BoxRec

stujones wrote:I agree with KG - without US TV the belts mean nothing.

I mean maybe some of the following didn't want the hype profile fights, but what did non US TV to do the following.

Junior Witter
Clinton Woods
Arthur Abraham
Felix Sturm

Junior Witter - made 1 defence against a guy in the top 10 at the time.
Clinton Woods - could seemingly fight only 3 opponents (Delisle, Gonzalez, Johnson)
Abraham - Interest has picked up since the Miranda fight - which was showcased on US TV.
Sturm - Not even being mentioned as a possible Pavlik opponent.

Now the Green Belt CAN be used as a bargin tool, however unless he gets showcased as a champion in the US - it will be more fights in Nottingham against Fringe contenders. The US are not going to know of him on Sunday morning, even if he smashes Pascal.

Witter looked good vs Harris - did that do anything for his career - Nope. Cause it wasn't showcased in the states.

Maybe the WBC title can get him a fight with someone like Zuniga on the Undercard of a US TV bill - but its not going to get him Pavlik, Taylor etc in a main event. Maybe after he beats someone like Zuniga then yes. Providing the Zuniga fight will be on US TV.

America isn't the only market, though it helps. There is also Germany, where huge TV audiences and crowds are drawn. The 2nd WBC mandatory will probably be Karo Murat, a Sauerland fighter. Maybe that would help build an Abraham fight, with Abraham moving up to 168 on the cards. Showtime would be probably interested in Froch and Abraham, as they have been in the past.

Froch could hit the jackpot on Saturday and interest a lot of ppl.

Witter and Woods had nothing to interest the Americans because of the losses they were known for, and the fact that many ppl consider them boring. I would think Froch is a fair bit more compelling to watch than those 2, his "fight" with Inkin was scheduled for Showtime so he did draw US interest, at least when a compelling fight was on the cards. Froch has to be impressive on Sat - that way there is the possibility of fights with guys that can get you on Showtime (Dirrell, whom they are building toward a title shot, and who has turned down a WBO shot, so that narrows things down a bit) and HBO (Taylor).

Taylor IS the WBC mandatory, Jermain HAS expressed interest in the fight, just as he has expressed interest in Bute. A title can get someone like Froch something very interesting. If nothing happened for him US wise, he would have his title, his home crowd (compare Witter, whose "homecoming" v Harris was in the Doncaster Dome!), and decent mandatory opponents - and an ITV audience - and could look to Europe where boxing is more popular than it is here and in America.

If Froch wins in style on Saturday, surely the Canadians are going to be thinking about Froch vs Bute?

So that's another market to add. The UK (home crowd, ITV prime time), Germany (mandatories and champ moving up from middle), Denmark and Germany (Kessler unification), America (Dirrell poss eyeing WBC title, maybe Taylor), and Canada (unification with Bute) - Froch will be better known in Canada after Saturday.

I do think Froch would have to do some travelling at some point, though - not everyone will come to him ala Pascal. It could be more like Inkin in some cases, you never know.

Reckon there's a lot of potential for Froch. Hope he wins on Sat. His career has been retarted by injury and withdrawals of opponents, but now it can move forward.


I can just see it, Froch smashing Pascal for WBC belt - "Froch is going nowhere" - Right!

I really hope Froch does travel, regardless of the result on Saturday.

Who's been calling Taylor a coward for 3 pages? I think the article that says Taylor is not interested is out of date, because he's said the opposite since then.

Autobarn wrote:.America isn't the only market, though it helps. There is also Germany, where huge TV audiences and crowds are drawn. The 2nd WBC mandatory will probably be Karo Murat, a Sauerland fighter. Maybe that would help build an Abraham fight, with Abraham moving up to 168 on the cards. Showtime would be probably interested in Froch and Abraham, as they have been in the past.

Froch could hit the jackpot on Saturday and interest a lot of ppl.

