BoxRec

That's pretty much how I have always seen it. (except that I don't remember many experts picking David Bey to beat Holmes, nor do I think Holmes deserved the decision against Carl Williams.)
Holmes did beat many of the top guys while he was in his prime. He didn't fight everyone, but it's not like the guys he didn't fight (Page,Dokes,Thomas, etc.) really distinguished themselves from Cooney, Weaver, Witherspoon etc.
He did fight some weaker opponents at the end of career. However, considering his entire title reign, he (as well as Louis) was certainly a "fighting champion".

raylawpc wrote: . . .
Jeffries looked ripped against Johnson

Jeffries looked like a mess physically against Johnson.

His face looked 20 years older than it did in his fighting days,

as anyone's face would who dissipated for 6 years and then just lost close to 100 pounds in a short amount of time.

His once massive legs were now tighter and strained looking.

One glance at the curley haired young guy in the lengthy 1901 training film before his fight with Ruhlin shows that the Jeffries who "fought" Johnson was a physical wreck in comparison.

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Cooney didn't have a very weak chin. If he did, he certainly wouldn't have lasted until the 13th round against Holmes. You have to have atleast a decent chin to do that. Not to mention that it was a competitive fight.

Cooney was stopped 3 times in his career: by Holmes, Spinks and Foreman. He certainly didn't have an iron chin, but to say he had a weak chin is a big exaggeration.

The guys that Holmes fought certainly had their weaknesses of the guys, but overall they were better. If you are going to rip Cooney, then you have to consider:

-Lou Nova was stopped 6 times.
-Tommy Farr was stopped 5 times and lost 30 fights. Should have been able to beat a washed up Jimmy Braddock easily but he couldn't.
-Tony Galento was stopped 6 times.
-Even Buddy Baer got stopped by the legendary Gunner Barlund.

It's not like Spinks ko's Cooney with one punch. Spinks hit him with multiple punches him with everything he had. Even at 175, Spinks was a much harder puncher than Billy Conn was. At a solid 208, he had decent power.

There is no way that Cooney would have been knocked out by Billy Conn like Pastor was.
That Louis was the only other heavyweight during the era that knocked out Pastor is yet one more indication of how bad the heavyweight division was at the time.

Great job there perusing boxrec, and completly dismissing the actual context of the fights with which you speak (even boxrec itself would tell you, that 2 of Nova's 6 stoppages were on cuts and the Galento KO loss was from a thumb to the eye, or that a majority of Farr's losses came when he was still a teenager)

I was just doing what you are doing with Cooney and other Holmes opponents.
Of course some of Farr's losses aren't that embarrassing. (However, some are legitimate). However, there is no more evidence of Cooney having a weak chin as Farr having one. There is more evidence that Cooney has a better chin than Pastor, and atleast as good of a chin as Nova and Galento.
Cooney had much more power than any of these guys.

Nova's cut losses aren't indications of a weak chin, however they are still losses where he couldn't go the distance.
Don't want to the loss to Galento fine? Fine. Nova only got stopped 5 times instead of 6. However, then you have to take away what is by far the best stoppage win of Galento's career.
Whcih doesn't leave Galento with much.

No way in the world would Cooney (or Smith or Witherspoon or Berbick, or Weaver or Shavers)have been knocked out by Billy Conn.

You have no way of knowing if Cooney had any more power than Galento or Nova. They all layed guys out. You are clutching at straws.

There is no more evidence of Cooney having a weak chin than Farr having one??? WHAT?? Farr NEVER got knocked out after he passed 19 years of age, until his ill-fated early 1950s comeback in his late 30s. He went the distance with Lou Nova, Max Baer (twice) and Joe Louis. Pastor went the distance v Thompson (twice), Franklin, Nova, and Joe Louis. Who did Cooney EVER go the distance with, or past 2 rounds with, who was a big Heavyweight puncher? Or even a fair one?

Weaver or Shavers could NEVER get stopped by Billy Conn? Oh, I forgot, the likes of Duane Bobick and Ron Stander were in a class above the Pittsburgh Kid.

Cooney had a paltry 31 fights. You think Cooney doesn't have a handful of KO losses if he continues fighting regularly post Holmes, vs the likes of Weaver, Berbick, Coatzee, Bruno, Tyson(???) If not you are living in dreamland.

And I actually don't deride Holmes for not fighting the likes of Coatzee and Page. The upper echelon early 80s HWs continually proved they were about equal to each other.

raylawpc wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Robinson wrote:Spinks would have made Jack Johnson seem small.

That makes no sense. Johnson could've never dropped down to 175, his skeletal frame combined with his overall muscle/body mass composition would've sent him to the hospital on an IV (or whatever they had back then)

Johnson was a big man, even at 220 vs Moran he displays a pretty good muscular physique. If Spinks had ever gone up to 220 he would've looked like a baloon (and he didn't look very good at 212 v Tyson to me)

Personally, Johnson's midsection against Moran and Willard reminds me of a stuffed sausage. I also thought he looked a tad fat against Jeffries - not much definition to his abs. I think his best weight was around 195 at the time he fought Burns. In old photos from that fight, he looked in great shape.

(Of course, appearance are deceiving. Jeffries looked ripped against Johnson, and look what happened.)

I think Johnson looked to be in great shape vs Jefferies . . .he never had Roy Jones abs at any point in his career.
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/Images/johnson_jeff.jpg

Pre-fight photo: http://www.blackathlete.com/Images/johnson415.jpg

I concur at 225 vs Willard he was soft in the mid-section (although compared to most of today's HWs he'd look like Holyfield) but please put Spinks at 225 and he looks absolutely ridiculous. To claim Spinks was bigger than Johnson is absurd.

