BoxRec

Now it's your turn, BRR, to post a photo showing Young in a similar position in this fight.

We're waiting...

I thought the knockdown against Foreman by Young was an official knockdown. Am I wrong?

klompton wrote:I thought the knockdown against Foreman by Young was an official knockdown. Am I wrong?

- A lost puppy has successfully whined enough to redirect the thread regarding the mix up of fight footage of Burn/Johnson.

Hard to know about Foreman/Young since the boxrec results don't indicate any data has been verified. Could be an age of the bout issue. At any rate, the data keeps changing. The ref almost got run over by George before he could even start the count. Cosell insisted it wasn't a KD, but supposedly a judge verified that it was. Technically by the slowmo footage it seemed legit, but it was such a flash and a shock that many thought it a push/pull thing.

What Foreman/Young has to do with the results of Burns/Johnson being edited from TKO to points win probably what you should be asking.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

klompton wrote:I thought the knockdown against Foreman by Young was an official knockdown. Am I wrong?

- A lost puppy has successfully whined enough to redirect the thread regarding the mix up of fight footage of Burn/Johnson.

Hard to know about Foreman/Young since the boxrec results don't indicate any data has been verified. Could be an age of the bout issue. At any rate, the data keeps changing. The ref almost got run over by George before he could even start the count. Cosell insisted it wasn't a KD, but supposedly a judge verified that it was. Technically by the slowmo footage it seemed legit, but it was such a flash and a shock that many thought it a push/pull thing.

What Foreman/Young has to do with the results of Burns/Johnson being edited from TKO to points win probably what you should be asking.

Are you fornicating kidding me??? I rewatched this again just a few minutes ago and if you think this wasnt a KD you are nuts. The referee sends Young to a neutral corner, picks up the count from the timekeeper, and gives Foreman a standing eight after Foreman was down. If that isnt a knockdown I dont know what is...

klompton wrote: I rewatched this again just a few minutes ago and if you think this wasnt a KD you are nuts. .

- Never said it was or wasn't, only that it was doubted in the moment on the broadcast.

Nor can I see it's been verified as per a commission report as you can read about in my comments. Actions of a ref or judges are sometimes overruled. Why don't we talk about the legitimacy of Hagler/Rodan KD or Ali/Wepner on this thread next if you want to go down that path.

Or we can do The Long Count.

Hagler/Roldan, Ali/Wepner, and the long count were all legitimately counted as knockdowns by the referee. If you cant show that a commission overrruled it, which I have NEVER heard, then why even say something so nonsensical? They were knockdowns, plain and simple.

klompton wrote:Hagler/Roldan, Ali/Wepner, and the long count were all legitimately counted as knockdowns by the referee. If you cant show that a commission overrruled it, which I have NEVER heard, then why even say something so nonsensical? They were knockdowns, plain and simple.

- You're not paying attention. Commissions pretty much operate much like Czars and Kings operate. They can overrule whatever they want for whatever reason they give.

Boxrec indicates the Roldan/ Hagler results have not been confirmed. Commish overrule the results of fights all the time. WBC decided not to award Lorenzo it's title after the controversial Sota results in the first fight, officially verified per boxrec.

Cali overruled Toney's TKO over Rahman to ND, confirmed. Yet Toney's win over Batchelder remains in spite of Cali suspending Toney for 6 months and Batchelder for one year for the same offense of a positive steroid test, confirmed. Toney's win over Ruiz changed to NC remains unconfirmed officially. If "confirmed" that means the judges decisions would've been overruled. Toney was credited with a KD in that fight, so was that also overruled?

We know Ruiz goes on to defend his belt against Valuev because that was "confirmed." Heck if I know how these people operate other than they do so with impugnity using moving goalposts. WBA announced eons ago it was looking into the Valuev/Holyfield results and would issue a report. Nada. They said they would issue a report on the Chagaev/Valuev fiasco in 3 days. On day 3 they announced they would take an additional few days to sort through conflicting medical data. Nada.

Since the discussion the Burns/Johnson final round has been successfully hijacked into a discussion of other KDs, allow me to offer up Hearns/Leonard I as case in point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x-OOdT0 ... annel_page

Midway through the 13th Leonard cracks Hearns good causing a buckle. He jumps all over Tommy, knocking him into the ropes, no KD called by Pearlman. He throws a right that Hearns attempts to duck and then a left hook that Hearns is pulling back from as he falls into the ropes landing with his butt on the ring apron.

