BoxRec

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What we can say without doubt - is that until the last three years of his career - Calzaghe failed to face his peers, and the best of the divisions from 160-175, now you can blame who you want for that, but at some point you have to question Calzaghe's own desire to face the best.

I think Calzaghe has a pathological fear of losing, he is always going on about being beaten when he was an amateur - and the fact he pulled out against Johnson 3 times, and wanted to pull out against Lacy and Kessler before he was talked into them by his dad, indicates someone who lacks confidence until they actually get between the ropes.

Terry D wrote:Not bringing up Tocker would be like having a Top Ten of cheesy songs and missing out 'The Birdie Song'. How many crap wins were there for each of the good ones? How many absolutely dire Sky Joe Calzaghe nights? Lots of them.

As for Hatton-Hutchinson, this is about Calzaghe. Tocker may have been a sub but to be brutally honest Joe had scheduled fights against pants opposition year in and year out. Re-read my posts so far. You miss every point.

As for Hatton, what is wrong? You brought in Joe and Hopkins to bolster your argument, and failed, now you are bringing in Hatton, what next?

The win over Reid was razor tight also, why did Joe never give him a rematch? They don't do rematches, aside from Veit, but he only did that to keep his prestigious WBO title, why fight Reid? For pride maybe. For the fans, the fight was good, why not repeat it, you can now say it was everyone else's fault but Joe's but the one consistent factor in Joe's career has been the man himself.

I am playing fantasy boxing? You are the guy bringing every other boxer into the argument, that is hardly going off the facts is it? The facts show that Joe had a terrible career for a long period. He attempted to pull out of every major fight that he had signed. Was persuaded to fight Lacy by his dad. Then fought two terrible matches before Kessler, and then took on two old men, men that he should have fought years ago, but had neither the profile or inclination to take on (with the two being linked).

You also fail to understand the point. I said he had options to renegotiate his SN contracts, he went with them after being with Duff, why not renegotiate one when he was on the one hand bragging about his SMW dominance (and down talking Ottke) whilst at the same time bemoaning the lack of a big fight? Is it purely because he was only interested in money, as you claim? In that case he was his own worst enemy and is to blame for not getting the big fights, fights that would have made him money should he have won them.

Hatton went to the USA after a big win, he demanded one of the best fighters in the world, Kostay, and got him, crucially at home, crucially because, unlike Joe, he had a fan following and public appeal. Joe had neither, and lacked the personality outside the ring to build them, add that to his in-ring inability to take on the best challengers and you have a question of necessity. Hatton did not need to go to the USA to get his big fight, he could have sat on the Tszyu win for 10 more fights.

The goal for Hatton, as far as I could see in conversations around the time (and I did not work for any promoter so I have no reason to lie) focussed on getting Floyd into the ring, for decent money yes, but getting him was the main focus.

Just look at the fights. Floyd goes to welter. So they test the waters. Floyd goes to light middle, so they duck back down and grab a title to set-up the Castillo fight. He beats Castillo in Floyd's hometown and next thing you know he gets Floyd. They seemed to build to it.

Yes, Hobson offered a lot of money, and Hatton took it, but the focus (on the training and fighting side certainly) was to get Floyd, the best fighter in the world, to fight. In the meantime he made money, he also took on two men, Tszyu and Floyd, who were far tougher, and closer to their best, than the men Joe has fought. Or ever will fight.

Captain Hook wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What we can say without doubt - is that until the last three years of his career - Calzaghe failed to face his peers, and the best of the divisions from 160-175, now you can blame who you want for that, but at some point you have to question Calzaghe's own desire to face the best.

I think Calzaghe has a pathological fear of losing, he is always going on about being beaten when he was an amateur - and the fact he pulled out against Johnson 3 times, and wanted to pull out against Lacy and Kessler before he was talked into them by his dad, indicates someone who lacks confidence until they actually get between the ropes.

what an absolute load of horse shit! Can you back up that he wanted to pull out v Kessler and Lacy?