He was in great shape against Jeffries. I just thought he looked in better shape against Burns at 195. I thought he looked bad for Moran and Willard.

Spinks wouldn't look good at 220 either. But that doesn't make him a light-heavyweight when he fought Cooney.

P.S., I posted some pics of Jeffries at his introduction for the Johnson fight at my original post. I'll post them again here:





A young Jeffries:

Jeffries looked like a different person from his fighting days when he "fought" Johnson.

His arms had shrunk, and his lower legs were shaped completely differently from years earlier when he was in his prime.

And his face looked much older, and grim--as would be expected for someone who dissipated for 6 years and then lost close to 100 pounds suddenly.
.

demspey fire said" You have no way of knowing if Cooney had any more power than Galento or Nova. They all layed guys out. You are clutching at straws.

There is no more evidence of Cooney having a weak chin than Farr having one??? WHAT?? Farr NEVER got knocked out after he passed 19 years of age, until his ill-fated early 1950s comeback in his late 30s. He went the distance with Lou Nova, Max Baer (twice) and Joe Louis. Pastor went the distance v Thompson (twice), Franklin, Nova, and Joe Louis. Who did Cooney EVER go the distance with, or past 2 rounds with, who was a big Heavyweight puncher? Or even a fair one?

Weaver or Shavers could NEVER get stopped by Billy Conn? Oh, I forgot, the likes of Duane Bobick and Ron Stander were in a class above the Pittsburgh Kid.

Cooney had a paltry 31 fights. You think Cooney doesn't have a handful of KO losses if he continues fighting regularly post Holmes, vs the likes of Weaver, Berbick, Coatzee, Bruno, Tyson(???) If not you are living in dreamland.

And I actually don't deride Holmes for not fighting the likes of Coatzee and Page. The upper echelon early 80s HWs continually proved they were about equal to each other.[/quote]

You still don't have much evidence that Cooney supporting the idea that Cooney had a weak chin. You brought up that he got knocked down by Holmes. He got up and lasted until the 13 round. He wasn't just fighting to hang on. He went toe to toe against a close to his prime Holmes.
Guess what, Larry Holmes was atleast a fair puncher. He hit a heck of a lot harder than Billy Conn.

You are seriously comparing Galento and Nova's power to Cooney? Watch them on film. Cooney wasn't a great fighter but he had a devastating lefthook. He didn't have great boxing skills but they were certainly a lot better than Galento's and better than many of Louis' opponents.

Watch Galento. He threw wild swinging arm punches that you could coming a mile away. Nova stopped less than half the opponments he fought in his career. Several ordinary fighters went the distance with him.

Pastor got knocked out by Billy Conn. That is absolutley embarrassing for a heavyweight. Conn couldn't even knockout lightheavyweights. No Ron Stander and Duane Bobick weren't remotely close to being better pound for pound fighters than Billy Conn. However, they sure as heck punched a lot harder. (i'm not sure why you brought them up anyway, neither fought Holmes)

The fact that Louis was the only other guy to knockout Pastor is yet another indication that the other heavyweights of the era weren't that good.

I do think that Cooney would have been stopped more if he had fought more. What I was pointing out before is that most of the fighters from Louis' era that you mentioned got knocked out multiple times. That is worth pointing out.

I just don't get this. These guys look horrible on film. They were not considered good back while they were fighting. Historically they have been considered weak. What is the fascination with the heavyweights of the 1940's?
Is this some sort of nostalgia for the past?
I'm not one who thinks that the fighters now are way better. Nor am I someone who thinks that the fighters from way back were way better. The heavyweight division has gone up and down in quality over the years.
There were good heavyweight eras before the 1940's. The Teens had a ton of talent. Virtually every decade before or since the 1940's had a better group of heavyweights, not including this one of course.

I will say that the competiton that Louis beat before he won the title in 1937 was better than what Holmes beat before he won the title.
I'm not saying that that the heavyweights that Holmes fought were great; they weren't. The worst weren't as good as the best that Louis fought. However, as a group they were certainly better than those that Louis defended the title against.

You learn something new every day.

Now I have learned from one of the authorities here that Tommy Farr had a weak chin.

LOL

I think Johnson at his best was around 190-200lbs. Over that he was a little heavy
I doubt while he was travelling that conditioning and focused training was a paramount
as it had been in his pre championship days.

Im pretty confident that Johnson early in his career no doubt weighed 175lb or so.

He weighted 185 against Langford. So who is to say before then he was not lighter ?

In any case by more modern standards the Galveston giant is not that big a man.

Jeffries looks like a strong and tough guy who liked to beat and brawl his generally
smaller foes.

His fight against Johnson should never be considered an indicator as to how he was
as a fighter. That long a lay off affects ANYONE.

Alp

Holmes will always get criticism from all quarters. I think the politics of the time is often over
looked. Who would not face a Frank and Marvis Frazier for that sort of money ??

Burns had better title challenges ??

Only reason he took the fight vs Johnson as we know was for the money.

Jewy Smith ?
James J walker (was it an exhibition ??)
Jim Flynn (many rate highly but at the time was he better than say a Frank or Frazier?_
Gunner Moir and Jack palmer....how great were they ?
Lets fight Bill Squires 3 times...
Jem Roche...

Louis has had his guys listed time and time again....Alp has made a case above on that period.
Dempsey had a great title reign...

In regards to the Williams fight...I had Holmes JUST winning. JUST.

I have never seen any film of Galento that made me think 'wow...what a great fighter'
Maybe a mean brawler. Tank Abbott of his era. His claim to fame was embarrasing a
casual Joe Louis. Who beat the crap out of him there after.