At first Pearlman looks like he will issue a count, but instead motions Hearns to get up. Near the end of the round, same deal with Hearns on the ropes in dire straits but now his butt is resting on the ropes. Pearlman issues a count this time.

Then the final round with Hearns still getting knocked about, but upright. No count given, just the fight stopped. No official confirmation on any of this per boxrec.

Of course I see no commish ruling on the Johnson/Burns result either, but in this case, Boxrec's "commish" edited the results................... 8)

You sound like a lunatic. By your logic Lennox Lewis may not have knocked out Tyson because some shadowy commission somewhere may have ruled that the knockout never occurred. Your reasoning is ridiculous. "Then the final round with Hearns still getting knocked about, but upright. No count given, just the fight stopped. No official confirmation on any of this per boxrec." Are you blind? If not, are you stupid? Do you need an officially sanctioned commission report to explain to you what your eyes are obviously not witnessing? How you can watch fights like Foreman-Young, Hagler-Roldan, Ali-Wepner, and Hearns-Leonard 1 and not clearly understand what is taking place without an official holding your hand through the proceedings is almost hilarious if it werent sad. Maybe boxing, a sport where two men are essentially punching each other in the head, is too complex for you. Ever think about following something a little more simple? Horseshoes? And by the way, there was no commission ruling on Johnson-Burns because there was no commission over seeing that fight. The films is very incomplete, and it was held in what was held in what many people felt was essentially a boxing backwater at the time. This is why the nature of that fights conclusion changes periodically because today, 91 years after the events, we dont really have a clear understanding of exactly how to call the conclusion of the fight. The film doesnt show it (although many people today still think it does thanks to BigFights) and newspaper accounts differ as to whether it should be called a TKO or a 14 round decision as per agreements signed before the fight. But you, who seem mystified with the way boxing plays out, knows better than anyone else how this should be annotated!? You are acting as if we live in this black and white world and its not.

It's pretty clear to me that it's a points win for Johnson, per the terms of the contract signed by the principals. The contract said that if the police stopped the fight, the referee would announce the winner on points. The police stopped the fight, and McIntosh declared Johnson the winner. No pun intended, but the outcome of this fight is pretty much black and white to me.

klompton wrote:You sound like a lunatic. .

- Oh, but the sound and the fury of someone losing their rag cannot be matched.

There are still folks on this thread in denial that Burns/Johnson is now a points win or upset over other KDs others have mentioned or otherwise questioned in the past.

That wouldn't be me.

I don't know why you fellas waste your time with our latest joker in the pack.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I don't know why you fellas waste your time with our latest joker in the pack.

Come on, GI. He's a great laugh.

The wriggling and writhing he goes through trying to cover his many mistakes is a joy to behold.

Collins2000 wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I don't know why you fellas waste your time with our latest joker in the pack.

Come on, GI. He's a great laugh.

The wriggling and writhing he goes through trying to cover his many mistakes is a joy to behold.

But it's kind of unnerving 'discussing' with someone who may actually be serious about the ridiculous things he comes out with.

I'm telling you i won't be surprised if most of the posters on this forum think he is being sarcastic or is a spoof or something. This guy man...

Search out the documentary called Jack Johnson - Unforgivable Blackness

Today (December.26th)marks the 101st anniversary of Jack Johnson winning the HW Championship.
I guess this perhaps is the most footage extant of the Johnson/Tommy Burns bout, about 10 minutes of film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHqelTqa0Iw

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

klompton wrote: I rewatched this again just a few minutes ago and if you think this wasnt a KD you are nuts. .

- Never said it was or wasn't, only that it was doubted in the moment on the broadcast.

Clueless Howard CoSELL was selling the media line on Young.

Young landed eight right hands in a row to knock Foreman down.
CoSELL immediately said, "I didn't see any punch."

No doubt that was true for CoSELL. He didn't have a clue what was going on right in front of his nose.

Later another disgusting media shill in the form of Larry Merchant echoed CoSELL's EXACT WORDS when a fat, totally out of shape Jimmy Young knocked out a younger, in shape Wendell Bailey after opening up and breaking Bailey in half with a series of body shots and then finishing him with a series of combination left hook/right hands to the head.

Insect Larry Merchant immediately spoke up and said, "I didn't see any punch."

Referee Billy Graham (former welterweight who fought Kid Gavilan for the title) apparently did SEE something and stopped the fight.
Bailey lurched away to his corner, relieved to be free from further punishment.

Notice how quickly both media shills reacted when the crap they had been programmed to say was contradicted by what was going on in the real world.