Captain Hook wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What we can say without doubt - is that until the last three years of his career - Calzaghe failed to face his peers, and the best of the divisions from 160-175, now you can blame who you want for that, but at some point you have to question Calzaghe's own desire to face the best.

I think Calzaghe has a pathological fear of losing, he is always going on about being beaten when he was an amateur - and the fact he pulled out against Johnson 3 times, and wanted to pull out against Lacy and Kessler before he was talked into them by his dad, indicates someone who lacks confidence until they actually get between the ropes.

what an absolute load of horse shit! Can you back up that he wanted to pull out v Kessler and Lacy?

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Captain Hook wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What we can say without doubt - is that until the last three years of his career - Calzaghe failed to face his peers, and the best of the divisions from 160-175, now you can blame who you want for that, but at some point you have to question Calzaghe's own desire to face the best.

I think Calzaghe has a pathological fear of losing, he is always going on about being beaten when he was an amateur - and the fact he pulled out against Johnson 3 times, and wanted to pull out against Lacy and Kessler before he was talked into them by his dad, indicates someone who lacks confidence until they actually get between the ropes.

what an absolute load of horse shit! Can you back up that he wanted to pull out v Kessler and Lacy?

Calzaghe himself said in an interview, that his dad had to talk him into goint through with both fights, go and look for yourself, they are in the public domain - so I guess Jo himself must be full of shit given that he said it.

gobbles wrote:

Terry D wrote:Not bringing up Tocker would be like having a Top Ten of cheesy songs and missing out 'The Birdie Song'. How many crap wins were there for each of the good ones? How many absolutely dire Sky Joe Calzaghe nights? Lots of them.

As for Hatton-Hutchinson, this is about Calzaghe. Tocker may have been a sub but to be brutally honest Joe had scheduled fights against pants opposition year in and year out. Re-read my posts so far. You miss every point.

As for Hatton, what is wrong? You brought in Joe and Hopkins to bolster your argument, and failed, now you are bringing in Hatton, what next?

The win over Reid was razor tight also, why did Joe never give him a rematch? They don't do rematches, aside from Veit, but he only did that to keep his prestigious WBO title, why fight Reid? For pride maybe. For the fans, the fight was good, why not repeat it, you can now say it was everyone else's fault but Joe's but the one consistent factor in Joe's career has been the man himself.

I am playing fantasy boxing? You are the guy bringing every other boxer into the argument, that is hardly going off the facts is it? The facts show that Joe had a terrible career for a long period. He attempted to pull out of every major fight that he had signed. Was persuaded to fight Lacy by his dad. Then fought two terrible matches before Kessler, and then took on two old men, men that he should have fought years ago, but had neither the profile or inclination to take on (with the two being linked).

You also fail to understand the point. I said he had options to renegotiate his SN contracts, he went with them after being with Duff, why not renegotiate one when he was on the one hand bragging about his SMW dominance (and down talking Ottke) whilst at the same time bemoaning the lack of a big fight? Is it purely because he was only interested in money, as you claim? In that case he was his own worst enemy and is to blame for not getting the big fights, fights that would have made him money should he have won them.

Hatton went to the USA after a big win, he demanded one of the best fighters in the world, Kostay, and got him, crucially at home, crucially because, unlike Joe, he had a fan following and public appeal. Joe had neither, and lacked the personality outside the ring to build them, add that to his in-ring inability to take on the best challengers and you have a question of necessity. Hatton did not need to go to the USA to get his big fight, he could have sat on the Tszyu win for 10 more fights.

The goal for Hatton, as far as I could see in conversations around the time (and I did not work for any promoter so I have no reason to lie) focussed on getting Floyd into the ring, for decent money yes, but getting him was the main focus.

Just look at the fights. Floyd goes to welter. So they test the waters. Floyd goes to light middle, so they duck back down and grab a title to set-up the Castillo fight. He beats Castillo in Floyd's hometown and next thing you know he gets Floyd. They seemed to build to it.