Hell Tex Cobb looks hundreds of times better than Tony galento

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqIEeHVGjqk
Galento vs M Baer

Robinson wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqIEeHVGjqk
Galento vs M Baer

Tell all about that fight, Robinson.

What stage was it of Galento's career?

What stage was it of Baer's career?

Enlighten us from your fund of knowledge.

Mr Gran

I have posted a video for all to display. There is a lot more boxing knowledge here than I
possess.

No doubt this was past Baer's best years we all know that.

In any case, would you be able to explain to me what I am watching ?

I am here to learn. Yes I have opinions but I am not absolute and set on them
I am here to have my opinions changed with the right information and guidance.

Can you explain to me about galento ?


Thank You

Kym

"...Cooney had at least as good a chin as Galento..." - Alp

That'll do me. Quote of the decade, maybe the century. I'm expecting less & less of you with each passing day, Alp.

Galento was fatter than usual vs Baer and near the end of the line. I think he looks much better vs Louis, Very fast, lethal left hook he threw. Fought smartly out of the crouch as a shorter fighter. Alan Sugar who saw the likes of Frazier and Liston said Galento, as an old man on the heavy bag, hit the hardest of them all.

Who did Holmes knock down in the early rounds besides Cooney? I'm sorry, I'm a Larry Holmes fan, but he often made average-chinned foes look like Superman b/c the guy kept throwing his Sunday punches at them and they wern't going anywhere. Again, I asked you to show me when Cooney showed a durable chin. Going 13 with Holmes doesn't answer that question. Carl Williams went 15 with him, I guess he had a chin of iron


The 1940s were a much deeper period as you had many more fighters with a much tougher road to climb to get to the top. Watch footage of fights like Farr-Louis and Baer-Nova and the skill combined with the durability and pace puts HWs of the past 20 years to shame. You dismissing Pastor's entire 60 fight plus career b/c of one KO loss on a body shot to one of the greatest 175 lbers ever, is so beyond the pale it's a joke. I'm not surprised you know nothing of the likes of Turkey Thompson, who was ducked by several top HWs because of his punching power. I'm sure Cooney could've beaten Galento in the 100m dash, but in a 15 round fight, your experience, ability to take a punch, knowledge of body punching/feitning, and overall sheer toughness will prove the master in the ring. I'd bet the house Galento would take Cooney's early round assault and brutally stop 'Gentleman Gerry' sometime before the 10th. Cooney boxed b/c his father was a bastard and he was forced into it. Galento was just a mean SOB who liked to hurt people, along with under-rated speed/athleticism.

Cooney was never a great fighter in the ATG sense but he was a very real challenger and a danger to most fighters.
Sure he was manufactured and guided to a smart and lucrative title challenge...I guess like a
Michael Grant, Duane Bobick, Mac Foster and so on...

Yes the 1940s had a lot of crouchers. And some talented men.

Tony galento...I guess Im just some what ignorant////

Holmes had 20 4 rounds or less stoppages in his career. BUt he only fought bums...so I guess
that doesnt matter.

dempseyfire wrote:Galento was fatter than usual vs Baer and near the end of the line. I think he looks much better vs Louis, Very fast, lethal left hook he threw. Fought smartly out of the crouch as a shorter fighter. Alan Sugar who saw the likes of Frazier and Liston said Galento, as an old man on the heavy bag, hit the hardest of them all.

Who did Holmes knock down in the early rounds besides Cooney? I'm sorry, I'm a Larry Holmes fan, but he often made average-chinned foes look like Superman b/c the guy kept throwing his Sunday punches at them and they wern't going anywhere. Again, I asked you to show me when Cooney showed a durable chin. Going 13 with Holmes doesn't answer that question. Carl Williams went 15 with him, I guess he had a chin of iron


The 1940s were a much deeper period as you had many more fighters with a much tougher road to climb to get to the top. Watch footage of fights like Farr-Louis and Baer-Nova and the skill combined with the durability and pace puts HWs of the past 20 years to shame. You dismissing Pastor's entire 60 fight plus career b/c of one KO loss on a body shot to one of the greatest 175 lbers ever, is so beyond the pale it's a joke. I'm not surprised you know nothing of the likes of Turkey Thompson, who was ducked by several top HWs because of his punching power. I'm sure Cooney could've beaten Galento in the 100m dash, but in a 15 round fight, your experience, ability to take a punch, knowledge of body punching/feitning, and overall sheer toughness will prove the master in the ring. I'd bet the house Galento would take Cooney's early round assault and brutally stop 'Gentleman Gerry' sometime before the 10th. Cooney boxed b/c his father was a bastard and he was forced into it. Galento was just a mean SOB who liked to hurt people, along with under-rated speed/athleticism.

Yes he had a lot of fights, though Galento was only 30 when he fought Baer. It was only a year after he fought Louis. You can see by the film that he had horrible fundamentals. If you didn't know better you would think he was very early in his career instead of being a veteran. He was very easy to hit when he wasn't holding. He threw wild roundhouse punches that you could see coming a mile away.
Cooney was certainly rough around the edges but he was better fundamentally than Galento.
He was always fat and grossly out of shape. He was only 5'9 and had reach and height disadvantages. That he could be a top contender speaks volumes about the depth of the heavyweight division at the time.
If Galento was such "a mean SOB", why was he hanging on for dear life against Baer for most of the fight?
Cooney atleast proved that he had some guts against Holmes.
Galneto had better stamina? Again there is s not much but 1940's nostalgia to back this up. Galento went more than 10 rounds exactly 1 time in his entire career, the same as Cooney in his short career. He certainly didn't look like someone who was in shape in shape that would be strong in the late rounds. He also didn't look fresh after just 8 rounds against Baer.

I would bet that Cooney (that fought Holmes) would potshot Galento at will and stop him before 5 rounds.