Witter and Woods had nothing to interest the Americans because of the losses they were known for, and the fact that many ppl consider them boring. I would think Froch is a fair bit more compelling to watch than those 2, his "fight" with Inkin was scheduled for Showtime so he did draw US interest, at least when a compelling fight was on the cards. Froch has to be impressive on Sat - that way there is the possibility of fights with guys that can get you on Showtime (Dirrell, whom they are building toward a title shot, and who has turned down a WBO shot, so that narrows things down a bit) and HBO (Taylor).

Taylor IS the WBC mandatory, Jermain HAS expressed interest in the fight, just as he has expressed interest in Bute. A title can get someone like Froch something very interesting. If nothing happened for him US wise, he would have his title, his home crowd (compare Witter, whose "homecoming" v Harris was in the Doncaster Dome!), and decent mandatory opponents - and an ITV audience - and could look to Europe where boxing is more popular than it is here and in America.

No America isn't the only market... however, its the market that matters - do you think Abraham is seriously going to consider fighting Froch for the same money as he gets for his normal in germany defences! Abraham/Strum will be interested in BIG money unification fights, or no unification at all. At the moment, the Froch/Pascal winner offers too much risk, and the reward isn't substancial. Guys like Taylor/Pavlik offer a similar risk with a much bigger reward.

Junior Witter is usually dull as dishwater I grant you that, but Clinton Woods? His 3 fights with Johnson were among the three best fights on British soil in recent years - if those fights were in the states they would have lapped up Woods. Sometimes home advantage = a disadvantage. I am sure (actually convinced) that had Hennessey lost the purse bids for the Corley/Harris fights that US TV would have showcased Witter vs Harris - same with Woods vs Johnson 3 (I know FA didn't win the bids for that one).

The only thing really going in Froch/Pascal's favour is that Abraham isn't a champion at 168 yet.

I can see why Taylor might want Bute. He's seen Bute pretty much knocked out by Andrade. Ironically, Taylor doesn't seem to have the power and the aggression and the urge to finish a fighter.

Early on v Lacy, he looked like he was going to do a Daniel Edouard on him. But the impact just wasn't there and then he won the rest of the fight in lethargic fashion.

Autobarn, stop being such a boorish fanboy and step back and look at the situation.


Why on earth should Taylor, who has beaten Bernard Hopkins twice, bother to fight a dangerous, but complete no name in Carl Frotch?

As much as I respect Froch, he doesn't have the drawing power that HBO would demand. Has to be Kessler v Taylor. There's no other recognisable names at 168 (no Bute isn't yet, his figures aren't great).

stujones wrote:

Autobarn wrote:.America isn't the only market, though it helps. There is also Germany, where huge TV audiences and crowds are drawn. The 2nd WBC mandatory will probably be Karo Murat, a Sauerland fighter. Maybe that would help build an Abraham fight, with Abraham moving up to 168 on the cards. Showtime would be probably interested in Froch and Abraham, as they have been in the past.

Froch could hit the jackpot on Saturday and interest a lot of ppl.

Witter and Woods had nothing to interest the Americans because of the losses they were known for, and the fact that many ppl consider them boring. I would think Froch is a fair bit more compelling to watch than those 2, his "fight" with Inkin was scheduled for Showtime so he did draw US interest, at least when a compelling fight was on the cards. Froch has to be impressive on Sat - that way there is the possibility of fights with guys that can get you on Showtime (Dirrell, whom they are building toward a title shot, and who has turned down a WBO shot, so that narrows things down a bit) and HBO (Taylor).

Taylor IS the WBC mandatory, Jermain HAS expressed interest in the fight, just as he has expressed interest in Bute. A title can get someone like Froch something very interesting. If nothing happened for him US wise, he would have his title, his home crowd (compare Witter, whose "homecoming" v Harris was in the Doncaster Dome!), and decent mandatory opponents - and an ITV audience - and could look to Europe where boxing is more popular than it is here and in America.

No America isn't the only market... however, its the market that matters - do you think Abraham is seriously going to consider fighting Froch for the same money as he gets for his normal in germany defences! Abraham/Strum will be interested in BIG money unification fights, or no unification at all. At the moment, the Froch/Pascal winner offers too much risk, and the reward isn't substancial. Guys like Taylor/Pavlik offer a similar risk with a much bigger reward.

