the punch resistance. Walcott was a game fighter who didn't lack heart, but he was somewhat chinny, & Liston's reach alone means he'll land at some point. Walcott could not stay away long enough, IMO. He certainly lost to lesser fighters than Liston. I'd back The Night Train to get the KO.

I will say Walcott's effort against a prime Marciano when he was a number of years past his best (in spite of what the Marciano fans will contend) was one of the best career performances from the 1951-52 Heavyweight titleist.

Liston would have most likely knocked out Walcott, imo.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 05 May 2008, 11:21

Both fighters, Liston and Jersey Joe never had the fights in their young days. Both fighters made their marks when they were in their 30s and probably close to their 40s.

yancey · Post by **yancey** » 05 May 2008, 13:04

elmersalsa wrote:Both fighters, Liston and Jersey Joe never had the fights in their young days. Both fighters made their marks when they were in their 30s and probably close to their 40s.

Yes, and both lost in first round knockouts that were controversial, while trying to regain their titles.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 05 May 2008, 13:26

And, ironically, Jersey Joe was the referee for Sonny's first round loss to Ali.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 05 May 2008, 14:56

yancey wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:Both fighters, Liston and Jersey Joe never had the fights in their young days. Both fighters made their marks when they were in their 30s and probably close to their 40s.
Yes, and both lost in first round knockouts that were controversial, while trying to regain their titles.

Both are good points.

Except I don't think either was trying very hard to regain their titles.

The fixed one-round losses are the least significant points of their careers.

I remember the program where two former Ali employees, Pacheco and Dundee, tried to present that Ali-Liston fake first round "KO" as legitimate and Don Dunphy, Archie Moore and Georgie Benton all said it was an obvious fake.

In frustration an upset Angelo Dundee said, "Aw, forget it.

Don Dunphy answered without hesitation,

"I'm trying to forget it."
.