BoxRec

Jaywheel wrote:Of course. When a thread is named Top fighters who had poor defense, only the TOP part is relevant, the rest is superfluous.
Now I'm gonna go beat the shit out of Julio Cesar Chavez And Evander Holyfield, since they got such a poor defense...

I'll give them their due --- their defense is better than yours of Gatti

Arturo was a top fighter. He drew big live crowds, drew huge TV numbers, and made a lot of money. That's a top fighter in my book.

Cap wrote:Arturo was a top fighter. He drew big live crowds, drew huge TV numbers, and made a lot of money. That's a top fighter in my book.

Top fighter?, maybe, but not all time great.

kikibalt wrote:

Cap wrote:Arturo was a top fighter. He drew big live crowds, drew huge TV numbers, and made a lot of money. That's a top fighter in my book.

Top fighter?, maybe, but not all time great.

The subject wasn't all-time greats who had poor defence.

Cap wrote:The subject wasn't all-time greats who had poor defence.

Goodnight, Irene wrote: I'll give them their due

JCC and the Real Deal can now find peaceful sleep... Irene gives them recognition. Now the world, blind by that revelation, might consider that these two weren't punching bags, which is, the general assumption, right?

Cap wrote:Arturo was a top fighter. He drew big live crowds, drew huge TV numbers, and made a lot of money. That's a top fighter in my book.

Everything you say here is true, but the topic is addressing the fighters abilities. None of the above is relevant to the criteria.

"JCC and the Real Deal can now find peaceful sleep... Irene gives them recognition. Now the world, blind by that revelation, might consider that these two weren't punching bags, which is, the general assumption, right?" - Jaywheel

Artie, Artie, he's our man, if he can't do it, no one can! Gooooooooo Artie!!!

Why is that fighters with poor defense are consistently more popular than guys with great defense ? It says alot about boxing fans in general.

Seamus wrote:Why is that fighters with poor defense are consistently more popular than guys with great defense ? It says alot about boxing fans in general.

Something I've been saying for years 8)

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Seamus wrote:Why is that fighters with poor defense are consistently more popular than guys with great defense ? It says alot about boxing fans in general.

Something I've been saying for years 8)

I think it has to do with fans wanting to see hyper-exciting ebb-and-flow fights that the defensive masters simply don't always provide. Vazquez-Marquez, Corrales-Castillo, Hagler-Hearns etc. were all wars between fighters at the top of their games who were simply more offensively sound than defensively sound.

I think that's why so many haters of Mayweather used to try to act like Pacquiao should've been #1 P4P. I mean you've never seen Mayweather get caught and wobbled like Pacman did against JMM in the 3rd round and engage in a back-and-forth war. Floyd is much more of a point-scorer and his style is simply too defensively sound to make that type of fight possible. Ricky Hatton however, managed to change that a little because he brought enough speed to force Mayweather to fight in a more active and creative way. The Hatton fight was easily the most exciting and fan-friendly fight PBF's had in years because Hatton provided a style that made for a good fight where Ricky was fighting even with Floyd for the first half before Mayweather finally figured out his timing for landing more heavily on Hatton. Ricky forced him to modify his gameplan a lot more and like Steward said "brought out the best in him".

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Her defense is better than Gatti's.

:P

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"JCC and the Real Deal can now find peaceful sleep... Irene gives them recognition. Now the world, blind by that revelation, might consider that these two weren't punching bags, which is, the general assumption, right?" - Jaywheel

Artie, Artie, he's our man, if he can't do it, no one can! Gooooooooo Artie!!!

-Waste of space for a post really not that funny-

Arturo Gatti
Ricky Hatton

they are a disaster in the boxing defense art

"Top Fighters Who Had Poor Defence" eliminates good or great defensive boxers right off the bat. So we're discussing big name sluggers who were fan favourites despite their poor defence. That would include Tom Sharkey, Battling Nelson, Luis Firpo, Paolino Uzcudun, Rocky Graziano, etc. I think Arturo Gatti belongs in that group.

Cap wrote:"Top Fighters Who Had Poor Defence" eliminates good or great defensive boxers right off the bat. So we're discussing big name sluggers who were fan favourites despite their poor defence. That would include Tom Sharkey, Battling Nelson, Luis Firpo, Paolino Uzcudun, Rocky Graziano, etc. I think Arturo Gatti belongs in that group.

Tell us more about Bat Nelson's defense, Mr. "expert."

LOL

Where did he put his chin?

What did he do as he moved inside?
[Where did put his chin, his forearms]

WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO HIT HIM as he made his move from long range to inside--since, as you claim--he had no defense?

LOL

If he had no defense (as you claim) WHAT WOULD YOU DO to hit him on the inside?

Tell us ALL about it, "expert."

:)

Cap can jabber away, posting generalities,

but he can't answer the simplest questions about Bat Nelson and his fighting techniques.

WHY?

Because Cap knows nothing about Bat Nelson or the fact that boxing consists of various techniques.

Keep the "expertise" coming, Cap.

LOL

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Counter-P, Chavez fought a lot of tomato cans in his day, I think we can all agree. That doesn't hurt his numbers, & he was also a high-output fighter, which has to be considered. People can rightly argue that men such as Chavez & Frazier had strong defense for their styles, but the reality is these fighters are still working on a mantra of taking punches to land punches. Look at Frazier after the first fight with Ali --- Ali acknowledged that Frazier was harder to hit than he expected, but the latter still looked like Frankenstein afterward.

oh come on JCC fought 'tomatocans' well if you fight 100 times you won'#t fight pernell evry time out will you?

and the ones he was fighting in between the 'cans weren't too bad, were they? last time i looked rosario ramirez mayweather lockridge camacho Taylor makes for a decent resume. and only taylor of those mentioned managed to hit him consistently.

anyways my point is- you said 'we don't have to look further than JCC' for a great who was poor defensively

are you seriously suggesting he was an inferior defensive fighter to- say- Arguello? Pryor? Marciano? Graziano? you're saying Chavez was easier to hit than those men (and many more i could name)?