Junior Witter is usually dull as dishwater I grant you that, but Clinton Woods? His 3 fights with Johnson were among the three best fights on British soil in recent years - if those fights were in the states they would have lapped up Woods. Sometimes home advantage = a disadvantage. I am sure (actually convinced) that had Hennessey lost the purse bids for the Corley/Harris fights that US TV would have showcased Witter vs Harris - same with Woods vs Johnson 3 (I know FA didn't win the bids for that one).

The only thing really going in Froch/Pascal's favour is that Abraham isn't a champion at 168 yet.

AA could be a fvcking beast at 168 and if a champ will come into his backyard for a big fight, I doubt he'd turn down a super middle belt.

Abraham can barely make 160, Sturm seems uninterested in unifying, Pavlik wants 2 relatively easy title defences. Abraham - I believe is in a race against time - seems a much better, healthier fighter at super middle and I'm sure he'd want a crack at one of the champs. Perfect time to grab a guy like Abraham. Title fights are worth a lot in Germany and I'm sure Sauerland would pay good money for a champ to come over. Apparently, vibes are that they're not so keen on Kessler due to his jab & strength, narrowing things down somewhat.

Interesting point on Woods, I see what you mean better now. The Johnson fights (at least parts 1 and 3) were great TV fights and might have got some limited appreciation on undercards of bigger fights or main event i.e. ESPN. Still, the market for Woods always looked like the domestic one, IMO his appeal is somewhat limited & his only chance at a "superfight" was Calzaghe.

I just see a lot of potential at super middle. Kessler's massive in Denmark, big in Germany, respected in America; Abraham massive in Germany, has piqued US interest; Froch has drawn a big crowd for Pascal it seems and many will see him on ITV hopefully, etc etc; the Canadians seems to be loving their boxing.

I can see Froch wanting Calzaghe in vain as Witter wanted Hatton. But a lot of ppl could be interested - if all goes well Saturday.

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:Autobarn, stop being such a boorish fanboy and step back and look at the situation.


Why on earth should Taylor, who has beaten Bernard Hopkins twice, bother to fight a dangerous, but complete no name in Carl Frotch?

Taylor's not the only guy out there anyway, there's plenty at 168, an exciting division filled with potential. He isn't going to be The Man at super middle, after desultory win over shot Lacy.

2 disputed decisions vs Hopkins I might add, to go with disputed draw with Wright, and disputed win over welterweight Spinks, a lethargic win over Ouma. This guy should have been a big star, but he pretty much dragged the middleweight division down and even 2 wars with Pavlik couldn't bring any real profile to middleweight. He just took the money and hung onto his belts by a thread.

Yes, Taylor has fought a lot of good fighters, but he's never been particularly interesting and how times did he really get the better of his title opponents? HBO will carry on showing his fights, because they've invested so much already but don 't expect too much.

Yeah, I'm being a bit negative & you might ask what has Froch done? Well, like I say it starts on Sat and hopefully he delivers. If not there's Kessler, Bute, Abraham, Pascal, Balzsay, Dirrell, Ward, and on the way up Danny Jacobs, Darren Sutherland, and in between some hard contenders and fringe guys.

Autobarn wrote:

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:Autobarn, stop being such a boorish fanboy and step back and look at the situation.


Why on earth should Taylor, who has beaten Bernard Hopkins twice, bother to fight a dangerous, but complete no name in Carl Frotch?

Taylor's not the only guy out there anyway, there's plenty at 168, an exciting division filled with potential. He isn't going to be The Man at super middle, after desultory win over shot Lacy.

2 disputed decisions vs Hopkins I might add, to go with disputed draw with Wright, and disputed win over welterweight Spinks, a lethargic win over Ouma. This guy should have been a big star, but he pretty much dragged the middleweight division down and even 2 wars with Pavlik couldn't bring any real profile to middleweight.

Yes, Taylor has fought a lot of good fighters, but he's never been particularly interesting and how times did he really get the better of his title opponents? HBO will carry on showing his fights, because they've invested so much already but don 't expect too much.