Yes, Hobson offered a lot of money, and Hatton took it, but the focus (on the training and fighting side certainly) was to get Floyd, the best fighter in the world, to fight. In the meantime he made money, he also took on two men, Tszyu and Floyd, who were far tougher, and closer to their best, than the men Joe has fought. Or ever will fight.

Reid didn't get the rematch because he lost to Silvio Blanco in his next fight.

Hatton didn't test the welters because they were after Mayweather, the took the Collazo match because Lazcano pulled out injured and he was the only guy they could get for the money available. The thing was a disaster from start to finish, done at 7 weeks notice. The match was only mooted the week of Calzaghe-Lacy which was the start of March for a fight in May and Hatton was already deep in training to make light-welter.
How do I know that? I spoke to Hatton that week and he told me.
If you can't see the link between Hatton and Calzaghe's careers, you have no idea of the broader picture of British boxing over the past ten years.
The reality is the sport was on the fringes until after Amir Khan went to the Athens Olympics. It was only after meeting Gareth Williams (who was Khan's lawyer at the time) at the Hatton-Olivera fight that Ray Hatton started to make bigger demands, but by then the Tszyu fight was already on because Hatton had won an IBF eliminator (for which only bout 5,000 paid to get in). It was also after Hatton made the break that Calzaghe saw the possibilities.
Calzaghe demanded Kessler when Warren wanted Clinton Woods, he got Kessler.
It's easy planning other people's careers from your laptop with a rankings list, but the reality of planning your own life and career when you are not presented with other options is different.
The reality is that Calzaghe was a fringe name in the US and no other champions would fight him because there was not enough money in it for a potential beating.
Maybe I am looking at things with hindsight and putting a positive spin on it, but you are certainly doing the opposite.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:He never said he was scared of fighting, he said that he had doubts because of injuries and tried to get the fights postponed or cancelled. I don't have the link, like I said, they are in the public domain, one of them was an interview before the Hopkins fight, I'm pretty sure it was a TV interview, and I can remember being somewhat taken aback by Joe's statement.

I said that Calzaghe's persona in my opinion, indicates a pathological fear of losing - no bad thing - after all, you don't want a fighter who has no fear of losing at all - but I think it has prevented taking steps in his career earlier which could have made him a bigger star - when he preferred to stay in his comfort zone - hell, what boxer doesn't, but the fighters held in the highest regard (Leonard and Duran for instance) faced off against their biggest bogeymen.

Terry D wrote:Nope, I actually think Urango is not that bad. Hatton's fights post-Tszyu were a means to an end, he wanted to fight Floyd. He went away, fought the fights required, such as moving up (to follow Floyd) to fight Collazo, and went for the P4P #1 fighter when Floyd was in his prime, and he also had the sense to realise that he had to go to Floyd..

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

Terry D wrote:Nope, I actually think Urango is not that bad. Hatton's fights post-Tszyu were a means to an end, he wanted to fight Floyd. He went away, fought the fights required, such as moving up (to follow Floyd) to fight Collazo, and went for the P4P #1 fighter when Floyd was in his prime, and he also had the sense to realise that he had to go to Floyd..

Umm 'a means to an end', meaning a mayweather fight? The same fight he was offered in 2004, November 2005, through 2006? It wasn't like the post-Tyszu's fights set up a Mayweather fight, the fight was on a silver plater way before, you could argue it built it up but then again it very nearly never happened

Captain Hook wrote:Like you say, fear of losing is no bad thing.

Terry D wrote:Not bringing up Tocker would be like having a Top Ten of cheesy songs and missing out 'The Birdie Song'. How many crap wins were there for each of the good ones? How many absolutely dire Sky Joe Calzaghe nights? Lots of them.

As for Hatton-Hutchinson, this is about Calzaghe. Tocker may have been a sub but to be brutally honest Joe had scheduled fights against pants opposition year in and year out. Re-read my posts so far. You miss every point.

As for Hatton, what is wrong? You brought in Joe and Hopkins to bolster your argument, and failed, now you are bringing in Hatton, what next?

