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Posted: 14 May 2008, 08:00
by big lennox
I think it is very easy to find a negative link in anything. Afterall, no boxer is perfect, and therefore no one style is perfect. The Ingles gym is part of British folklaw, and justifiably so.I could'nt even begin to list the number of champions, amateur and proffessional that have come through that gym, and still do.They have even produced some very good trainers in their own right, so their legacy is also continued in that veign as well.
Just as impressive is the development of people down there.I have literally seen kids brought down by social workers/carers who have said, Brendan, we can't do anything with this kid'. Two years later that kid is enitely differnt, beause they have been given a structure, support and access to people who care about their well being.Moreover, the gym from top to bottom; world champion to someone's first week there: operates as a level playing field.Everyone gets to box with one another, and be taught the same skills.For someone like myself, who absolutely loves boxing, but could'nt box a lick (miles to tense in the ring) being able to share a ring with the Nelson's, Rhodes, Pickerings and Witter's of the world is a very special thing. Also, Brendan taught me how to transfer the skills and sicipline I learnt there into my academic and proffesional life.He really did.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 08:04
by harrygreb
twenty six - if i have to salt my arguments with a little patronisation to gain a response then i will. i take your point about the gym giving lads direction to make something of themselves. perhaps the sarcy nag about the ING dynasty and its creative writing policy was a touch too much salt but...i have to say when i posted the thread i expected maybe half a dozen replies but it has now run to almost two whole pages of strong reasoned debate from all sides. i thank everyone who has contributed.
page two is packed with thoughtful insights from auto, stickandmove, ian and a really sussed point against my position from deserter.
i learned a good deal from everyone and although i continue to be a critic of the ING dynasty i accept its good work and welcome its continuation to help disaffected youths if not its stylistic boxing ethos. if only they'd stay away from the corner!!! but i suppose there are worse things to worry about.
cheers, its been a good thread
Posted: 14 May 2008, 08:16
by Deserter
harrygreb wrote:twenty six - if i have to salt my arguments with a little patronisation to gain a response then i will. i take your point about the gym giving lads direction to make something of themselves. perhaps the sarcy nag about the ING dynasty and its creative writing policy was a touch too much salt but...i have to say when i posted the thread i expected maybe half a dozen replies but it has now run to almost two whole pages of strong reasoned debate from all sides. i thank everyone who has contributed.
page two is packed with thoughtful insights from auto, stickandmove, ian and a really sussed point against my position from deserter.
i learned a good deal from everyone and although i continue to be a critic of the ING dynasty i accept its good work and welcome its continuation to help disaffected youths if not its stylistic boxing ethos. if only they'd stay away from the corner!!! but i suppose there are worse things to worry about.
cheers, its been a good thread
Good attitude fella. Glad to see Boxrec earning back its crown as the best place for reasoned boxing debate that doesn't descend into spats and name-calling
Posted: 14 May 2008, 08:16
by Twinkle Toes
The only thing I think is justifiable to criticise with Ingle is his corner work.
I've listened to it in the past and it is bad - "hit him on the head" is advice, but not good avice.
I'm surprsied none of you have mentioned his corner work.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 08:27
by dondada
Deserter wrote:harrygreb wrote:twenty six - if i have to salt my arguments with a little patronisation to gain a response then i will. i take your point about the gym giving lads direction to make something of themselves. perhaps the sarcy nag about the ING dynasty and its creative writing policy was a touch too much salt but...i have to say when i posted the thread i expected maybe half a dozen replies but it has now run to almost two whole pages of strong reasoned debate from all sides. i thank everyone who has contributed.
page two is packed with thoughtful insights from auto, stickandmove, ian and a really sussed point against my position from deserter.
i learned a good deal from everyone and although i continue to be a critic of the ING dynasty i accept its good work and welcome its continuation to help disaffected youths if not its stylistic boxing ethos. if only they'd stay away from the corner!!! but i suppose there are worse things to worry about.
cheers, its been a good thread
Good attitude fella. Glad to see Boxrec earning back its crown as the best place for reasoned boxing debate that doesn't descend into spats and name-calling
Hear, hear!
Posted: 14 May 2008, 08:30
by harrygreb
the "corner work" has been mentioned
Posted: 14 May 2008, 08:35
by stujones
harrygreb wrote: the "corner work" has been mentioned
Oh yes, Ndou vs Witter was pure comedy.
Where is Ojay Abrahams when you need him (joke - to those close to the Ingles).
Posted: 14 May 2008, 08:53
by twenty six
Harry G,
Glad to see that each and every part of a line of thinking is considered.
I walk around in the rose tinted glasses sometimes when it comes to boxing / Sheffield !
Posted: 14 May 2008, 09:08
by Gray-Fox
From what I've heard (and trust me, it's a good source) the gym is full of fighters who walk around with over-aggrandized views of themselves, chips on their shoulder about the other fighters in the sport, and hatred among their own camp.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 09:25
by big lennox
Not sure where you got your sources from.The gym has a cracking atmoshpere, and the boxers there have always been a friendly bunch.