Yeah, I'm being a bit negative & you might ask what has Froch done? Well, like I say it starts on Sat and hopefully he delivers. If not there's Kessler, Bute, Abraham, Pascal, Balzsay, Dirrell, Ward, and on the way up Danny Jacobs, Darren Sutherland, and in between some hard contenders and fringe guys.

ughhhh


you just dont get it, do you?

It doesnt matter that he struggled against so and so, got a SD against blah de blah and looked lethargic against whoever


what does matter is that he is considered by promoters and TV companies to be in that top eschelon of fighters, like Hopkins, Mosely, Pavlik, Calzaghe etc (you know the ones) and as such will be looking to either fight another top fighter for a lot of money, or take an easy job like say a Gary Lockett

Froch isnt in that bracket, and beating Pascal doesnt put him in there



Deal with it

Terry D wrote:I thought he boxed well. Sure he didn't go for the KO but then again Lacy has a pretty solid chin. He used good box-clinching and got a much malinged win that actually is better than anything on Froch's, and Pascal's, resume so far.

Not a bad SMW debut, most fighters would have taken on someone shite, Peter Manfredo for example.

I felt he boxed beautifully, especially with short left coutners, over the fist few rounds. Then after the knockdown/slip, Lacy went after him a bit more determined, and in the face of this, Taylor seemed to fade. It was horrible after he went down.

That was a perfect chance for Taylor to make a statement, I was hoping for an explosive, or at least exciting win to maybe hype up a Calzaghe fight. It just turned into a lethargic bore, really.

Maybe he needs to get used to carrying the weight, though.

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:

Autobarn wrote:

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:Autobarn, stop being such a boorish fanboy and step back and look at the situation.


Why on earth should Taylor, who has beaten Bernard Hopkins twice, bother to fight a dangerous, but complete no name in Carl Frotch?

Taylor's not the only guy out there anyway, there's plenty at 168, an exciting division filled with potential. He isn't going to be The Man at super middle, after desultory win over shot Lacy.

2 disputed decisions vs Hopkins I might add, to go with disputed draw with Wright, and disputed win over welterweight Spinks, a lethargic win over Ouma. This guy should have been a big star, but he pretty much dragged the middleweight division down and even 2 wars with Pavlik couldn't bring any real profile to middleweight.

Yes, Taylor has fought a lot of good fighters, but he's never been particularly interesting and how times did he really get the better of his title opponents? HBO will carry on showing his fights, because they've invested so much already but don 't expect too much.

Yeah, I'm being a bit negative & you might ask what has Froch done? Well, like I say it starts on Sat and hopefully he delivers. If not there's Kessler, Bute, Abraham, Pascal, Balzsay, Dirrell, Ward, and on the way up Danny Jacobs, Darren Sutherland, and in between some hard contenders and fringe guys.

ughhhh


you just dont get it, do you?

It doesnt matter that he struggled against so and so, got a SD against blah de blah and looked lethargic against whoever


what does matter is that he is considered by promoters and TV companies to be in that top eschelon of fighters, like Hopkins, Mosely, Pavlik, Calzaghe etc (you know the ones) and as such will be looking to either fight another top fighter for a lot of money, or take an easy job like say a Gary Lockett

Froch isnt in that bracket, and beating Pascal doesnt put him in there



Deal with it

Sigh. Did I ever say he was in that bracket, going by Froch's slow burning (thus far) career? I have been saying, let's see after Saturday, what opportunities there are for an unbeaten puncher with a world title. You're talking about HBO headliners. Obviously, Froch would have to fight someone like Taylor to get on, and if he did and looked good, then that would advance him (& make unification easier). If Taylor fought someone else, which is just as possible, then he obviously will not. However, there isn't just HBO. Showtime are also building a super middle contender, a guy who will want a belt next year. Now, you may recall a guy called Jeff Lacy, who Showtime were building up. What was that champ of 8 years calle,d who made his name beating Lacy. Who got on HBO and got some of those big events that you like so much?