The win over Reid was razor tight also, why did Joe never give him a rematch? They don't do rematches, aside from Veit, but he only did that to keep his prestigious WBO title, why fight Reid? For pride maybe. For the fans, the fight was good, why not repeat it, you can now say it was everyone else's fault but Joe's but the one consistent factor in Joe's career has been the man himself.

I am playing fantasy boxing? You are the guy bringing every other boxer into the argument, that is hardly going off the facts is it? The facts show that Joe had a terrible career for a long period. He attempted to pull out of every major fight that he had signed. Was persuaded to fight Lacy by his dad. Then fought two terrible matches before Kessler, and then took on two old men, men that he should have fought years ago, but had neither the profile or inclination to take on (with the two being linked).

You also fail to understand the point. I said he had options to renegotiate his SN contracts, he went with them after being with Duff, why not renegotiate one when he was on the one hand bragging about his SMW dominance (and down talking Ottke) whilst at the same time bemoaning the lack of a big fight? Is it purely because he was only interested in money, as you claim? In that case he was his own worst enemy and is to blame for not getting the big fights, fights that would have made him money should he have won them.

Hatton went to the USA after a big win, he demanded one of the best fighters in the world, Kostay, and got him, crucially at home, crucially because, unlike Joe, he had a fan following and public appeal. Joe had neither, and lacked the personality outside the ring to build them, add that to his in-ring inability to take on the best challengers and you have a question of necessity. Hatton did not need to go to the USA to get his big fight, he could have sat on the Tszyu win for 10 more fights.

The goal for Hatton, as far as I could see in conversations around the time (and I did not work for any promoter so I have no reason to lie) focussed on getting Floyd into the ring, for decent money yes, but getting him was the main focus.

Just look at the fights. Floyd goes to welter. So they test the waters. Floyd goes to light middle, so they duck back down and grab a title to set-up the Castillo fight. He beats Castillo in Floyd's hometown and next thing you know he gets Floyd. They seemed to build to it.

Yes, Hobson offered a lot of money, and Hatton took it, but the focus (on the training and fighting side certainly) was to get Floyd, the best fighter in the world, to fight. In the meantime he made money, he also took on two men, Tszyu and Floyd, who were far tougher, and closer to their best, than the men Joe has fought. Or ever will fight.

fist wrote:Didnt Otke fight Pudwell? Every fighter has crap names on their resume. It doesnt negate their talent and certainly doesnt negate achievements - if you win a title, you win a title. And Calzaghe did the lot. Every belt.

banjo wrote:

fist wrote:Didnt Otke fight Pudwell? Every fighter has crap names on their resume. It doesnt negate their talent and certainly doesnt negate achievements - if you win a title, you win a title. And Calzaghe did the lot. Every belt.

Very true and while Joe did face diabolical opposition and fighters who were past their best you only have to look at Hopkins record and pick out some of the tosh and has-beens on there, Lipsey, Hakkar, Daniels, Allen, Frank, James etc.

Jones has fought some crap as well, as did Tyson, Lewis, Hagler, Duran, Benn, Eubank, McCallum and many others.

observer1 wrote:

banjo wrote:

fist wrote:Didnt Otke fight Pudwell? Every fighter has crap names on their resume. It doesnt negate their talent and certainly doesnt negate achievements - if you win a title, you win a title. And Calzaghe did the lot. Every belt.

Very true and while Joe did face diabolical opposition and fighters who were past their best you only have to look at Hopkins record and pick out some of the tosh and has-beens on there, Lipsey, Hakkar, Daniels, Allen, Frank, James etc.

Jones has fought some crap as well, as did Tyson, Lewis, Hagler, Duran, Benn, Eubank, McCallum and many others.

Yes but only only difference is the 'lesser' opponents on Hopkins' and RJJ's resume's would be considered the best opponenets on Calzaghe's..

observer1 wrote:

banjo wrote:

fist wrote:Didnt Otke fight Pudwell? Every fighter has crap names on their resume. It doesnt negate their talent and certainly doesnt negate achievements - if you win a title, you win a title. And Calzaghe did the lot. Every belt.

