BoxRec

hitman09 wrote:

yiddo14 wrote:Ali, Holmes...only two fighters I would back with money in a prime for prime fight against Lennox Lewis.
You won't get me backing any other with my "hard earned" in a prime for prime match up with Lennox.

I simply cannot see the apparent overwhelming factors you romantics see(Ie Tyson and Holyfield lovers!) Both of these guys got outboxed in their prime! No one outboxed Lewis, never happened.

Wasn't Vitaly winning on all 3 cards before it got stopped?

Was it scheduled for 6 rounds?

And no, he wasn;t winning on all scorecards before it got stopped either, one had them level.
Incidently, it is interesting to see who they all had winning the previous 2 rounds...
Lewis was coming on strong anmd steroid boy was fading. That is an undeniable fact.
Another undeiniable fact is that the fight got stopped legitametely because of cuts, cuts that were caused by an old, fat Lennox Lewis' fists.

Lewis was taking over in the fight, that cannot be argued.
Personally, I think he would have stopped spotty back in the next 2 rounds.

observer1 wrote:

hitman09 wrote:

DG. wrote:[

Kltischko ALL TIME GREAT Hws?

Watch Purity - Brewer and Sanders amd say thyat without smiling.


Mccall would be at WLAD..

Holyfield of then would have beaten WLAD

The Klitschko flourish because there is no one out there....

A lot of those names would beat Wlad...

Vitali is tougher but look how he fought against Sanders..

Klitschko/s are not that good...seriously...

The same could have been said about Marciano or Tyson when they ruled the division. The Klitschkos are the best HWs of the current era. They would give any of the best of the past a difficult fight. Very few heavyweights have had the combination of size, power and ability (and in Vitalys case a great chin) that the Klitschkos possess. It is hard to tell how the great fighters of the past, who would mostly be cruiserweights today, would cope with that, especially given the Klitschkos skill at dominating smaller men.

Sorry, but that's nonesense.

Marciano and Tyson dominated their division, and made feats. Such as youngest ever Undisputed champion for starters.

Vitali is decent, and would hold his own against the best, but even then, i doubt he'd actually win. As for Wlad, i'm not even going to bother commenting on that, i mean Purrity? Sanders? Brewer !? I mean come on mate.

Vitali is half decent, but wlad? Give me a break son.

The 50's may have been bad, but they were leagues above today's HW division mate,

Don't agree at all. Who would you pick out of Johansson and Klitschko - my money would be squarely on either Ukrainian and I'd pick both of them over Patterson too.

After Marciano retired the division was in a woeful state. Archie Moore got a shot at the vacant title, even Pete Radamacher got a world title shot in his debut. And even Brian London got two world title shots!

The top heavyweights today might not be great, but they are bloody effective.

hitman09 wrote:

DG. wrote:Which of the following do you rate Lewis higher than DG:

Ali - L
Louis W
Marciano W
Johnson L
Dempsey W
Frazier W
Foreman W
Charles W
Patterson W
Tyson L
Holyfield L
Walcott W
Holmes L
Liston W
Tunney W
Baer W
Norton W
Schmeling W
Moore W
Langford W
McVey WHO?? W
Sullivan W
Jeffries W
Braddock W
Wills Who? W


And how many of them woud,have beaten Lewis?

How many?????

I will list my version of who wins... see above!

W=Win for Lennox
L=Loss for Lennox
D=Draw...


Remember - Prime for Prime.. Achievements and modern day rules - none of this standing over the guy when you knock him down...


Lennox and his 17st 10lbs 6ft 6in athletic and powerful tears a lot of them up due to just being bigger - faster - stronger and a heavier hitter than most!

Answer this, WHERE would you put Haye?


I am a Haye Fan, but lets not get carried away..

He has to rule for years to equal Lennox and I think he would admit it.... In fact I will email him!

Haye obviously gets nowhere. I never suggested that. But if you believe that LENNOX LEWIS would beat prime versions of Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Langford, Tunney and Marciano, then you are a complete invalid.
And anybody who has never heard of Harry Wills and Sam McVey has no business making statement about who is an all time great.

Oh come on mate, Marciano and Tunney were both great fighters, but the size disparity would just have been too much. I think Frazier too would have struggled.

Lewis was a very very good fighter, and a good big one beats a good little one.

Just because you choose to believe that a guy weighing 186 lbs can beat someone who is 6' 6" and 245 lbs, and who also happens to be a very good and very hard hitting heavyweight, does not mean you are right.

Lewis was too big and too good to be beaten by heavwweights of that size, as good a chin as Marciano had, he wouldn't have survived to the last bell, because he would never have got near Lewis, and if he did, he would never have been able to wrestle out of the clinches.

