BoxRec

elmersalsa wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:First off, people talk about Duran-Leonard like Duran made it completly one-sided. Even stading and trading, Leonard made it a VERY close fight, and I would honestly be open to any claims that they scored it a draw or even a 1 point win for Leonard. Ray showed heart and guts in a GREAT fight. Some people just don't like Leonard and that's fine but don't re-write history.

As to the criticisms here, I agree Leonard dicked Hagler around in the early 80s regarding their purposed fight, it was very classless. For various reasons the fight didn't come off for several years when Hagler was past his best. But, the very fact that Leonard coming back from such a long layoff was able to win (and everytime I've watched the fight I watch it wanting to score it for Hagler but I just cannot) is still a very significant achievment. Added to his 1978-1982 accolades, and you have an all-time great fighter, period.

Duran vs Leonard I was not a close fight like the media implied...Watch how many punches Sugar Ray missed the entire fight. He made the fight "look close" because of his CLUTCHING AND GRABBING TACTICTS.


slug it out with Duran, my ass.

It makes me laugh when people say that Sugar Ray Leonard "slugged it" out with the great Roberto Duran.

The ONLY guys that comes in my mind THAT REALLY SLUG IT OUT WITH ROBERTO DURAN were Marvin Hagler, Hector Thompson, Iran Barkley and Esteban DeJesus (second fight)...Very few slug it out with Duran IN HIS PRIME, or see them win against him....The ones that slug it out with him and win were when Roberto was way past his prime.

I've watched the fight with my own eyes several times. Leonard got into many toe to toe exchanges with Duran and won a few. To imply Leonard ran or that the fight wasn't close is laughable. The fight is there for all to see. It amazes me some people's bias can be so great they actually see an alternate reality.

People do this because believe it or not their exists alot of 'fans'
who take what they read as gospel and dont actually sit down and
watch a fight.

I often ask myself what fight are they watching....but then again
it takes all sorts.

Knuckles

He still took those fights. His opponents thought that they would beat SRL.
Many in the media felt that he would lose. He was still facing very effective
opponents.

I think the greatest miracle of all was when Norris beat up Leonard. It should be a credit to Terry that he would even take a fight with the great leonard, let humble and retire him.

There were no "name" fighters on his records to which anyone could say he deserved a chance. Nobody gave him a chance.

Because Leonard beat all the name fighters, Norris was automatically given no chance. The only was Leonard fans can explain this away is to tell everyone that he suddenly became "old". But we knowlwdgable fans know they're just speaking out of envy and bitterness.

And Norris didn't have to settle for a split decision the way Leonard had.

Terry showed no fear from the very beginning. He took leonard's best offensive spurts early and quickly turned the tide. From the third round on it was all Norris. Terry Norris, the man who came back from a crushing early knockout and effortlessly annihilated legends while himself becoming a young legend and Hall of Famer.

Robinson wrote:Knuckles

He still took those fights. His opponents thought that they would beat SRL.
Many in the media felt that he would lose. He was still facing very effective
opponents.

How can Hagler still be considered effective if it was his last fight?

"How can Hagler still be considered effective if it was his last fight?"
Elton John


Does this apply for Leonard with the Norris fight ?

dempseyfire wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:First off, people talk about Duran-Leonard like Duran made it completly one-sided. Even stading and trading, Leonard made it a VERY close fight, and I would honestly be open to any claims that they scored it a draw or even a 1 point win for Leonard. Ray showed heart and guts in a GREAT fight. Some people just don't like Leonard and that's fine but don't re-write history.

As to the criticisms here, I agree Leonard dicked Hagler around in the early 80s regarding their purposed fight, it was very classless. For various reasons the fight didn't come off for several years when Hagler was past his best. But, the very fact that Leonard coming back from such a long layoff was able to win (and everytime I've watched the fight I watch it wanting to score it for Hagler but I just cannot) is still a very significant achievment. Added to his 1978-1982 accolades, and you have an all-time great fighter, period.

Duran vs Leonard I was not a close fight like the media implied...Watch how many punches Sugar Ray missed the entire fight. He made the fight "look close" because of his CLUTCHING AND GRABBING TACTICTS.


slug it out with Duran, my ass.