Very true and while Joe did face diabolical opposition and fighters who were past their best you only have to look at Hopkins record and pick out some of the tosh and has-beens on there, Lipsey, Hakkar, Daniels, Allen, Frank, James etc.

Jones has fought some crap as well, as did Tyson, Lewis, Hagler, Duran, Benn, Eubank, McCallum and many others.

Yes but only only difference is the 'lesser' opponents on Hopkins' and RJJ's resume's would be considered the best opponenets on Calzaghe's..

fist wrote:

Terry D wrote:Not bringing up Tocker would be like having a Top Ten of cheesy songs and missing out 'The Birdie Song'. How many crap wins were there for each of the good ones? How many absolutely dire Sky Joe Calzaghe nights? Lots of them.

As for Hatton-Hutchinson, this is about Calzaghe. Tocker may have been a sub but to be brutally honest Joe had scheduled fights against pants opposition year in and year out. Re-read my posts so far. You miss every point.

As for Hatton, what is wrong? You brought in Joe and Hopkins to bolster your argument, and failed, now you are bringing in Hatton, what next?

The win over Reid was razor tight also, why did Joe never give him a rematch? They don't do rematches, aside from Veit, but he only did that to keep his prestigious WBO title, why fight Reid? For pride maybe. For the fans, the fight was good, why not repeat it, you can now say it was everyone else's fault but Joe's but the one consistent factor in Joe's career has been the man himself.

I am playing fantasy boxing? You are the guy bringing every other boxer into the argument, that is hardly going off the facts is it? The facts show that Joe had a terrible career for a long period. He attempted to pull out of every major fight that he had signed. Was persuaded to fight Lacy by his dad. Then fought two terrible matches before Kessler, and then took on two old men, men that he should have fought years ago, but had neither the profile or inclination to take on (with the two being linked).

You also fail to understand the point. I said he had options to renegotiate his SN contracts, he went with them after being with Duff, why not renegotiate one when he was on the one hand bragging about his SMW dominance (and down talking Ottke) whilst at the same time bemoaning the lack of a big fight? Is it purely because he was only interested in money, as you claim? In that case he was his own worst enemy and is to blame for not getting the big fights, fights that would have made him money should he have won them.

Hatton went to the USA after a big win, he demanded one of the best fighters in the world, Kostay, and got him, crucially at home, crucially because, unlike Joe, he had a fan following and public appeal. Joe had neither, and lacked the personality outside the ring to build them, add that to his in-ring inability to take on the best challengers and you have a question of necessity. Hatton did not need to go to the USA to get his big fight, he could have sat on the Tszyu win for 10 more fights.

The goal for Hatton, as far as I could see in conversations around the time (and I did not work for any promoter so I have no reason to lie) focussed on getting Floyd into the ring, for decent money yes, but getting him was the main focus.

Just look at the fights. Floyd goes to welter. So they test the waters. Floyd goes to light middle, so they duck back down and grab a title to set-up the Castillo fight. He beats Castillo in Floyd's hometown and next thing you know he gets Floyd. They seemed to build to it.

Yes, Hobson offered a lot of money, and Hatton took it, but the focus (on the training and fighting side certainly) was to get Floyd, the best fighter in the world, to fight. In the meantime he made money, he also took on two men, Tszyu and Floyd, who were far tougher, and closer to their best, than the men Joe has fought. Or ever will fight.

Didnt Otke fight Pudwell? Every fighter has crap names on their resume. It doesnt negate their talent and certainly doesnt negate achievements - if you win a title, you win a title. And Calzaghe did the lot. Every belt.

gobbles wrote:
Reid didn't get the rematch because he lost to Silvio Blanco in his next fight.

.

stujones wrote:There is no way Joe was injured for the 3 Johnson pull outs - one was cause of personal problems.

Hopkins, Jones, Toney, Simon, Ottke, Beyer, Larsen, Echols, Grant, Catley - all would have been great fights.