Archie Moore - himself a very good puncher (but nowhere near as big or powerful as Lewis) had Marciano on the deck - and you think that Marciano would have beaten Lewis - laughable.

As for Foreman - that would have been a very very hard fight for Lewis without a doubt - but I wouldn't say he had NO CHANCE of winning. Foreman could be hurt too - and he was pretty slow with it. Lewis was quicker and hit hard enough to trouble foreman.

Ali and Holmes - Lewis for me has little or no chance, both men are too fast, and their jabs would have nullified Lewis' most potent weapon - his own jab. Louis was a very accurate puncher and could probably have hit and decked Lewis - but he could also have been stopped himself.

With men like Jeffries and Johnson - it's too hard to compare, the fighting styles were so different that it's hard to know how they would have adapated. It's not really worth talking about those guys in my book.

Lanford's career has been mythologised enough already I think - he was a great technician, but again, Lewis is too big and too good. No guy of 5'9", barring a miraclulous shot from nowhere is going to beat Lennox. Lest we forget, he took a real solid beating from Jack Johnson - why? Well, because he just wasn't big enough to compete on equal terms.

Always said it - David Haye beats Wladimir every day of the week in my view - Vitali is a different proposition altogether and I really do worry about David in that fight.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: Just because you choose to believe that a guy weighing 186 lbs can beat someone who is 6' 6" and 245 lbs, and who also happens to be a very good and very hard hitting heavyweight, does not mean you are right..

I agree the 245lber wins in most cases BUT fighters now have better nutrition from birth, sports nutrition, steroids, bulking programmes, weight lifting. Back then there was more hunger and poverty, thats why 6'1 Jack Johnson was called a giant, if Johnson was fed well from birth in today's conditions perhaps he would be 6'5.

Also bare in mind Dempsey and Jack Johnson both used to be homeless and hungry, the likes of Jersey Joe Walcott and Bradock had to hold down full time jobs for much of their boxing careers and didn't have enough food to put on their family tables.

Its not really fare comparing the fighters of today with the fighters of yesteryear, when today's fighters have it so easy in comparison. Having said all that many of todays lot still get schooled

hitman09 wrote:Haye obviously gets nowhere. I never suggested that. But if you believe that LENNOX LEWIS would beat prime versions of Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Langford, Tunney and Marciano, then you are a complete invalid.
And anybody who has never heard of Harry Wills and Sam McVey has no business making statement about who is an all time great.

You do realise Sam Langford was 5'6, the same height as Ricky Hatton Allot of rose tinted glasses there, I'd expect Lennox to beat them all, either too small or too crude

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

hitman09 wrote:Haye obviously gets nowhere. I never suggested that. But if you believe that LENNOX LEWIS would beat prime versions of Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Langford, Tunney and Marciano, then you are a complete invalid.
And anybody who has never heard of Harry Wills and Sam McVey has no business making statement about who is an all time great.

You do realise Sam Langford was 5'6, the same height as Ricky Hatton Allot of rose tinted glasses there, I'd expect Lennox to beat them all, either too small or too crude

He did manage to beat McVey (who was considered the best black HW at the time) a few times. As you pointed out, those guys would be a lot bigger today.

hitman09 wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

hitman09 wrote:Haye obviously gets nowhere. I never suggested that. But if you believe that LENNOX LEWIS would beat prime versions of Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Langford, Tunney and Marciano, then you are a complete invalid.
And anybody who has never heard of Harry Wills and Sam McVey has no business making statement about who is an all time great.

You do realise Sam Langford was 5'6, the same height as Ricky Hatton Allot of rose tinted glasses there, I'd expect Lennox to beat them all, either too small or too crude

He did manage to beat McVey (who was considered the best black HW at the time) a few times. As you pointed out, those guys would be a lot bigger today.

McVey was 5-10 1/2 and never the best black HW because Johnson then Wills were, Wills 6'2 and he went 17-1 against Langford if I'm not wrong. Great fighters for their era no doubt but none of them would be in the HW division today unless they were an awful lot bigger, which they maybe with modern nutrition throughout their lives. Hell Langford may have been a career WW-MW if there was big money in those divisions if he was 5'6 today

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
McVey was 5-10 1/2 and never the best black HW because Johnson then Wills were, Wills 6'2 and he went 17-1 against Langford if I'm not wrong. Great fighters for their era no doubt but none of them would be in the HW division today unless they were an awful lot bigger, which they maybe with modern nutrition throughout their lives. Hell Langford may have been a career WW-MW if there was big money in those divisions if he was 5'6 today

Wills was actually 12-3 against Langford, with 1 draw and 1 no contest, according to Boxrec. And Langford might be a few inches taller today. Mike Tyson was only 5"10". Johnson avoided them all when he held the world title.

