BoxRec

Jaclem, thanx you. at first we had some battles, but ive read a lot of ur posts and gained a ton of respect for u, and respect your knowledge on the sport.

Jaclem wrote:

..brocktonbuster.....i have alot of respect for your admiration for marciano and you give good arguments in his favor.

alas....they wouldn't help him against foreman. marciano's greatest asset....moreso than his punch or chin....which were both formidable...was his strength....astonishing for a man his size. but..against foreman it would be more than nullified.....foreman may have been the strongest heavy champ we've ever had and there's no way marciano could bull him around. if he fought foreman he'd be in danger of getting decapitated.

i know...i know...early foreman had stamina problems....but against the much smaller marciano that wouldn't come into play...foreman would get him out early.

Jaclem, I agee that his strength was his best asset. for his size (185 lbs) he might have been the strongest 185 lb fighter ever. I agree he wouldnt be able to bull foreman around in the early rounds and slug it out, and outphysical him. for marciano to win the fight aginst foreman, he would have to survive and early onslaught which i think hes more capable of than frazier because of his two handed power and his ackward crouch stance. BUT THATS WHY I CALL THE FOREMAN-MARCIANO FIGHT A TOSS UP. DEFINETLY NOT ONE OF ROCKYS BETTER MATCHUPS, I THINK ROCKY PAIRS UP MUCH BETTER AGAINST LISTON THAN FOREMAN. FOREMAN COULD PUT HIM AWAY EARLY.

marcianos got a strong chin, and never really came close to getitng knocked out, but if he gets hit continuesely by foreman hell be out cause he never faced a hitter like foreman. though archie is one of the greatest finishers of all time and couldnt put marciano away. i think it would be an interesting fight and rockys heart and stamina could play a big factor if the fight last to the mi rounds cause he will start to bang away at foremans body and fire the overhand right at foremans head inside of foremans long lopping punches. foreman will tire and the rock will stop him late IF the fight goes to the later rounds. can marciano survive the early rounds??? WE WILL NEVER KNOW, THATS UP FOR US TO DISCUSS. ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE.

Its hard picturing marciano losing cause the guy just never lost and no other heavyweight champion can say that. its hard to picture marciano out on the canvas let alone losing cause we never saw it happen, but its possible at the big hands of foreman. basically it comes down to this, foreman has to stop him early and has a good chance of doing that, while marciano has to survive early, and if he does, marciano will wear him down and batter foreman who will tire and marciano will stop him late. ITS A TOSS UP IN MY OPNION. I have mentioned before if i had to pick 1 i would probably lean toward marciano not just cause i like him. but if foreman won, i wouldnt be suprised. GREAT MATCHUP FOR FOREMAN, BAD ONE FOR MARCIANO.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Its hard picturing marciano losing cause the guy just never lost and no other heavyweight champion can say that.

Think of Mike Tyson in late 1989...never lost, and nobody could envision him losing anytime soon...

Think of Muhammad Ali in 1967...never lost, and nobody could envision him losing anytime soon...

Think of the real 'greatest', Joe Louis in 1936...undefeated and streaking...I wasn't around then, but I'll bet nobody expected him to lose anytime soon either...

Think of Larry Holmes in 1985...48-0 heading into the Spinks fight, few were giving blown up light heavy Spinks a chance even though Larry was 35 or 36...(many say he did win...but it's not in the record books that way)

Think of Joe Frazier in early 1973...heavy favorite, taking on Foreman (while avoiding an Ali rematch as long as possible)...nobody really expected George to win...

Think of George Foreman in 1974...I was an Ali fan, but I really didn't expect him to win (we were screaming and rooting for him at the theater, but we didn't expect the win)...

Think of Evander Holyfield in 1992...Michael Moorer in 1994 (against a 45 year old!)...

There's 8 undefeated heavyweights, 7 sitting champions...they were all undefeated going into fights...all expected to win big (except when Frazier fought Ali...only 1 could win, of course)...

...the point is...anything can happen...

...it's not as hard for me to envision Marciano (or anybody) beaten, because I've seen others I never expected to lose beaten...upsets, bad decisions, cuts...there are a hundred things that can go wrong...