So now we are saying that Larry Holmes can't punch? Well, no he was no Joe Louis in terms of power. However, he certainly could punch. He also an accurrate puncher who often stopped opponetns from an accumilation of blows.
10 of Holmes previous 11 challengers didn't go the distance, or even make it past the 11th round.
He had to have to have some power to do that. Most of the time, Holmes took his time and stopped opponents in the mid rounds. He did show against Marvis Frazier and Leon Spinks that he could stop opponents early.
Cooney made it to the 13th round. and he didn't do it by running or holding. He stood in front of Holmes and got hit a lot. If Cooney had a weak chin he wouldn't have lasted that long. It's that simple.
This is more proof that he had a decent chin than any fight of Galento's.

I would think that it would be pretty obvious that Holmes was on the downside of his career by the time he fought Carl Williams. An out of shape Holmes hardly hit Williams with anything the whole fight.

You are making way too much about the 2nd round knockdown in the Cooney-Holmes fight. By that logic, Joe Louis had a glass jaw because he got knocked down in the first round by Braddock, who certainly wasn't a hard puncher.

Btw, Pastor was knocked down twice by Conn before the body shot finished him off. That's absolutely embarrassing for a heavyweight.

Cooney clearly had declined as a fighter by the time he fought Spinks and Foreman. This really isn't great proof that he couldn't take a punch.
Cooney was no legend and he certainly had flaws. However, he and the others mentioned (Shavers,Witherspoon,Smith,Weaver, Berbick) were clearly better than almost all of Louis' challengers. Of course they had their limitations, but it's mind boggling to think that guys like Galento, Nova, Godoy, Pastor etc were better.

The heavyweight contenders of the 1940's weren't respected at all during the time that they fought. They often were laughed at. Historically, this haven't been thought of as a era of much depth. They look horrible on film.
Once again, I am going to ask, where is all of this fascination with the heavyweight contenders from the 1940's coming from?

Ambling Alp wrote:
. . . Braddock, who certainly wasn't a hard puncher. . .

Another all-time winner from a boxrec 'authority.'

LOL

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Galento was fatter than usual vs Baer and near the end of the line. I think he looks much better vs Louis, Very fast, lethal left hook he threw. Fought smartly out of the crouch as a shorter fighter. Alan Sugar who saw the likes of Frazier and Liston said Galento, as an old man on the heavy bag, hit the hardest of them all.

Who did Holmes knock down in the early rounds besides Cooney? I'm sorry, I'm a Larry Holmes fan, but he often made average-chinned foes look like Superman b/c the guy kept throwing his Sunday punches at them and they wern't going anywhere. Again, I asked you to show me when Cooney showed a durable chin. Going 13 with Holmes doesn't answer that question. Carl Williams went 15 with him, I guess he had a chin of iron


The 1940s were a much deeper period as you had many more fighters with a much tougher road to climb to get to the top. Watch footage of fights like Farr-Louis and Baer-Nova and the skill combined with the durability and pace puts HWs of the past 20 years to shame. You dismissing Pastor's entire 60 fight plus career b/c of one KO loss on a body shot to one of the greatest 175 lbers ever, is so beyond the pale it's a joke. I'm not surprised you know nothing of the likes of Turkey Thompson, who was ducked by several top HWs because of his punching power. I'm sure Cooney could've beaten Galento in the 100m dash, but in a 15 round fight, your experience, ability to take a punch, knowledge of body punching/feitning, and overall sheer toughness will prove the master in the ring. I'd bet the house Galento would take Cooney's early round assault and brutally stop 'Gentleman Gerry' sometime before the 10th. Cooney boxed b/c his father was a bastard and he was forced into it. Galento was just a mean SOB who liked to hurt people, along with under-rated speed/athleticism.

Yes he had a lot of fights, though Galento was only 30 when he fought Baer. It was only a year after he fought Louis. You can see by the film that he had horrible fundamentals. If you didn't know better you would think he was very early in his career instead of being a veteran. He was very easy to hit when he wasn't holding. He threw wild roundhouse punches that you could see coming a mile away.
Cooney was certainly rough around the edges but he was better fundamentally than Galento.
He was always fat and grossly out of shape. He was only 5'9 and had reach and height disadvantages. That he could be a top contender speaks volumes about the depth of the heavyweight division at the time.
If Galento was such "a mean SOB", why was he hanging on for dear life against Baer for most of the fight?
Cooney atleast proved that he had some guts against Holmes.
Galneto had better stamina? Again there is s not much but 1940's nostalgia to back this up. Galento went more than 10 rounds exactly 1 time in his entire career, the same as Cooney in his short career. He certainly didn't look like someone who was in shape in shape that would be strong in the late rounds. He also didn't look fresh after just 8 rounds against Baer.

I would bet that Cooney (that fought Holmes) would potshot Galento at will and stop him before 5 rounds.

So now we are saying that Larry Holmes can't punch? Well, no he was no Joe Louis in terms of power. However, he certainly could punch. He also an accurrate puncher who often stopped opponetns from an accumilation of blows.
10 of Holmes previous 11 challengers didn't go the distance, or even make it past the 11th round.
He had to have to have some power to do that. Most of the time, Holmes took his time and stopped opponents in the mid rounds. He did show against Marvis Frazier and Leon Spinks that he could stop opponents early.
Cooney made it to the 13th round. and he didn't do it by running or holding. He stood in front of Holmes and got hit a lot. If Cooney had a weak chin he wouldn't have lasted that long. It's that simple.
This is more proof that he had a decent chin than any fight of Galento's.

I would think that it would be pretty obvious that Holmes was on the downside of his career by the time he fought Carl Williams. An out of shape Holmes hardly hit Williams with anything the whole fight.