The line for the clueless 'media' had Young categorized as a fighter who 'couldn't punch.'

"Nobody who fought me ever said that," Young said.

What many fail to realize is, following the bout, Burns went back home to Canada, while Johnson secretly held himself up in a hospital in Sydney because of the broken ribs Burns inflicted on him. Burns is vastly under-rated; losing to an ATG like Johnson is nothing to be ashamed about, he held his own against Johnson. Whats so stupid is that Burns was never 'forgiven' for losing to a black man, but they forgave Jeffries, Ketchell, Flynn, and others in their attempts in doing so.

Collins2000 wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:Young appears to have touched the canvas with his gloves in the 7th in a similar fashion George did in the 12th. Neither listed as an official KD on boxrec though both have been widely discussed as KDs regarding the merits of the fight.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Collins2000 wrote: Remind me, numpty, how many times was it that Foreman had Jimmy Young on the deck?

- Want your little puppy nose rubbed in it for the umpteeth time, eh collie?

Young appears to have touched the canvas with his gloves in the 7th in a similar fashion George did in the 12th. Neither listed as an official KD on boxrec though both have been widely discussed as KDs regarding the merits of the fight.

Young never touched the canvas with his gloves in the 7th round. He stayed up and came back in the same round to stagger Foreman.

The false trashing of Jimmy Young never ends.

lets get back to the topic shall we?

Adamj1987 wrote:lets get back to the topic shall we?

That's his m.o.

This thread became off topic at a certain point,but I bumped it up again due to the fact,some of the same questions
get asked about every anniversary of the fight.

Brutu wrote: ↑17 Jan 2009, 19:10

klompton wrote:The statement that the film was stopped by police is a myth. The scene that is always shown as burns taking punishment and the film stopping in mid fall for burns is actually from an earlier point in the fight and burns doesnt even go down, even though he looks like he is about to. If you have you have the complete footage that exists (which is not the whole film) you can see this quite clearly.

Is it possible we have been mistaken all these years as to the footage of the fight when allegedly the camera was stopped in the fourteenth round?
Check this out from Jack Johnson's MY LIFE AND BATTLES(page 73),


"When the bell for the thirteenth round rang.
I told myself it was time to finish things,
"So I unleashed such a shower of blows that Tommy was staggering like a drunkard when the bell rang".

Regarding the Fourteenth round,
"At the bell,I rushed at my opponent.He backed up prudently,but I chased after him and landed a terrific right hand to his head.He fell on the ground and stayed there until the count of eight.Then he got back up on wobbly legs".

Has anyone here seen a complete 3 minute round of this fight?
Can you tell for sure from which rounds the may be from,such round card or clock in the background?


Does the fight footage sound to you like it may actually be from the thirteenth round?

Man, that sure sounds interesting.
So what you seem to be suggesting is that surviving film footage of the fight being 'stopped" in the 14th round
with the dramatic 'Freeze-Frame" is actually film footage takin from the 13th round.
Is that what you are suggesting ?
.

Its neither the 13th or the 14th rd. All that is known to exist of this fight is rds 6-10. The footage described as the final rd in all the documentaries etc is actually rd 7. The cameras were never stopped in rd 14. The complete fight was filmed and shown all over the world. In the footage edited to look like rd 14 Burns doesnt even go down, despite the freeze fame and the narrator saying he does. He actually stays upright. The round continues until the bell at which time the fighters return to their corners and a man in the audience holds up a sign with an “8” on it signifying the next rd. Below are stills from the complete sequence showing Burns staying upright.

https://flic.kr/p/2bh2YZw

klompton wrote: ↑23 Sep 2018, 10:08 Its neither the 13th or the 14th rd. All that is known to exist of this fight is rds 6-10. The footage described as the final rd in all the documentaries etc is actually rd 7. The cameras were never stopped in rd 14. The complete fight was filmed and shown all over the world. In the footage edited to look like rd 14 Burns doesnt even go down, despite the freeze fame and the narrator saying he does. He actually stays upright. The round continues until the bell at which time the fighters return to their corners and a man in the audience holds up a sign with an “8” on it signifying the next rd. Below are stills from the complete sequence showing Burns staying upright.

https://flic.kr/p/2bh2YZw

Intersting. When did round 14 among others become lost in modern times? ESPN Classic will have you believe the films were stopped to prevent the public seeing Johnson declared the winner.

When I look at the film, Burns is just tiny in there, and 168 pounds way to light to lock up with Johnson. He was outclassed for sure, but fought with a poor strategy.