You are closing off all possibilities, when in fact there are possibilities. I'm not saying Froch is going to be a superstar, I am merely showing that there is promise at 168 for some good, hopefully big events that he - or his contemporaries - can feature in. A sellout arena on ITV can be a good event, that could lead to a solid title defence perhaps on Showtime, or maybe with a popular German fighter (and draw good audience and money). The man has star potential, but he has a hard learnign curve in front of him.


Looking back to Taylor, his audiences dwindled but his paydays continued. He didn't provide the action, didn't deliver the goods, yet he still got the big money. HBO have mishandled an Olympian, and I doubt we see Olympans given that kind of treatment in future in America. They keep Taylor because they've already spent so much money on him. It does matter how the fights turn out?, of course it bloody does. If Taylor had delivered, he'd be a fvcking superstar heading into a Calzaghe fight.

Terry D wrote:

Autobarn wrote:Who's been calling Taylor a coward for 3 pages? I think the article that says Taylor is not interested is out of date, because he's said the opposite since then.

DG, page one, the rest of the topic is so boring I skim-read it. Froch is not even a title holder yet. It is a moot point until after Saturday. What if Froch loses? Suddenly pre-fight verbal slams of a former undisputed middlweight Champion will look a bit daft.

Taylor is one of the only fighters who actually takes on quite tough foes one fight after another. Are we supposed to be surprised that he has not shown any interest in a British and European Champion? I would like the fight personally but Froch needs to get this weekend's one out of the way first, or else look a bit of a tit if he loses.

DG said....
......fight the winner of Froch Vs Pascal - what is he afraid of?

Never liked JT as a fighter, pampered fighting all the light middles coming through- yes he beat Hopkins ( not in my book) but he is a pampered fighter.

Froch would KO him Mid rounds...IF he beats Pacal...IF!

Is Taylor afraid?

Also -why was JT fighting Spinks who was knocked out by ZAB JUDAH! and Ouma who was knocked out by Karmazin!

Taylor would jab Froch's head off to an easy decision.

Taylor was negative at middleweight but he's looking more positive at super middleweight. I thought he deserved the Pavlik rematch too or a draw.

Taylor vs Pavlik 2 was a non title SMW fight.

Do you think Lacy is the same fighter post Calzaghe? Sure, we can also say in hindsight that a win over a past it, disinterested, Rob Reid wasn't enough to get him runner up for fighter of 2005... but I am sure being punched about (or should I say slapped about) 1000 times in 36 minutes also has had an affect on his ability.

Terry D wrote:Alternatively Froch could defeat Pascal (not a certainty, although it is probable) and then he can turn to the camera and say, "Hello America, I am Carl Froch, I smoke boots for a living. Jermain Taylor, see this title? It is the WBC title, I smoked some boots for it, and I know intend on smoking your boots. What says you?"

The US audience, all four of them, will likely be having a piss by this point.

If Carl Froch says "boots" that many times on tv people in America will die from laughter.

Anyway. Have we established yet that Taylor is an HBO fighter

I thought he looked great for 4 rds vs Lacy, simply great, and then all was lethargic. That spark doesn't look like it's there. Taylor has kept on getting chances, I believe cos HBO want him to look great. If he'd have got Pavlik out of there, he would probably have been angling for a huge amount of money for a Calzaghe fight - I'll bet Joe would have come down to 168, depleted somewhat, for that fight. The stage does matter, but delivering the goods matters also.

Taylor-Bute - that might take a while, if Bute is contracted to fight a Sauerland fighter Larsen and IF the IBF make him fight Andrade again.

Froch is getting a bit of a raw deal here. True, he hasn't won in world class yet. However, he turned pro late, had a slow burning career. His momentum has been hindered by so many on-off fights - Dodson was on-off, Magee was on-off, Froch built some momentum knocking both of them out & Tatevosyan. Then Inkin did a double pullout likely waiting for Calzaghe to vacate WBO belt (which he did). Then Taylor declined to take WBC title fight for reasons we know. Let's see how he does and the opportunities that arise if he wins.