You are making way too much about the 2nd round knockdown in the Cooney-Holmes fight. By that logic, Joe Louis had a glass jaw because he got knocked down in the first round by Braddock, who certainly wasn't a hard puncher.

Btw, Pastor was knocked down twice by Conn before the body shot finished him off. That's absolutely embarrassing for a heavyweight.

Cooney clearly had declined as a fighter by the time he fought Spinks and Foreman. This really isn't great proof that he couldn't take a punch.
Cooney was no legend and he certainly had flaws. However, he and the others mentioned (Shavers,Witherspoon,Smith,Weaver, Berbick) were clearly better than almost all of Louis' challengers. Of course they had their limitations, but it's mind boggling to think that guys like Galento, Nova, Godoy, Pastor etc were better.

The heavyweight contenders of the 1940's weren't respected at all during the time that they fought. They often were laughed at. Historically, this haven't been thought of as a era of much depth. They look horrible on film.
Once again, I am going to ask, where is all of this fascination with the heavyweight contenders from the 1940's coming from?

You are simply making up facts to back up your tired argument.

Galento weighed in at a career high vs Baer, at 244. He'd been 224, 20 POUNDS LIGHTER, in his previous fight vs Nova (and he weighed in the 220s for the wide majority of his career) That fight did not represent Galento at his peak by any means.

I never said Holmes had no punch, but sorry, he was not a big puncher. If Spinks and Frazier are the only early KO victims of any real depth you can tally up, that argument is seriously lacking.

You say there's no proof Cooney couldn't take a punch, I'm asking about where's the proof he could? Pastor had twice the number of fights Cooney had and got stopped less, and went the distance many times with recognized hard punchers. There's my proof. Cooney has ZILCH.

Can you show me all the links to where all the sportwriters 'laughed' at the apparent bad quality of the 1940s HWs and how they wern't respected at all? Because I'd be able to show you numerous articles decrying the poor state of the HW division in the 1980s . . .I'd raise you 5 articles/reflections to any one you produce from the 40s.

One note about Cooney, George Foreman fought Cooney in 1990 (?) and even that older, passed his best version, made Foreman say later that Cooney was the hardest hitting man he ever fought.

I don't make up facts.
Galento was overweight? Well, he wasn't exactly toned in his other fights. He was only 5'9. If he was ever in shape he would have weighed 200 max. You yourself make a big deal about fighters being overweight, and I have agreed with you on that.
How do you explain Galento's pathetic fundamentals?
Was he hard to hit?
Were his punches wild and telegraphed?
Why was the "tough SOB" holding on for dear life for so much of the fight against Baer?
These things have little to do with Galento's shape.

If Galento fought in a later era you would be making fun of his condition and bad habit.

I didn't say Holmes was a big puncher. I said he was no Joe Louis. But he certainly could punch.
As in, he would stop people who had a glass jaw.
Why was Holmes able to stop 10 of his 11 previous opponents earlier than Cooney?
That is a strong indication that Cooney can take a punch. I'm sure you have seen the fight. Are you seriously going to say that Holmes didn't land one good punch from the 3rd through the 12th rounds?

Again, why the obssesion with the 2nd round knockdown against Holmes? He got caught with a good shot, got up and didn't get knocked down again until the 13 round.
What Galento fight shows more proof of a good chin than that?
btw, You haven't answered why you claim that Galento had more stamina?
If that means you have a glass jaw, than what about Joe Louis against Braddock?
Louis got knocked down in the first round. Braddock was never known as a hard puncher. He hadn't even had a fight in over two years.
Using your logic with Cooney against Holmes, then Louis had a glass jaw.
I don't think he did and doubt you do either.

I'm not sure why this came to be all about Cooney. I have been also talking about Shavers,Witherspoon,Smith,Berbick,and Weaver as well. As I have said before, these guys weren't legends but they were very good fighters and are a couple of levels better than Galento,Nova, Buddy Baer, Godoy etc.

Bob Pastor proved he had a good chin against hard punchers? Like who? I have a feeling you are going to name names that I have no respect for, because I have looked at his record.
Apparently these hard punchers can't even punch as hard as Billy Conn.

Yes there were certainly crticim of Holmes challengers. To a certain extent that is fair. Some of them weren't that good, and even the best ones weren't great fighters.
However, they do get some unfair crticism becasue they came along right after the best era ever in the heavyweight division. You have to be pretty damm good not to get crticism when you come along right after Ali, Frazier,Foreman,Norton etc.

I'm sorry that I don't have links to articles. It's not something I have have collect. I have read several books over the years that have been critical of Louis challengers. I have never read where his competition was strong. This includes biographies of Louis that are very positive toward Louis overall.

I'm sorry is this some sort of newsflash that most of Joe Louis' challengers weren't that good?
You really haven't heard people say anything like that before?

I have tried to answer your questions from your posts. I'm sorry if I missed any. There have been several of mine that you haven't answered.

Ambling Alp wrote:I don't make up facts.
Galento was overweight? Well, he wasn't exactly toned in his other fights. He was only 5'9. If he was ever in shape he would have weighed 200 max. You yourself make a big deal about fighters being overweight, and I have agreed with you on that.
How do you explain Galento's pathetic fundamentals?
Was he hard to hit?
Were his punches wild and telegraphed?
Why was the "tough SOB" holding on for dear life for so much of the fight against Baer?
These things have little to do with Galento's shape.

If Galento fought in a later era you would be making fun of his condition and bad habit.

I didn't say Holmes was a big puncher. I said he was no Joe Louis. But he certainly could punch.
As in, he would stop people who had a glass jaw.
Why was Holmes able to stop 10 of his 11 previous opponents earlier than Cooney?
That is a strong indication that Cooney can take a punch. I'm sure you have seen the fight. Are you seriously going to say that Holmes didn't land one good punch from the 3rd through the 12th rounds?