Seamus wrote:Not prior to the Chavez fight. If you can get to see the Meldrick Taylor vs Buddy McGirt fight in it's entirety, it's one of the most amazing displays of boxing ability of the last 20 yrs. McGirt is a borderline HOF'er and he look's totally out of his league against Taylor.

yeah although to be fair you have to say Buddy was weightdrained at 140 by then, moved up to 147 straight after. he actually if i recall won the first round and got taylor into a brawl that he took a couple of rounds to start winning. taylor just took buddy's best and then started to annihilate him.

granberry wrote:Cap can jabber away, posting generalities,

but he can't answer the simplest questions about Bat Nelson and his fighting techniques.

WHY?

Because Cap knows nothing about Bat Nelson or the fact that boxing consists of various techniques.

Keep the "expertise" coming, Cap.

LOL

You never answered my simple question on how was the Gerry Cooney Vs Jimmy Young fight fixed

Terry D wrote:Watched Taylor-McGirt again last night and in the pre-fight interview McGirt looked quite drawn, as most fighters do but he actually fought relatively well early in the fight.

As someone who threw mean right hooks at medium range McGirt was baffled, seemingly, by the fact Taylor would out punch him at long range then step right into him and out punch him at close range, before moving off and not giving McGirt a chance at the range he likes. I think it is one of those displays where one guy takes another guy out of his stride and the other guy fails to, or cannot, adjust.

true terry d, as the commentary i think said very early on, Taylor's speed really gave mcgirt problems and he couldn't adjust like you say.

i don't think the draining affected the result mate but i think it helped make it more emphatic.

the best version of Mcgirt would still struggle to beat taylor on that night just because his best punches didn't seem to dent taylor. great fight though I agree 8)

i still would like to hear if irene thinks JCC is an inferior defensive fighter to marciano/pryor/ etc....

Counter-P...

"oh come on JCC fought 'tomatocans' well if you fight 100 times you won'#t fight pernell evry time out will you..."

I said he fought his share, I never said --- or implied --- he feasted on them. Do you agree or disagree?

"...and the ones he was fighting in between the 'cans weren't too bad, were they? last time i looked rosario ramirez mayweather lockridge camacho Taylor makes for a decent resume. and only taylor of those mentioned managed to hit him consistently..."

Never said he lacked quality opposition, either. I haven't seen the Chavez-Lockridge or Chavez-Ramirez bout, but you don't think he ate his fair share of punches in those (& other) skirmishes? Using the Mayweather bout is a cheap stunt --- the bout only lasted two rounds.

"...anyways my point is- you said 'we don't have to look further than JCC' for a great who was poor defensively.

are you seriously suggesting he was an inferior defensive fighter to- say- Arguello? Pryor? Marciano? Graziano? you're saying Chavez was easier to hit than those men (and many more i could name)?"

The implication in, "not having to look further" being he is a great example --- not the example by definition, & Chavez is indeed a great example. He simply got pounded in a lot of his victories. De La Hoya painted a masterpiece of hurt on his face, albeit late in his career. Whitaker couldn't miss him. Taylor was hitting him with his eyes closed. All great fighters, but even they were landing at rarely high percentages against Chavez's face-first approach, which utilised far fewer defensive-minded angles than Duran, for example.

Pryor's defense was certainly better than Chavez's. Pryor was a more versatile fighter than Chavez ever was. You also pitifully undersell Arguello's defense. Neither were exceptional --- neither were as poor as Chavez.

Another cheerleader?

well thats clearer reasoning even if it doesn't always make much sense :)

first why bother saying DLH painted a world of hurt on him he was shot by then. pretty easy to look bad defensively when you're giving up the kind of speed advantage JCC was to oscar then.

mayweather, well duh you do know he fought him twice, right?

i just don't agree the stiffbacked arguello was better defensively. i don't think escalera would 'paint a masterpiece of hurt on JCC's face' like he did to arguello.

as for pryor no way on earth would JCC be running right onto a dujuan johnson right hand and getting knocked flat down like pryor was.

if you don't see JCC utilising angles i wonder if you're looking hard enough. rosario was a quality offensive operator who hit him cleanly maybe 2/3 times the whole fight. maybe he was trying to miss? or maybe he didn't appreciate JCC's angles either

and if you haven't seen the lockridge or ramirez fights i can tell you rocky in particular struggled to hit JCC. the last few rounds he was kindof boxing circles round lockridge like, umm, maybe calzaghe in his better moments vs kessler or something. ramirez was more like a mexian standoff.

My2Sense wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Her defense is better than Gatti's.

:P

Blondes have wonderful defense, My-2 :P

Goodnight, Irene wrote:his opposition between 1960-67 wasn't great for the most part.

Wasn't great... compared to what other Heavyweight champion?

Ali didn't have great defensive skills, but I would distinguish between saying that and saying that he was a poor defensive fighter in his prime. He had great defense, but by unorthodox means, which faded as time went on. But if you can avoid most of your opponents punches, you are by definition a good defensive fighter. His speed was his defense.