Re: Graham getting knocked. He was winning the fight hands down with the Ingle style, and on the verge of stopping Jackson, but got over eager and thus caught himself.That wasn't to do with Ingle style per se.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 09:25
by dondada
Gray-Fox wrote:From what I've heard (and trust me, it's a good source) the gym is full of fighters who walk around with over-aggrandized views of themselves, chips on their shoulder about the other fighters in the sport, and hatred among their own camp.
Aye, there is sometimes a bit of an Alex Ferguson 'siege mentality' psychology built up...although this is the first I've heard of any civil war type grief.
But take 'Golden Boy' Nadeem Siddique, for example. Comes across as arrogant as you like - flash, chips on both shoulders, etc.
He's actually a nice lad and more than prepared to take the mick out of himself (thankfully).
Posted: 14 May 2008, 09:27
by DavidPayne
Is the Naz chinning Buster Keeton story true?
Posted: 14 May 2008, 09:39
by stujones
Terry D wrote:I watched a training session there once and, although not a big fan of the style of boxer produced, they had the gym packed with local kids. It was good to see, the parents were also getting involved and it was nice to see a parent in a boxing gym not threatening to sue everyone because little Johnny got a smack on the nose.
Not keen on the idea of body sparring only, I think it lowers your guard personally. Not sure about some of the footwork worked on. It is all a question of preference. That aside they were obviously putting something back into the community.
Dominic has always been a good guy whenever I've spoken to him in the gym or at shows. After a few Junior Witter fights I've heard Brendan telling people they have just seen top class boxing, not sure if they would need to be told they had if they had! He seems a nice enough bloke though.
Herol Graham is seen as the best exponent of their style but you have to bear in mind that in his biggest bout Herol stood completely still with his hands down in front of the biggest hitter in the world. He then got clocked and KO'd. I think defensively it is more awkward than truly effective, when they get hit they tend to get hit big and lose balance a lot, Naz did this a lot. His first ever touchdown, to my knowledge, was to a pair of identical right ands thrown in succession.
Whatever the pros and cons they have had longevity, you cannot really knock that.
Ps You bunch of knobs
Agree, now as most know I was a huge admirer of Spencer Oliver's ability.... and watching him on the bag on Sky's ringside programme look at the trainers was a pure joy.... Brendan was really going to town on how bad Spencer's bag work (especially concerning his footwork) was. I thought that was bizarre.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 10:49
by d
Autobarn wrote:Definitely, he's a good social force. Also, he was interested in bringing a bit of showbiz into boxing, which I think helped Naz become such a big commodity.
Can't argue with their success - Bomber Graham running McCallum close, Johnny Nelson's run as WBO cruiser champion, Hamed winning a lot of big fights, Witter belatedly becoming WBC champ which he retained twice - and all the domestic level champs. A lot of guys going on to achieve considerable success in their lives.
It's just a shame to see the style get shown up a bit at world level. Of all the fighters Naz could have made his style work at the absolute highest level but he went power crazy once he started defending his world title.
Anyway, the internet is a perfect place to shit on ppl while they are down. Once they have an upswing in fortunes they'll be getting praise again.
Great post.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 11:23
by twenty six
Grey Fox,
You are truly misinformed about the so called "hatred among their own camp".
As for egos etc, I've been priveleged to visit many Gyms in the UK and abroad and I've yet to see any Gym that isn't full of boxers with views on their potential opponents in other Gyms, and a feeling of invincibility !
Do yourself a favour and pay a visit, instead of listening to crap.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 12:44
by SticknMove
Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:I know this has nowt to do with Harry's points but just to expand on twenty six's views...Brendan Ingle has done an amazing job in setting disaffected youth on a decent path. Some might have slipped through the net but he's helped hundreds.
Anyone who has spent any time with Brendan knows he's the unofficial talking champ of Britain but as he knows I'm a teacher he talks to me more about education than boxing. His enthusiasm and fire absolutely drains me.
As I said, nowt to do with boxing but just wanted to say this.
Spot on Ian.
Brendan Ingle has been an absolutely fantastic servant to the community.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 12:59
by beagleboy
For the snipers such as Harry Greb :
Witter and Nelson won nothing as amateurs
You haven't given Brendan Ingle any credit for turning them into world champions.
Genuine question.
Has such a feat ever been achieved by any other British trainer ?
Posted: 14 May 2008, 14:40
by harrygreb
i'm not on here to give brendan credit, sir. i'm here to slate him!
please read the title of the thread.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 15:00
by black panther
d wrote:Autobarn wrote:Definitely, he's a good social force. Also, he was interested in bringing a bit of showbiz into boxing, which I think helped Naz become such a big commodity.