Again, why the obssesion with the 2nd round knockdown against Holmes? He got caught with a good shot, got up and didn't get knocked down again until the 13 round.
What Galento fight shows more proof of a good chin than that?
btw, You haven't answered why you claim that Galento had more stamina?
If that means you have a glass jaw, than what about Joe Louis against Braddock?
Louis got knocked down in the first round. Braddock was never known as a hard puncher. He hadn't even had a fight in over two years.
Using your logic with Cooney against Holmes, then Louis had a glass jaw.
I don't think he did and doubt you do either.

I'm not sure why this came to be all about Cooney. I have been also talking about Shavers,Witherspoon,Smith,Berbick,and Weaver as well. As I have said before, these guys weren't legends but they were very good fighters and are a couple of levels better than Galento,Nova, Buddy Baer, Godoy etc.

Bob Pastor proved he had a good chin against hard punchers? Like who? I have a feeling you are going to name names that I have no respect for, because I have looked at his record.
Apparently these hard punchers can't even punch as hard as Billy Conn.

Yes there were certainly crticim of Holmes challengers. To a certain extent that is fair. Some of them weren't that good, and even the best ones weren't great fighters.
However, they do get some unfair crticism becasue they came along right after the best era ever in the heavyweight division. You have to be pretty damm good not to get crticism when you come along right after Ali, Frazier,Foreman,Norton etc.

I'm sorry that I don't have links to articles. It's not something I have have collect. I have read several books over the years that have been critical of Louis challengers. I have never read where his competition was strong. This includes biographies of Louis that are very positive toward Louis overall.

I'm sorry is this some sort of newsflash that most of Joe Louis' challengers weren't that good?
You really haven't heard people say anything like that before?

I have tried to answer your questions from your posts. I'm sorry if I missed any. There have been several of mine that you haven't answered.

I listed Pastor's opponents several times . . .Nova, Franklin, Thompson, Louis . .all of those guys were very hard punchers. Styles make fights To sum up a 65 fight career with only two stoppage losses by saying 'he must have had a glass chin b/c he got stopped by a 175 lber' is just stupid (and I'm not calling you stupid fyi, I wish for this to be a cordial debate despite the heated tone). He went the distance several times with very had punchers . . and Pastor wasn't a big puncher himself to take his opponents out early before they could land anything. Cooney never went the distance vs any puncher. Period. Did you see the fights prior when Holmes stopped guys inside the distance? When in the fight were they stopped? Were they on their feet at the time of the stoppage? Did they ever even go down? Those questions to be answered. Holmes's record of TKO wins to an extent puts the blinds on in terms of his punching power. Not a feather-duster, but not real knockout power

Not all of Galento's punches are telegraphed, and his money punch the left hook was very quick. Yes, Galento was never svelte, but if you can't see that 20 lbs less than he was vs Baer wouldn't have made him asthetically better and better condition-wise, I don't know what to say.. Farr, Nova, Schmeling, Godoy all had excellent stamina and were always in fantastic shape. Galento was certainly an odd man out in terms of his physique, just like Jones was for Holmes.

Well I wish to keep this cordial as well and I will address your points even though you have often not shown me the same courtesy.

-Bob Pastor's hard hitting opponents:
-Lou Nova. Yes Pastor went the 10 round distance with him. So did more than half of Nova's opponents.
-Pastor did go 10 rounds against Louis before Louis won the title and was knocked out in 11 rounds the remtach. This is an indication of being hard to hit and/or a good chin.
-Went the distance with Turkey Thompson. Was knocked down 6 times. If it's a big deal for Cooney to get knocked down once, isn't it a big deal for Pastor to be knocked down that many times? He was lucky that the ref didn't stop the fight and he was the loser of a first round TKO.

You have to really consider the Conn fight. Being knocked down 3 times by a weak puncher (any by heavyweight standards Conn certainly was) is a red flag. If a guy was knocked down twice and then out by Chris Byrd you certainly would say that he had a questionable chin at best. You have to weigh all of the evidence and to me it seems that at best he had a questionable chin if not a glass jaw. If you disagree, fine.

Obviously Cooney didn't have a lot of long fights. He stopped almost everyone early on his way up.
He did last 13 rounds without holding or running against Larry Holmes. He got hit a lot in that fight.
He was stopped by Spinks and Foreman when he was fighting infrequently.
I don't think he had a iron chin or anything like that. There isn't enough evidence of that.
However, there isn't enough evidence that he had a glass jaw either. If he did, he wouldn't have lasted that long against Holmes. Even in the Spinks fight, he got hit with a lot of punches before he was stopped.

As for Holmes previous title defenses, I have seen almost all them, almost all of them live on TV. The Weaver fight wasn't broadcast live on TV and I have never seen all of it.
Holmes did score a knockdown in that fight.

Going from memory (I could be slightly off):
Holmes knocked Evangelista out.
He knocked Ocasio down 4 times before the referee stopped it.
I believe he knocked Shavers down before it was stopped but I can't remember for sure.
He knocked Zanon out.
He didn't knock Jones down before it was stopped.
I don't think he knocked LeDoux down, but had him hurt a few times.
He didn't knock Ali down, but clearly wasn't going all out.
He didn't knock Berbick down.
He knocked Spinks down atleast once.
He didn't knock Snipes down, but did hurt him before it was stopped.

Holmes was well ahead in these fights before they were stopped. He usually didn't land one big haymaker, but would gradually soften his opponents up round after round. By the middle rounds he usually stepped on the gas and would stop opponents with an accumilation of blows.