...and anybody who guarantees that their guy could beat the rest is usually deluding themselves...even Joe Louis got upset, and he was arguably the best...

Marciano was in the right place at the right time...timing is everything...

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html

good evaluation of the Rock.

jimglen thats a bad evaluation of rock. cox IS SO BIASED. HE THINKS JACK DEMPSEY WOULD HAVE BEATEN JOE LOUIS. I THINK HE DEFINETELY PUTS HIS FAVORITE FIGHTERS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST.

WOW most of this chain destroyed marciano. You might say he was in the right place at the right time, but the man beat everyone he could...there was noone out there that he could have possibly fought that was better then the opponents at the time..his opponents might have been a little past there prime, but they werent chumps... he never lost...he never had a bad fight when it counted, and he deserves alot of respect...

1)Liston- YES (liston was easily intimidated and had a weak stomach..ask ali...liston was just a punk...)
2)Foreman- YES(rocky marciano in a 6 round KO
3)Ali-NO (maybe...maybe the 70's ali, but ali was much too fast and much to smart)
4)Tyson-YES (rocky was never intimidated, tyson would come in throwing haymakers, and eventually tire out and get tko in the later rounds)
5)Lewi- YESSS-( not even close..lewis had been suseptable to hard hitters, and rocky would have rocked his world..lewis was a good fighter, but rocky was better)

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:jimglen thats a bad evaluation of rock. cox IS SO BIASED. HE THINKS JACK DEMPSEY WOULD HAVE BEATEN JOE LOUIS. I THINK HE DEFINETELY PUTS HIS FAVORITE FIGHTERS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST.

Don't you?

I just can't come to see Marciano beating Foreman in anyway at all. It's just hard for me to imagine.

Grimm wrote:I just can't come to see Marciano beating Foreman in anyway at all. It's just hard for me to imagine.

Why not?...if you can see Wilt Chamberlain beating Ali...you should be able to imagine anything...

sweet scientist wrote:

Why not?...if you can see Wilt Chamberlain beating Ali...you should be able to imagine anything...

that is true grimm. marciano beating foreman is much more likely than chamberlin beating ali.

Broncano wrote:I say Liston, Tantum, and one of the reasons is because my father was at Comiskey Park in 1962, and he swears to me he's never seen a performance as brutal as Sonny's destruction of Floyd Patterson. I've heard him (my old man) tell the tale of how Sonny hammered Patterson with two left hooks and a right a thousand times.
Im by no means that old, but old enough to have seen Foreman in his prime, and it seems fair to ask whether he was better than Liston. Nothing uneducated about it. Don't ask my dad, though. Hell, He'll tell you Liston would murder Foreman...and Marciano...and Tyson...and Lewis (if he'd bothered to see his fights). Now, Ali is another story.

Broncano, you so crazy.....
JCS Loves You :P

Liston..... I think it could be a war but i also think liston is overrated. i think that it would be a very hard fight for both and rocky would wear liston down and eventually ko liston

Foreman..... to big to strong having but there is always the chance marciano lands a bomb

Ali... a 1967 ali would school marciano for spam

Tyson..... Mike would come out fast and hard all marciano would have to do is survive and start throwing punches that land it doesnt matter where aslong as they land eventually mike would break and marciano would ko him but tyson could take the win with a quick stoppage

Lewis..... lewis is very big and i could see him winning a ud unless marciano finds a way to get in lewis' reach and tag him

There's alot to consider in these dream matches. Marciano fought in an era of 15 rounds, not so squeamish of referees; Rocky generally fought inside of 16x16 rings, while Ali fought in 24x24 rings, etc the smaller ring would have benefited Marciano's zig-zagging motion of cutting down the ring tremendously...but even with all things considered:

Marciano vs Liston= it would take Marciano at his best to stand a chance against Liston, who in my opinion was possibly the greatest heavyweight destroyer. Liston gets dismissed these days, but mind you, had you taken away the Ali fights this man didn't lose another fight until he was in his 40's in 1969 against Leotis Martin. This man could knock a man out with a jab, he had a good deal of hand speed for a puncher, had a great reach and he was rather light in his feet and his chin was always dependable. I think if anything, this fight comes down to not only conditioning, but who could take the most, and could dish it back in the face of danger...Liston showed against Ali he could be broken mentally...it makes me wonder what Liston would do if he landed his best Sunday punch on Rocky and Marciano, in typical, fashion takes half a step back and two steps forward? It's too close a call for me to make.

