BoxRec

Seamus wrote:I'm guessing via the process of elimination, that you're Miguel Mayan ?

Mike Mayan was a boxer from LA and turned pro in 1971.

Zelley wrote:

Seamus wrote:I'm guessing via the process of elimination, that you're Miguel Mayan ?

Mike Mayan was a boxer from LA and turned pro in 1971.

Mayan was from San Diego and not from L.A., he lost more fight then he won.

There is film of both Benny Leonard and Joe Gans but of course its mostly of them them in the twilight of there career.

Now think Clay or Ali if you like, Imagine if the only film on Ali we had was about two or three of him at the end of his career and it was filmed with a hand wound camera which keeps changing the speeds all the time during the filming. We would all be saying "Hell how can anyone say he was an elite fighter" He cant fight inside, all he does is pull the others guys head down i am surprised the ref lets him get away with it. Where is this blinding speed that you old timers talk about. Well that's how i imagine a lot of modern fans see guys like Langford, Gans, Leonard and the like.

My pick of the one that stands out is Benny Leonard so i give my top spot to him. In case some have forgot check out his career and reports of what other fighters thought who tried to beat him. I am split between the number 2 and number 3 as i think a Duran v Joe Gans fight is a 50 - 50 pick. Of course on a given night i agree the next three down could probably win at least one out of three. You only have to have over trained and left the fight in the gym or have a personal problem or not quite 100% and your in trouble against many we don't see as top 5.

theone wrote:

Whitaker beat at 135? Ramirez, Haugan, and Nelson were all very good fighters but not in the class of the guys the aformentioned were fighting and beating

Please elaborate. For instance, Duran fought alot more people but most of them were just record padding with horrible records.
His best comp at lightweight was Buchanan who is at least as great as Nelson. Who else did Duran beat at lightweight that was so much better than those three?

DeJesus?

Senya13 wrote:First some of the fights you list for Williams at lightweight, were actually above that limit. Second, I'll take lightweights of 1895-1910 era over any other era you choose.
Joe Gans, Packey McFarland, Kid Lavigne, Young Griffo, Frank Erne, Jimmy Britt, Freddie Welsh, Ad Wolgast, Battling Nelson, Danny Duane, New York Jack O'Brien, Joe Walcott (could still make LW in 1895-96), George McFadden, Owen Moran, Kid McPartland, Dal Hawkins, Spike Sullivan, Wilmington Jack Daly, Owen Ziegler, William Kid Parker, Willie Fitzgerald, Jack Blackburn (could make lw), Dave Holly (could make lw), Tommy White, Bobby Dobbs, Harry Lewis, probably forgetting some names.
Williams' doesn't come anywhere close.

WoW!....You're a better historian than Bert "Randolph" Sugar...!

Wildhawke11 wrote:There is film of both Benny Leonard and Joe Gans but of course its mostly of them them in the twilight of there career.

Now think Clay or Ali if you like, Imagine if the only film on Ali we had was about two or three of him as the end of his career and it was filmed with a hand wound camera which keeps changing the speeds all the time during the filming. We would all be saying "Hell how can anyone say he was a elite fighter" He cant fight inside, all he does is pull the others guys head down i am surprised the ref lets him get away with it. Where is this blinding speed that you old timers talk about. Well that's how i imagine a lot of modern fans see guys like Langford, Gans, Leonard and the like.

My pick of the one that stands out is Benny Leonard so i give my top spot to him. In case some have forgot check out his career and reports of what other fighters thought who tried to beat him. I am split between the number 2 and number 3 as i think a Duran v Joe Gans fight is a 50 - 50 pick. Of course on a given night i agree the next three down could probably win at least one out of three. You only have to have over trained and left the fight in the gym or have a personal problem or not quite 100% and your in trouble against many we don't see as top 5.

Unfortunately, most contemporary fans (especially those who grew up on Duran) are too stupid to put your excellent logic into practice.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Wildhawke11 wrote:There is film of both Benny Leonard and Joe Gans but of course its mostly of them them in the twilight of there career.

Now think Clay or Ali if you like, Imagine if the only film on Ali we had was about two or three of him as the end of his career and it was filmed with a hand wound camera which keeps changing the speeds all the time during the filming. We would all be saying "Hell how can anyone say he was a elite fighter" He cant fight inside, all he does is pull the others guys head down i am surprised the ref lets him get away with it. Where is this blinding speed that you old timers talk about. Well that's how i imagine a lot of modern fans see guys like Langford, Gans, Leonard and the like.

My pick of the one that stands out is Benny Leonard so i give my top spot to him. In case some have forgot check out his career and reports of what other fighters thought who tried to beat him. I am split between the number 2 and number 3 as i think a Duran v Joe Gans fight is a 50 - 50 pick. Of course on a given night i agree the next three down could probably win at least one out of three. You only have to have over trained and left the fight in the gym or have a personal problem or not quite 100% and your in trouble against many we don't see as top 5.

Unfortunately, most contemporary fans (especially those who grew up on Duran) are too stupid to put your excellent logic into practice.

I sure hope you aren't including Buzzy, Bazza and Jimbo in that sweepeing generalisation! These lads are historians or, in the case of Buzzy, a junior historian.

kikibalt wrote:

Zelley wrote:

Seamus wrote:I'm guessing via the process of elimination, that you're Miguel Mayan ?

Mike Mayan was a boxer from LA and turned pro in 1971.

Mayan was from San Diego and not from L.A., he lost more fight then he won.

Hello Frank
You cant beat experience of the fight game, and you my good friend had it all. Hope life is good for you and the family.