I don't see a knockdown as the end all be all. Sometimes you can have a guy hurt and the referee stops it before you can knock him down. Sometimes you can score a knockdown without really hurting a guy. A knockdown is worth mentioning, but it doesn't mean everything.

Cooney actually won a few rounds and made this a fight, though Holmes was ahead when it was stopped.
In a nutshell, here is my my main point about Cooney's chin in the Holmes fight: If Cooney had a great chin, he probably could have went the distance. However, if he had a glass jaw, Cooney should have been stopped way before the 13th round; he was taking a lot of punches. It took more punches for Holmes to stop Cooney than it did for him to stop almost all of his previous challengers.
For what it's worth, Holmes had a lot of respect for Cooney and said that one of Cooney's body punches was the hardest body shot he ever took.

As I have said before, Holmes challengers weren't great. He fought some weak challengers, (Frank,Zanon,LeDoux etc. ) some ok ones (Snipes,Ocasio,Bey,Williams etc.) and some pretty good ones besides Cooney-(Weaver, Smith,Berbick,Witherspoon,Shavers). Again, I don't know why are talking about Cooney so much when Holmes had 19 other defenses.
He also had to beat Ken Norton to win the title in the first plcce, which is a lot more impressive than beating Jim Braddock; not mention that Braddock was rusty and hadn't fought for more than 2 years.

Ambling Alp wrote:Well I wish to keep this cordial as well and I will address your points even though you have often not shown me the same courtesy.

-Bob Pastor's hard hitting opponents:
-Lou Nova. Yes Pastor went the 10 round distance with him. So did more than half of Nova's opponents.
-Pastor did go 10 rounds against Louis before Louis won the title and was knocked out in 11 rounds the remtach. This is an indication of being hard to hit and/or a good chin.
-Went the distance with Turkey Thompson. Was knocked down 6 times. If it's a big deal for Cooney to get knocked down once, isn't it a big deal for Pastor to be knocked down that many times? He was lucky that the ref didn't stop the fight and he was the loser of a first round TKO.

You have to really consider the Conn fight. Being knocked down 3 times by a weak puncher (any by heavyweight standards Conn certainly was) is a red flag. If a guy was knocked down twice and then out by Chris Byrd you certainly would say that he had a questionable chin at best. You have to weigh all of the evidence and to me it seems that at best he had a questionable chin if not a glass jaw. If you disagree, fine.

Obviously Cooney didn't have a lot of long fights. He stopped almost everyone early on his way up.
He did last 13 rounds without holding or running against Larry Holmes. He got hit a lot in that fight.
He was stopped by Spinks and Foreman when he was fighting infrequently.
I don't think he had a iron chin or anything like that. There isn't enough evidence of that.
However, there isn't enough evidence that he had a glass jaw either. If he did, he wouldn't have lasted that long against Holmes. Even in the Spinks fight, he got hit with a lot of punches before he was stopped.

As for Holmes previous title defenses, I have seen almost all them, almost all of them live on TV. The Weaver fight wasn't broadcast live on TV and I have never seen all of it.
Holmes did score a knockdown in that fight.

Going from memory (I could be slightly off):
Holmes knocked Evangelista out.
He knocked Ocasio down 4 times before the referee stopped it.
I believe he knocked Shavers down before it was stopped but I can't remember for sure.
He knocked Zanon out.
He didn't knock Jones down before it was stopped.
I don't think he knocked LeDoux down, but had him hurt a few times.
He didn't knock Ali down, but clearly wasn't going all out.
He didn't knock Berbick down.
He knocked Spinks down atleast once.
He didn't knock Snipes down, but did hurt him before it was stopped.

Holmes was well ahead in these fights before they were stopped. He usually didn't land one big haymaker, but would gradually soften his opponents up round after round. By the middle rounds he usually stepped on the gas and would stop opponents with an accumilation of blows.

I don't see a knockdown as the end all be all. Sometimes you can have a guy hurt and the referee stops it before you can knock him down. Sometimes you can score a knockdown without really hurting a guy. A knockdown is worth mentioning, but it doesn't mean everything.

Cooney actually won a few rounds and made this a fight, though Holmes was ahead when it was stopped.
In a nutshell, here is my my main point about Cooney's chin in the Holmes fight: If Cooney had a great chin, he probably could have went the distance. However, if he had a glass jaw, Cooney should have been stopped way before the 13th round; he was taking a lot of punches. It took more punches for Holmes to stop Cooney than it did for him to stop almost all of his previous challengers.
For what it's worth, Holmes had a lot of respect for Cooney and said that one of Cooney's body punches was the hardest body shot he ever took.

As I have said before, Holmes challengers weren't great. He fought some weak challengers, (Frank,Zanon,LeDoux etc. ) some ok ones (Snipes,Ocasio,Bey,Williams etc.) and some pretty good ones besides Cooney-(Weaver, Smith,Berbick,Witherspoon,Shavers). Again, I don't know why are talking about Cooney so much when Holmes had 19 other defenses.
He also had to beat Ken Norton to win the title in the first plcce, which is a lot more impressive than beating Jim Braddock; not mention that Braddock was rusty and hadn't fought for more than 2 years.

What questions haven't I answered??

Cooney got knocked out by and put down by Holmes, Spinks (not a big HW puncher either) and Foreman. The two other hard punchers he faced, an ancient Lyle and Norton, never landed any leather on Cooney before he knocked them out in the 1st. Your SOLE basis for saying Cooney didn't have a weak chin is going over 12 rounds with Holmes. Yes, Holmes, like you said, wore down guys with an accumulation, BECAUSE, he didn't have the power to take guys out early. The only ones of any note he did were Frazier and Spinks, who never showed good chins, and Spinks was stopped on his feet.