Can't argue with their success - Bomber Graham running McCallum close, Johnny Nelson's run as WBO cruiser champion, Hamed winning a lot of big fights, Witter belatedly becoming WBC champ which he retained twice - and all the domestic level champs. A lot of guys going on to achieve considerable success in their lives.
It's just a shame to see the style get shown up a bit at world level. Of all the fighters Naz could have made his style work at the absolute highest level but he went power crazy once he started defending his world title.
Anyway, the internet is a perfect place to shit on ppl while they are down. Once they have an upswing in fortunes they'll be getting praise again.
The thing is with the success you've just mentioned I dont think you can knock the style - and I agree Naz underachieved IMO - after a certain point in his career he stopped using the jab and throwing combinations and instead was content to load up on single punches - one punch at a time. You can't do that at world level. Witter did the same - neglecting the jab and throwing one punch at time whilst doing that "Mwaa WAATAA - Feel my snake fist" thing with his lead hand. I believe Nelson was so successful despite stinking the place out on odd occassion is that he always used the jab - its a fight winner IMO.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 17:12
by beagleboy
harrygreb wrote:i'm not on here to give brendan credit, sir. i'm here to slate him!
please read the title of the thread.
You appear to be a well balanced individual - a chip on each shoulder.
It was a genuine question to anybody. 2 boxers, won nothing as amateurs, guided to world titles. Any other British trainer?
Posted: 14 May 2008, 17:14
by Gray-Fox
beagleboy wrote:For the snipers such as Harry Greb :
Witter and Nelson won nothing as amateurs
You haven't given Brendan Ingle any credit for turning them into world champions.
Genuine question.
Has such a feat ever been achieved by any other British trainer ?
Witter won a Junior ABA title. That is something.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 17:40
by harrygreb
well, mr beagle, you are a bit of a plonker if you expect me, having come up with a thread slating the ING dynasty, to then undermine my whole position by telling everyone what a wonderful trainer i think he is.
mr beagle, go and have a smoke and think about that concept.
Posted: 14 May 2008, 18:28
by JC
Arbachakov wrote:Graham was the most versatile and technically capable of the fighters the Ingles have had; he actually had excellent textbook footwork and could punch properly in combination.His Jab was nothing special, but still far better than any other Ingle fighter.
Yet his traits that would come to define the Ingle style were what held him back and cost him when he came up against truly well-schooled, talented fighters that were in their prime like kalambay and McCallum.
hands dangling by his sides, pulling straight back from punches too often, etc.
These were weaknesses that should have been ironed out, yet the Ingles seemed to take them and build from them for their post-Graham fighters, while the excellent footwork and more textbook parts of Herol's style were seemingly abandoned.
I personally don't think it's a truly viable style for efficient world-level boxing.It makes many things harder than they need be and only truly gifted athletes will be able to do much with it.
I've never watched one of their fighters, without thinking he would no doubt be improved considerably by fighting in a more classical manner.
Hamed, with his great athleticism, confidence and power, could have been an awesome boxer-puncher had he been taught by someone like George Francis or any of the technically savvy trainers like Benton,Amilcar Brusa, Beristain, Futch...
Very insightful post agree 100%
Posted: 14 May 2008, 20:23
by Maelstrom
I give up on this post.
Harrygreb, I was trying to be polite, but then you go on to partronise people who just don't happen to agree with you.
You start with some post written in a style that I can only assume you think was clever, including the tenous link in the first line. It wasn't clever, it just smacked of someone trying to impress.
Then you denigrate everyone who brings up a valid point against you. I am ABSURD am I for stating that the Ingles have helped people learn to read? You need to find out the FACTS before you start slinging mud.
Then when people start pulling your argument apart you claim victory by saying what a great thread you started.
You continue to get more exposed and then slate someone at the possibility you should change your position, when in fact that should be the honourable thing to do now you are in the possession of more facts.
Get over yourself and get over this hatred of this Ingles.
Ironically, I am actually not their greatest fans, but I can see beyond my personal opinions. If you contribute even 10% to society that either John, Dominic or Brendan has then I will AMAZED.
They have taken hundreds, yes hundreds, of kids from nothing and given then discipline, self-respect and targets. They have helped a hell a lot of fighters completely over achieve.
As I said earlier. That has to be what training is about.
Posted: 15 May 2008, 06:38
by beagleboy
Gray-Fox wrote:beagleboy wrote:For the snipers such as Harry Greb :
Witter and Nelson won nothing as amateurs
You haven't given Brendan Ingle any credit for turning them into world champions.
Genuine question.
Has such a feat ever been achieved by any other British trainer ?
Witter won a Junior ABA title. That is something.
Gray-Fox
I agree a Junior ABA title is something . I had been told Witter won nothing as an amateur . I apologise if I'm incorrect . Can anyone confirm this.
Harrygreb, why so bitter and twisted ? Ingle won an award from Ring magazine for being one of the world's best trainers . The fact that you won't give him credit for anything, suggests you have some vendetta .