Marciano vs Foreman= this is the only HW that I can't see Marciano standing much of a chance against. You couldnt come to Foreman, like Frazier done, else you would be destroyed. You could try to run away, but eventually you would get decked. If Rocky was to stand a chance, it would be a punchers chance and he'd have to make it into a stand up brawl like Foreman had against Ron Lyle...but iono of any HW past or present who could have taken Foreman's shots, in his prime, in that mode (brawling) for any more than 5 rounds. It would come down to who could land more often, and who could take it better...but I think Foreman stops Rocky by KO in the 6th round.

Marciano vs Ali= depends on what version of Ali you're talking. In a prime vs prime basis, I see it being a very close, fiercly contested fight, but Ali wins by TKO in the 13th round or so, Marciano gets cut to bits.

Marciano vs Tyson= comes down to who wants it more, who has the tougher mind set...Marciano fought all but blind for several rounds against Walcott and got the shit kicked out of him before the right hand that scrambled his brains landed...Marciano also put aside his own personal feelings for Joe Louis, did what he had to and knocked him out...Tyson on the other hand ALWAYS let his emotions get best of him, and in his later career showed if he couldnt put someone away early, he'd resolve to dirty tactics and if that didn't work...he just gave up. I see Marciano taking Tyson's best shots for 10-11 rounds, then knocking him out in the 12th of a scheduled 15.

Marciano vs Lewis= I think this comes down to Lewis' ego. If Lewis thought Marciano was too small, too easy to hit, and the like, I believe he would have disregarded Rocky and come into the shape and belief he had of himself against Rahman and McCall...and Rocky would knock him out...but if Lewis took him serious, I think you would see something along the lines of Holyfield-Lewis or Mercer-Lewis, with Lewis pulling a hard fought decision.

Tantum wrote:Marciano beat Charles, Walcott and Louis. Even at the age they were at, they all would have beaten Liston.

You're crazy. I wouldn't favor them over Liston in their primes, let alone at that stage of their careers. Its been said again and again, but a lot of fighters could have been undefeated in Marciano's era.

I would favor Liston over Marciano

Foreman beats him

Ali beats him

I guess Tyson might beat him, but I wouldn't really be surprised if Marciano won

Lewis

1) Liston- Batters Marciano and finishes him in the 9th.
2) Foreman - Easy 1st round kayo for Foreman.
3) Ali - Rips Marciano to shreds and takes a late round tko win.
4) Tyson- Brutally dispatches Marciano in the 1st round. Absolute worse person for the Rock to face.
5) Lewis finishes him in 6 rounds. The Rock doesn't get close to Lewis's chin with those stubby arms.

Broncano wrote:I say Liston, Tantum, and one of the reasons is because my father was at Comiskey Park in 1962, and he swears to me he's never seen a performance as brutal as Sonny's destruction of Floyd Patterson. I've heard him (my old man) tell the tale of how Sonny hammered Patterson with two left hooks and a right a thousand times.
Im by no means that old, but old enough to have seen Foreman in his prime, and it seems fair to ask whether he was better than Liston. Nothing uneducated about it. Don't ask my dad, though. Hell, He'll tell you Liston would murder Foreman...and Marciano...and Tyson...and Lewis (if he'd bothered to see his fights). Now, Ali is another story.

this is in response to Broncano's first post... Now you dont have to wait anymore.

always daft this im afraid to speculate imo would Rocky have beaten the likes of foreman, ali, Lennox..... no he wouldnt he wouldnt have been big enough to get near him.

Does that make him a worse champion no or was he better in his day .....quite possibly.

Look at the stats guys it would have been men and boys against some of the guys of today. Marciano would have made a small cruiser let alone a small heavy. The height reach and weight disadvantages would have been too immense which is why its almost impossible to rate all time heavyweights.

Marciano circa 185 llbs reach 67 inches hight 5.10
Lennox circa 245 llbs reach 84 inches height 6.5

so thats half a foot, 60 llbs and 20 inches nearly in reach, get real people and take off the rose tinted glasses.