It makes me laugh when people say that Sugar Ray Leonard "slugged it" out with the great Roberto Duran.

The ONLY guys that comes in my mind THAT REALLY SLUG IT OUT WITH ROBERTO DURAN were Marvin Hagler, Hector Thompson, Iran Barkley and Esteban DeJesus (second fight)...Very few slug it out with Duran IN HIS PRIME, or see them win against him....The ones that slug it out with him and win were when Roberto was way past his prime.

I've watched the fight with my own eyes several times. Leonard got into many toe to toe exchanges with Duran and won a few. To imply Leonard ran or that the fight wasn't close is laughable. The fight is there for all to see. It amazes me some people's bias can be so great they actually see an alternate reality.

That fight was not close at all, my friend. Duran beat him in all areas of boxing. When Sugar Ray jab, Duran jab, when Sugar Ray tried to use his speed, Duran nullified it by smothering him on the inside. Leonard missed so many shots in that fight that I cannot believe he missed so many.

For example, watch the end of the 4th round. Sugar Ray tried to use his speed and Duran was not there or had him off balance. Duran's skills were very UNDERRATED.

Leonard hug, clinched and clutched the whole fight...That was the truth of that contest.

Robinson wrote:"How can Hagler still be considered effective if it was his last fight?"
Elton John


Does this apply for Leonard with the Norris fight ?

Nice quote, pal

Robinson wrote:"How can Hagler still be considered effective if it was his last fight?"
Elton John


Does this apply for Leonard with the Norris fight ?

Well since you asked.....which one of his retirements you talking about?

he's had so many of them. From what i heard him say he was ready to retire after the fight with Willie Rodriguez. And again after the first Duran fight he was whipped and thorughly defeated mentally if not physically. he also retired after the Howard fight of 1984.

Did I mention he retired after the Hagler fight for which he said "this was it" for him. "I only wanted hagler" (yeah, sure)

For some reason though he had four more fights including Norris. Then Norris kicked his ass so convincingly he told himself for the sake of his health he'd better not ever fight this man again.

Was this retirement real this time? Evidently not. There was yet another which ended up another embarrassing disaster (KOBy 5 Hector Camacho)

With Hagler no he cannot be considered effective for several reasons, the most compelling reason reason heard on the tape itself round 6 quoting Tim Ryan in case anyone wants to act dumb about it. Tim said "Sugar Ray said Marvin lost a lot of speed and that he was counting on the slowness of hagler"

Any dolt could see this but you know how leonard's fans all are. they like playing dumb about it. It's obvious leonard had always been fearful of him from the start so he would have to wait 6 years for him to slow down enough.

Elton John

I am a fan of both men. I just think that the same exceptions should apply for both men.

It just amazes me at how riled up people get with Ray Leonard. He beat Hagler in a close
fight. That is the fact. If you want to look at it from a neutral perspective, Hagler would
have had the slight advantage. Leonard may have grown confident that he could beat
Hagler after watching the Hamsho fight... so what ?

Fighters retire and un retire all the time. Guess what..they are people. Fighters do
grow tired and weary of the sport...yet something still burns inside of them and they
come back. Leonard is no different to this. Only a few men never returned from
retirement (interestingly two of the more famous ones being from Brockton...Hagler,
Marciano), but many still do return.

You really seem to hate Leonard...thats great. But you have to understand when you
enter a DISCUSSION with absolute and concrete views, as you have, then its really
hard to establish common ground. You seem adament that what you speak is
truth...as though your convictions are right. But all you have is a perspective.
You have about as much knowledge on all of the variables as any of us...
Yet you seem determined to wave your views about the place...and it makes you
hard to take serious.

Leonard and Hagler are both great fighters. It is ashame that the 1987 fight was
not a rematch of a fight that could of happened some years prior.

In regards to Leonard-Duran 1, I have seen it a few times, though some time ago
and I loved the fight. Duran was supreme in it, and I do think he won. But it was close
and messy. I think Leonard went on to show in the rematch that he could frustrate
and dazzle. Say what you will...Duran was injured, untrained, unfit, over the hill, menstral,
just got a divorce, missed out on watching dallas or what have you..at the end of the
day when he first got inside of those ropes he had the intent of winning and he did
take the fight. There is no dishonor to me in one quitting (hell i have been forced to
quit myself, my 'no mas' is tapping the mat), and it is hateful fans like you that can not
see past this.