I'm talking about Cooney, b/c we're talking about early 1980s HWs and Holmes's opponents. I'm not arguing Holmes doesn't beat Galento or Pastor. Holmes was a great champion.

A low KO percentage doesn't mean a guy can't punch. Was Emile Griffith now a 'weak puncher'?? Conn wasn't Bob Foster but he could crack when he sat down on his punches. And I still don't see how a KO from a body shot points to a weak chin . ..how do you know the earlier KDs wern't also from body punches? Have you seen Pastor-Louis? Louis cracked some good shots in and Pastor took them well. He was the only Louis opponent along with Farr and Godoy, to last the distance with the Brown Bomber from 1936-1946, a ten year period.

What questions haven't you answered? Well for starters :
1.Why is Cooney being knocked down in the 2nd round against Holmes such a big deal given that he lasted until the 13th before being knocked down again?

2. If Cooney getting knocked down by Holmes is such a big deal then why then isn't Pastor being knocked down 6 times by Turkey Thompson mean he has a glass jaw?
Why isn't Joe Louis getting knocked by Braddock mean he hads a glass jaw?

3. Pastor got stopped by Billy Conn. Body shots punch to the chin whatever. Almost every lightheavyweight could take it but Pastor couldn't. Why isn't that a big deal?

4. You say that Galento had good stamina? Where is the proof? He only went more than 10 rounds once.
5. You say Galento didn't look good against Baer because he was more overweight than usual. How does that explain his poor fundamentals?
6.If Galento was such a "tough SOB" why was he holding on for dear life for so much of the Baer fight?
7.Why do you often rip grossly overweight fighters from the 1980's to today but you won't rip Galento for the same thing?

8. Have you not heard much criticism of Louis' challengers before?
You act as if I am coming out of leftfield with this.

I have explained my feeling on Cooney's chin over and over. There isn't enough evidence to show he had a glass jaw. Like most fighters, he didn't have a glass jaw or an iron chin. In the Holmes fight, (which was by far the most telling fight of his career) he showed that to be the case. If he had would have went down right away against Spinks, you would have some a case.If Cooney he probably would have been knocked down/hurt a few times even by the weak competition that he fought before Holmes you would have a case. If he would have only lasted a few rounds against Holmes, you would have a case.
None of these things happened.

9. What is your fascination with Cooney? I have mentioned Smith,Witherspoon, Shavers,Berbick and Weaver several times and you have hardly even mentioned them.

Ambling Alp wrote:What questions haven't you answered? Well for starters :
1.Why is Cooney being knocked down in the 2nd round against Holmes such a big deal given that he lasted until the 13th before being knocked down again?

2. If Cooney getting knocked down by Holmes is such a big deal then why then isn't Pastor being knocked down 6 times by Turkey Thompson mean he has a glass jaw?
Why isn't Joe Louis getting knocked by Braddock mean he hads a glass jaw?

3. Pastor got stopped by Billy Conn. Body shots punch to the chin whatever. Almost every lightheavyweight could take it but Pastor couldn't. Why isn't that a big deal?

4. You say that Galento had good stamina? Where is the proof? He only went more than 10 rounds once.
5. You say Galento didn't look good against Baer because he was more overweight than usual. How does that explain his poor fundamentals?
6.If Galento was such a "tough SOB" why was he holding on for dear life for so much of the Baer fight?
7.Why do you often rip grossly overweight fighters from the 1980's to today but you won't rip Galento for the same thing?

8. Have you not heard much criticism of Louis' challengers before?
You act as if I am coming out of leftfield with this.

I have explained my feeling on Cooney's chin over and over. There isn't enough evidence to show he had a glass jaw. Like most fighters, he didn't have a glass jaw or an iron chin. In the Holmes fight, (which was by far the most telling fight of his career) he showed that to be the case. If he had would have went down right away against Spinks, you would have some a case.If Cooney he probably would have been knocked down/hurt a few times even by the weak competition that he fought before Holmes you would have a case. If he would have only lasted a few rounds against Holmes, you would have a case.
None of these things happened.

9. What is your fascination with Cooney? I have mentioned Smith,Witherspoon, Shavers,Berbick and Weaver several times and you have hardly even mentioned them.

1) I did answer that several times, re Holmes lack of punching power in the early rounds vs almost everybody
2) Maybe because Pastor and Louis actually WENT THE DISTANCE/WENT LOGNER THAN 2 ROUNDS with several knockout hitters. The big difference between Thompson-Pastor and Holmes-Cooney, 1, Thompson was a one punch KO artist, 2, Pastor actually went the distance. Pretty BIG difference there.
3) Again, how does one bad night bludgeon a 65 fight career?
4) I said the HWS of Louis's era had great stamina, not Galento. As stated previously, Galento and his condition was an aberration, not the norm it became during the hugathons between Page/Witherspoon/Tubbs in the 1980s
5) He was grossly out of shape (again, 20 lbs more than he was for the wide majority of his career) and visibly fatigued by the 5th round. Yes, poor condition and fatigue will cause a fighter to look sloppy.
6) He held on several times vs a hard puncher, why do you say he held on throughout the whole fight when Youtube showed HLs of 3 rounds?
7) See #4. Why in turn do you judge a whole fighters' career on a 5 minute Youtube clip of a fight in which the fighter was 20 lbs over what he usually weighed?
8) Any group of fighters receive critiques. The 'Bum of the Month' club was pegged in response to how dominant Louis was, not how poor his challengers were. Many scribes lauded the abilities of Nova, Baer, Latsky, Mann, Farr etc. Usually ESPN specials and the like will take the 'Bum of the Month' tagline completly out of context and generalize the era to fit their version of history, without knowing anything about it.