Regarding Galaxy's upper echelon HBO fighters. Not all of them are chosen ones. First off, Calzaghe and Hopkins won vacant belts (Froch in vacant title fight on Sat), defended quietly for years. THEN they commanded HBO dates, when they were 35 or 36 years of age, because they beat someone popular or interesting (Lacy & Trinidad). Not saying Froch will get into that league - who knows how good he is? - but if he could use a WBC title to fight someone that fights on HBO, and if he beats that person, stands to reason that Froch actually could be on some big stages.

If Taylor/HBO have no interest, there's always Showtime who practically leap every time there's a 50-50-ish, hardcore, "trade fight" for a world title belt.


Am I being too optimistic? - Maybe, maybe not. But here's an interesting angle: Golden Boy Promotions. They were supposed to have some deal with Hennessy. As we saw, GBP weren't too bothered about Witter & Eastman. However, Froch looks a bit more marketable than those 2 stablemates (hardly big draws in the UK never mind anywhere else). Consider - GBP have wanted a middle/super middle champ ever since Hopkins lost to Taylor (see Ikeke-Abraham, Andrade-Grant, Andrade-Kessler, Andrade-Bute). If Froch wins the WBC title, Golden Boy might be interested and who do you go to to get on HBO The Heart & Soul of Boxing

Autobarn wrote:Anyway. Have we established yet that Taylor is an HBO fighter

I thought he looked great for 4 rds vs Lacy, simply great, and then all was lethargic. That spark doesn't look like it's there. Taylor has kept on getting chances, I believe cos HBO want him to look great. If he'd have got Pavlik out of there, he would probably have been angling for a huge amount of money for a Calzaghe fight - I'll bet Joe would have come down to 168, depleted somewhat, for that fight. The stage does matter, but delivering the goods matters also.

Taylor-Bute - that might take a while, if Bute is contracted to fight a Sauerland fighter Larsen and IF the IBF make him fight Andrade again.

Froch is getting a bit of a raw deal here. True, he hasn't won in world class yet. However, he turned pro late, had a slow burning career. His momentum has been hindered by so many on-off fights - Dodson was on-off, Magee was on-off, Froch built some momentum knocking both of them out & Tatevosyan. Then Inkin did a double pullout likely waiting for Calzaghe to vacate WBO belt (which he did). Then Taylor declined to take WBC title fight for reasons we know. Let's see how he does and the opportunities that arise if he wins.

Andrade is fighting Tsypko for the mandatory title shot. Bute will have to fight Andrade in 09 or he will get stripped.

But he has said many times that he wants to fight Andrade again so that shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for the info. Looks like the IBF title will be busy. If Bute has to fight Larsen and Andrade/Tsypko next year.

Diddly Diddly Diddly!

You still have that JT poster in your bedroom

I think JT is a weak chinned fighter hence all the Welterweights moving up and Light Middles.

Froch would SHB ( Smoke his boots!)

DG. wrote:Diddly Diddly Diddly!

You still have that JT poster in your bedroom

I think HAGLER is a weak chinned fighter hence all the Welterweights moving up and Light Middles.

Froch would SHB ( Smoke his boots!)

FIXED, Sounds stupid doesnt it

Just seemed a perfect fight to make him look good, did "Left Hook-less" Lacy. So many times I've got up for Taylor fights only to feel shortchanged. The comp is often very good, but the performances indecisive. It must be harder for a guy who was a millionaire before turning pro, to have the hunger and the killer instinct! I always thought it was the weight that was stopping him going that extra mile at middle. Felt that he would be the proverbial bigger, stronger, faster, more powerful, more energetic @ 168 - look sensational v Lacy, and maybe get something really big.

I'll give JT a pass, because he may need to get used to carrying 168. Maybe he should come in around 165, for speed. Maybe he's not used to the stronger (albeit slower) opposition. Who knows. If nothing big turns up, he's WBC mandatory and he's held every other belt at middle so it won't be hard to get ranked for the other champs.

How different things would have been if he'd got Pavlik out of there. He seemed to gain something in exciting defeat twice, but then Pavlik went and got greedy, took the payday, any payday, and got humiliated.