What if, or could be sadly is not what is.

Kym

Your name is Kym? It's no wonder you taken a liking to him. Me? I'm a man and know that you should never put a boy in battle with a man. Unless it's a real old man.

Kym, thats a good post in which you come across as reasoned and balanced. 8)

Robinson wrote:Elton John

In regards to Leonard-Duran 1, I have seen it a few times, though some time ago
and I loved the fight. Duran was supreme in it, and I do think he won. But it was close
and messy. I think Leonard went on to show in the rematch that he could frustrate
and dazzle. Say what you will...Duran was injured, untrained, unfit, over the hill, menstral,
just got a divorce, missed out on watching dallas or what have you..at the end of the
day when he first got inside of those ropes he had the intent of winning and he did
take the fight. There is no dishonor to me in one quitting (hell i have been forced to
quit myself, my 'no mas' is tapping the mat), and it is hateful fans like you that can not
see past this.

What if, or could be sadly is not what is.

Kym

You think Duran's quitting upsets me? Not one bit it does I will say to your displeasure. Don't blame me for the article-Randy Gordon, Ring magazine's correspondent wrote it. I don't hold it against him if he devulged details you may not care to know of.

When a man is rushed into taking off 40 or more pounds for a 15 round fight I tend not to dismiss it lightly and comparing it to missing an episode of Dallas. Who writes your material may I ask?

Duran's manager Carlos Eleta said what Duran ate on the day of the fight was what he always ate.

This is a guy who sometimes put on 50 lbs between fights as a Lightweight ! Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown both said "He just quit"

Thanks for the info Elton. You make it so easy to appreciate your
view point.

Robinson wrote: In regards to Leonard-Duran 1, I have seen it a few times, though some time ago
and I loved the fight. Duran was supreme in it, and I do think he won. But it was close
and messy. I think Leonard went on to show in the rematch that he could frustrate
and dazzle. Say what you will...Duran was injured, untrained, unfit, over the hill, menstral,
just got a divorce, missed out on watching dallas or what have you..at the end of the
day when he first got inside of those ropes he had the intent of winning and he did
take the fight. There is no dishonor to me in one quitting (hell i have been forced to
quit myself, my 'no mas' is tapping the mat), and it is hateful fans like you that can not
see past this.

What if, or could be sadly is not what is.

Kym

Kym I agree 100% with you post.
Fact 1: Leonard/Duran first fight was very close and Leonard fell into Duran’s type of fight trap.
Fact 2: The second fight Leonard made Duran fight his fight and Duran did not find an answer for Leonard type of fight and was so frustrated that he quit. Duran was losing big on the second fight.
Fact 3: Most Duran fans (not all) can not accept the fact that Leonard made Duran quit.

Duran was not past his prime, he was not sick, he was not over/under trained; he just could not find an answer for Leonard that night. Plain and simple he lost and no excuse could change that.

Elton John has his own ideas however :)

Robinson wrote:Elton John has his own ideas however :)

I know read his shit.....now he is trying to say that Hagler lost his speed......fvck, Hagler never had any speed.

Borinken25 wrote:

Robinson wrote: In regards to Leonard-Duran 1, I have seen it a few times, though some time ago
and I loved the fight. Duran was supreme in it, and I do think he won. But it was close
and messy. I think Leonard went on to show in the rematch that he could frustrate
and dazzle. Say what you will...Duran was injured, untrained, unfit, over the hill, menstral,
just got a divorce, missed out on watching dallas or what have you..at the end of the
day when he first got inside of those ropes he had the intent of winning and he did
take the fight. There is no dishonor to me in one quitting (hell i have been forced to
quit myself, my 'no mas' is tapping the mat), and it is hateful fans like you that can not
see past this.

What if, or could be sadly is not what is.