I Feel Fine wrote:

Tantum wrote:Marciano beat Charles, Walcott and Louis. Even at the age they were at, they all would have beaten Liston.

You're crazy. I wouldn't favor them over Liston in their primes, let alone at that stage of their careers. Its been said again and again, but a lot of fighters could have been undefeated in Marciano's era.

I would favor Liston over Marciano

Foreman beats him

Ali beats him

I guess Tyson might beat him, but I wouldn't really be surprised if Marciano won

Lewis

That post was four and a half years ago man.

I would still say a Prime Ezzard beats Liston. Prime Walcott - Liston is a good matchup, even the old versions give Liston trouble.

Marciano - Liston is a tough call.

gensu3k1 wrote:::I don't think Marciano could stand up to Listons attack for 15 rounds there is just to big of a difference in size and strength. People underrate Liston saying he was abully and had no heart. That is not true. Liston was frustrated and showed no heart against Clay is beacuse he couldn't hit him and was being peppered in return. As long as Liston could Connect which he would be able to against Marciano he did fine.::

Ali was the only heavyweight of Marciano's caliber that Liston faced, and Sonny quit.

::Foreman was not like Liston or Tyson in stamina but was able to bomb out Fraizer who noboady ever said had a bad chin and I think he could do the same to Maricano.::

I think Rocky's chin was better than Joe's, but I agree that this is Foreman's fight.

::Lennox Lewis has the power, skills, reach and size to keep Maricano at bay and not get hit clean through the entire fight.::

Based on what? His fights with Tua and an out of shape, old Tyson? Marciano would be an entirely different challenge.

Couldnt agree more. Lewis was the bigger man in most of his fights. I dont know why Lewis is in these mythical matchups he is the most overarted HW champ in history.

I think the size differentials in proposed match-ups with guys like Lewis, is highly biased against Marciano. I only say this, because the most under-rated ability of Marciano was his ability to get inside. Mind you, Rocky never fought a man smaller than himself in his entire career. Early on in his career he fought men who were listed as being as much as 250 pounds and some were in the 6'2"-6'5" range. All these men, he knocked out.

So, I think in alot of ways, it's unfair to say Marciano could never 'touch' Lewis throughout the fight. The man never fought in retreat, or in fear, like Tua done against Lewis. He took two steps forward after taking half a step backwards...and I think had Tua taken more initiative, he probably could have scored a knockout, but he didn't, he fought scared.

Marciano is alikened to Holyfield in the sense that Holyfield wasn't afraid of Lewis, and both were hard fought fights; Marciano only gots conditioning, a greater punch rate and possibly a harder punch over Evander...the toughness, I think, is generally on the level, Holyfield was only stopped twice in his career and Marciano was only knocked down twice.

It might take Rocky some doing to get inside against Lewis, but make no mistake, once he'd get in there, Lewis would have wished he wasn't.

JAHamilton77 wrote:

Broncano wrote:I say Liston, Tantum, and one of the reasons is because my father was at Comiskey Park in 1962, and he swears to me he's never seen a performance as brutal as Sonny's destruction of Floyd Patterson. I've heard him (my old man) tell the tale of how Sonny hammered Patterson with two left hooks and a right a thousand times.
Im by no means that old, but old enough to have seen Foreman in his prime, and it seems fair to ask whether he was better than Liston. Nothing uneducated about it. Don't ask my dad, though. Hell, He'll tell you Liston would murder Foreman...and Marciano...and Tyson...and Lewis (if he'd bothered to see his fights). Now, Ali is another story.

Broncano, you so crazy.....
JCS Loves You :P

Thanks Hamilton

That sounds like a great idea for a bumper sticker, too "Smile, JCS loves you!"

Liston TKO8 Marciano
Foreman TKO5 Marciano
Ali UD15 Marciano - close but clear decision to Ali. Ali wins TKO13 in the rematch.
Marciano SD15 Tyson - this is the hardest to call. I think the damage Tyson does in the first 4 rounds would make a big impact on the fight.
Lewis UD15 Marciano - i think a clear decision to Lewis is most likely. possibly Rocky KOs Lewis, and Lewis wins the rematch on points.