Wildhawke11 wrote:

kikibalt wrote:

Zelley wrote:I'm guessing via the process of elimination, that you're Miguel Mayan ?

Mike Mayan was a boxer from LA and turned pro in 1971.
Mayan was from San Diego and not from L.A., he lost more fight then he won.


Hello Frank
You cant beat experience of the fight game, and you my good friend had it all. Hope life is good for you and the family.

Thanks, Danny, life is good us, I hope its the same for you.

Frankly I can't see how anyone could have Duran as the best lightweight over Henry Armstrong. Consider there accomplishments at LW. Duran dominated HOF'er Ken Buchanan, stopped a very good Esteban DeJesus twice, KO'd a better than his record Guts Ishimatsu and stopeed rugged Hector Thompson. The rest of his opposition ran from decent to unimpressive. NOW, let's look at what Henry Armstrong did against fighters over 130 (no limit) while himself weighing within the LW range. He Ko'd HOF'er Benny Bass in the 4th (only ko of his career) Ko'd underrated Enrico Venturi in the 6th, took a 10 rd decision from HOF'er Baby Arizmendi. Then while waying only 133.5 he savagely beat true Welterweight and HOF'er Barney Ross for 15 rds. A beating so bad that Ross had to beg the referee not to stop the fight so he could maintain his record of never being stopped. Then he won a 15rd war with HOF'er Lou Ambers, followed that up with a 15 rd UD over Ceferino Garcia (already nominated for the HOF) Armstrong was 134, Garcia was 146.5 ! Beat Arizmendi W10 again. Handed the outstanding Davey Day the first stoppage of his career in the 12th and finally beat Ernie Roderick in a 15 rd decision in a bout in which he was outweighed by more than 10 lbs.

The facts don't lie, Armstrong was the better Lightweight.

Seamus wrote:Frankly I can't see how anyone could have Duran as the best lightweight over Henry Armstrong. Consider there accomplishments at LW. Duran dominated HOF'er Ken Buchanan, stopped a very good Esteban DeJesus twice, KO'd a better than his record Guts Ishimatsu and stopeed rugged Hector Thompson. The rest of his opposition ran from decent to unimpressive. NOW, let's look at what Henry Armstrong did against fighters over 130 (no limit) while himself weighing within the LW range. He Ko'd HOF'er Benny Bass in the 4th (only ko of his career) Ko'd underrated Enrico Venturi in the 6th, took a 10 rd decision from HOF'er Baby Arizmendi. Then while waying only 133.5 he savagely beat true Welterweight and HOF'er Barney Ross for 15 rds. A beating so bad that Ross had to beg the referee not to stop the fight so he could maintain his record of never being stopped. Then he won a 15rd war with HOF'er Lou Ambers, followed that up with a 15 rd UD over Ceferino Garcia (already nominated for the HOF) Armstrong was 134, Garcia was 146.5 ! Beat Arizmendi W10 again. Handed the outstanding Davey Day the first stoppage of his career in the 12th and finally beat Ernie Roderick in a 15 rd decision in a bout in which he was outweighed by more than 10 lbs.

The facts don't lie, Armstrong was the better Lightweight.

I can't wait for the, "But I grew up on Roberto"-inspired replies to start flowing...

Seamus wrote:Frankly I can't see how anyone could have Duran as the best lightweight over Henry Armstrong. Consider there accomplishments at LW. Duran dominated HOF'er Ken Buchanan, stopped a very good Esteban DeJesus twice, KO'd a better than his record Guts Ishimatsu and stopeed rugged Hector Thompson. The rest of his opposition ran from decent to unimpressive. NOW, let's look at what Henry Armstrong did against fighters over 130 (no limit) while himself weighing within the LW range. He Ko'd HOF'er Benny Bass in the 4th (only ko of his career) Ko'd underrated Enrico Venturi in the 6th, took a 10 rd decision from HOF'er Baby Arizmendi. Then while waying only 133.5 he savagely beat true Welterweight and HOF'er Barney Ross for 15 rds. A beating so bad that Ross had to beg the referee not to stop the fight so he could maintain his record of never being stopped. Then he won a 15rd war with HOF'er Lou Ambers, followed that up with a 15 rd UD over Ceferino Garcia (already nominated for the HOF) Armstrong was 134, Garcia was 146.5 ! Beat Arizmendi W10 again. Handed the outstanding Davey Day the first stoppage of his career in the 12th and finally beat Ernie Roderick in a 15 rd decision in a bout in which he was outweighed by more than 10 lbs.

The facts don't lie, Armstrong was the better Lightweight.

I have to take responsibility for leaving Armstrong off the list. I guess (been a while) that I was considering Armstrong as having too short a time at 135 but as you rightly say he was a lightweight fighting welters. In this case I think your criticism should be far wider than Duran.

In fact it's hard not to think of him as the undisputed #1 ATG at this weight.

Ezzard, I specificly referred to Duran because every online forum discussion as well as alot of others seem to end up with Duran as the consensus number 1 LW of alltime. Personally, the highest I could rate him would be 3rd at best (can't see rating him above Benny Leonard either)

Seamus wrote:Ezzard, I specificly referred to Duran because every online forum discussion as well as alot of others seem to end up with Duran as the consensus number 1 LW of alltime. Personally, the highest I could rate him would be 3rd at best (can't see rating him above Benny Leonard either)

I keep saying he's over-rated. 40-year-olds keep telling me to go to Hell

Gans and Duran a toss up

Duran! the best lightweight of all time!