Kym

Kym I agree 100% with you post.
Fact 1: Leonard/Duran first fight was very close and Leonard fell into Duran’s type of fight trap.
Fact 2: The second fight Leonard made Duran fight his fight and Duran did not find an answer for Leonard type of fight and was so frustrated that he quit. Duran was losing big on the second fight.
Fact 3: Most Duran fans (not all) can not accept the fact that Leonard made Duran quit.

Duran was not past his prime, he was not sick, he was not over/under trained; he just could not find an answer for Leonard that night. Plain and simple he lost and no excuse could change that.

Here's something Leonard fans don't like to bring up,, that Duran had him stumbling across the ring from a left hook to the chin. Pretty hard to "fight your fight" after that. Fact is, Duran and all his fans knew he had the fight in the bag from that point on. Was leaond hurt? yes he was hurt. Could he fight his fight after being hurt as early as the second round? Well, he tried but after being hurt several more times the best he could dl is fight off the ropes as best he could. He knew the fight had already been lost.

Keep in mind that Randy Gordon, correspondent for Ring magazine on assignment, wrote this article in great detail every account. It would be pretty hard to dismiss him as some bitter Duran fan when he is the first man Leonard confides in asking "what do you think? Am I that much bigger and faster than him, etc".

So I find it very hard to believe someone with Randy's credentials and reputation would go thru the trouble of inventing excuses; 40 pounds overweight, taking off the last ten pounds in last 3 days, etc. just to apease the Duran fans--much to the detriment of all Ray leonard fans.

ringsider wrote:

Robinson wrote:Elton John has his own ideas however :)

I know read his shit.....now he is trying to say that Hagler lost his speed......fvck, Hagler never had any speed.

And Leonard? Sure he looked impressive against the Dave Greens of the world, the Ranzany's the Muniz' the Chiaverinis not to mention the relics of the late 80s he didnt have the nerve to face earlier but put him in with Norris and proves every time he really cant do much of anything except cover on the ropes (his natural pose in defeat)

Speaking of not doing much, he wasn't exactly putting on a clinic in the hearns fight either

I trust my meaning is clear! :P

Robinson wrote:Thanks for the info Elton. You make it so easy to appreciate your
view point.

Thank you for your concern. Well, you did ask the question and now you know the answer in detail so you can't make an oversimplification laying all the blame on "it's just those haters of his"

Diamond WEAPON wrote:http://youtube.com/watch?v=1GC70st9y80

Yes, very entertaining. Made in Hollywood I presume. Most of the comments seem to be very negative accusing Ray Leonard of cowardice.

Elton John wrote:

Borinken25 wrote:

Robinson wrote: In regards to Leonard-Duran 1, I have seen it a few times, though some time ago
and I loved the fight. Duran was supreme in it, and I do think he won. But it was close
and messy. I think Leonard went on to show in the rematch that he could frustrate
and dazzle. Say what you will...Duran was injured, untrained, unfit, over the hill, menstral,
just got a divorce, missed out on watching dallas or what have you..at the end of the
day when he first got inside of those ropes he had the intent of winning and he did
take the fight. There is no dishonor to me in one quitting (hell i have been forced to
quit myself, my 'no mas' is tapping the mat), and it is hateful fans like you that can not
see past this.

What if, or could be sadly is not what is.

Kym

Kym I agree 100% with you post.
Fact 1: Leonard/Duran first fight was very close and Leonard fell into Duran’s type of fight trap.
Fact 2: The second fight Leonard made Duran fight his fight and Duran did not find an answer for Leonard type of fight and was so frustrated that he quit. Duran was losing big on the second fight.
Fact 3: Most Duran fans (not all) can not accept the fact that Leonard made Duran quit.

Duran was not past his prime, he was not sick, he was not over/under trained; he just could not find an answer for Leonard that night. Plain and simple he lost and no excuse could change that.

Here's something Leonard fans don't like to bring up,, that Duran had him stumbling across the ring from a left hook to the chin. Pretty hard to "fight your fight" after that. Fact is, Duran and all his fans knew he had the fight in the bag from that point on. Was leaond hurt? yes he was hurt. Could he fight his fight after being hurt as early as the second round? Well, he tried but after being hurt several more times the best he could dl is fight off the ropes as best he could. He knew the fight had already been lost.

Keep in mind that Randy Gordon, correspondent for Ring magazine on assignment, wrote this article in great detail every account. It would be pretty hard to dismiss him as some bitter Duran fan when he is the first man Leonard confides in asking "what do you think? Am I that much bigger and faster than him, etc".

So I find it very hard to believe someone with Randy's credentials and reputation would go thru the trouble of inventing excuses; 40 pounds overweight, taking off the last ten pounds in last 3 days, etc. just to apease the Duran fans--much to the detriment of all Ray leonard fans.

That is not true, Leonard was stun but not really hurt to the point that he would lose all focus. Second, Leonard tried to prove that he was stronger, faster, and fell into Duran’s trap. On the second fight Leonard prove that he was the better boxer. In the second fight Leonard use his intelligence couple with his skills to defeat Duran. Most people want to make excuses to justify Duran quitting the second fight and it was nothing more than frustration on Duran’s part. Duran could not simply figure out Leonard that night and lost to the better man. And I was rooting big time for Duran; however, I’m not going to make any excuses for him. The record stand and it is an official loss on Duran’s record.

These kind of "comments" will always be in the face of any reader that does not know anything or have a clue about boxing.

The lines of:
"Duran was outboxed" or

"Duran could not cope with his frustration" or that

"Sugar Ray fought his fight this time"

will always be in the pages of the media, no matter what other people would see different, like Randy Gordon.

That Duran stopped fighting because of his frustration that he could not get Leonard? ...It will be ALWAYS BE TRUE TO THOSE THAT WANT TO BELIEVE IT.

That Duran had stomach cramps? It will be always be considered a LIE, according to "boxing experts" and SRL fans.

That Duran was "in great shape for the fight"? Only SRL fans would believe it.

That Duran was "not in shape" and had to lose MANY POUNDS BEFORE THE FIGHT, it is not believable for the SRL fans.

That Duran said "No Mas"? Did he really said it? Or was A CREATED LIE by Howard Cossell and the media?

To me, THE WHOLE TRUTH WAS, that EVEN IF Leonard fought Duran INSIDE ALL NIGHT like in Montreal, he would have won the contest by decision. Duran was not even sharp on his punches, neither had the MOVEMENT to get inside Leonard

THOSE ARE SIGNS THAT:

Either something was wrong with him (Duran)
Or either he did not prepared himself mentally and physically for the fight.

In the first fight: Duran made Leonard missed MOST OF THE TIME
In the second fight: Duran was not even in the state of moving like he wanted to, and it showed...Was it the stomach cramps? Or was it that he was not in shape for the fight?

In the first fight: Duran LOOKED LIKE A LION that wanted to take his prey anyway he can..His eyes LOOKED LIKE HE WAS READY
In the second fight: Duran LOOKED LIKE A PUSSYCAT from the opening bell. The INTENSITY IN HIS EYES were not there at all. He did not even looked ready.

In the first fight: Leonard tried to outboxed Duran...That LIE that he "tried to prove" that he could slug it out with Duran DOES NOT MAKE NO SENSE. ONLY SRL fans and the media BOUGHT THAT LINE. Even to the point, that, the media DISMISS Duran's abilities as a boxer. The MEDIA PAINTED HIM as a brawler, a guy with no skill, only brute force and power and Leonard was described as a FINE BOXER. But the TRUTH was that HE WAS OUTBOXED BY THE UNDERRATED HANDS OF STONE...BY FAR. He (Duran) surprised me with his all around skill, something that the MEDIA would not like to say that he was outboxed but say things like: "It was a grueling match", "Leonard went toe to toe" (which he did not, he CLUTCHED AND GRABBED THE WHOLE FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL) and was SURPRISED BY DURAN'S SPEED, Something that would never be given CREDIT for Duran in his whole career.
Second Fight: Duran was slow, disoriented and probably OVERWHELMED before the OPENING BELL

The FACTS are that:
Duran Quit
Leonard was MORE CONFIDENT
Leonard was winning the fight
Leonard was NEVER the better man
NOBODY PROBABLY WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN NEW ORLEANS...ONLY THE ALMIGHTY AND DURAN KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED.

And besides all that, NOBODY MENTIONED that the fight was pushed too fast for a rematch, only poster Elton John said it.

Thanks Elton