Depends on who the next 3 are - one is WK of course, but after that needs to be VK and Chagaev, IMO, to even start talking about it. He could make sure if he stuck around longer though.

hitman09 wrote:

DG. wrote:Which of the following do you rate Lewis higher than DG:

Ali - L
Louis W
Marciano W
Johnson L
Dempsey W
Frazier W
Foreman W
Charles W
Patterson W
Tyson L
Holyfield L
Walcott W
Holmes L
Liston W
Tunney W
Baer W
Norton W
Schmeling W
Moore W
Langford W
McVey WHO?? W
Sullivan W
Jeffries W
Braddock W
Wills Who? W


And how many of them woud,have beaten Lewis?

How many?????

I will list my version of who wins... see above!

W=Win for Lennox
L=Loss for Lennox
D=Draw...


Remember - Prime for Prime.. Achievements and modern day rules - none of this standing over the guy when you knock him down...


Lennox and his 17st 10lbs 6ft 6in athletic and powerful tears a lot of them up due to just being bigger - faster - stronger and a heavier hitter than most!

Answer this, WHERE would you put Haye?


I am a Haye Fan, but lets not get carried away..

He has to rule for years to equal Lennox and I think he would admit it.... In fact I will email him!

Haye obviously gets nowhere. I never suggested that. But if you believe that LENNOX LEWIS would beat prime versions of Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Langford, Tunney and Marciano, then you are a complete invalid.
And anybody who has never heard of Harry Wills and Sam McVey has no business making statement about who is an all time great.

Marciano would be a cruiser these days....

You are deluded.So 2 fighters born waaaaaaaaaaayy before my time that I may not be sure about/know about and I have no business making a statement?

Tell me the thing about marciana and his perfect record - google it - its not so perfect...or is it?

Unlike you I know or am willing to be told..

Langford?

Do you know how big Langford was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Langford

You need your head testing...

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

hitman09 wrote:Haye obviously gets nowhere. I never suggested that. But if you believe that LENNOX LEWIS would beat prime versions of Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Langford, Tunney and Marciano, then you are a complete invalid.
And anybody who has never heard of Harry Wills and Sam McVey has no business making statement about who is an all time great.

You do realise Sam Langford was 5'6, the same height as Ricky Hatton Allot of rose tinted glasses there, I'd expect Lennox to beat them all, either too small or too crude

Hitman09 is a total utter prick.

He got the list from Wikepedia. Oh yes, sHITMAN09 - I do know Mcvey...do not know much about him...so???

Langford to beat Lennox Lewis?







Knob.

hitman09 wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
McVey was 5-10 1/2 and never the best black HW because Johnson then Wills were, Wills 6'2 and he went 17-1 against Langford if I'm not wrong. Great fighters for their era no doubt but none of them would be in the HW division today unless they were an awful lot bigger, which they maybe with modern nutrition throughout their lives. Hell Langford may have been a career WW-MW if there was big money in those divisions if he was 5'6 today

Wills was actually 12-3 against Langford, with 1 draw and 1 no contest, according to Boxrec. And Langford might be a few inches taller today. Mike Tyson was only 5"10". Johnson avoided them all when he held the world title.

I take objection to the last statement, after battering Jefferies, Johnson was arrested under the man act, which basically ran him out of America for openly involving himself with white women. He'd later get prison time. Boxing the best challengers was not his biggest priority. Fighting great white hopes offered him more money than facing other blk men

Johnson beat Langford quite emphatically pre-title, I think it was a shutout

Speaking of race I watched Freedomland today, quality movie I'd recommend (nothing to do with the above topics mind you)

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I mean, I cannot believe this is a debate. Lennox was a top 5 heavyweight for the best part of 12 years. He finished his career at the age of 37 by taking on the baddest, most dangerous guy on the block, and emerged victorious.

I just cannot see Haye ever doing what Lennox did at heavyweight - I don't think he really has time, Lennox had already achieved so much by the time he was Haye's age, that it will be hard for Haye to catch up.

Not to mention the fact that haye lacks the physical attributes Lennox had. I mean Lennox at a reach of 84 inches now that is something. Better reach than the K brothers even if he is slightly shorter than them. I don`t mean this is a racist way but Lennox had orangutan arms. Those really help when you face oversized HW like the K brothers and freaks like Valuev. Though I am sure you can win with normal reach, it is an amazing attribute to you skills no doubt.

yiddo14 wrote:

hitman09 wrote:

yiddo14 wrote:Ali, Holmes...only two fighters I would back with money in a prime for prime fight against Lennox Lewis.
You won't get me backing any other with my "hard earned" in a prime for prime match up with Lennox.

I simply cannot see the apparent overwhelming factors you romantics see(Ie Tyson and Holyfield lovers!) Both of these guys got outboxed in their prime! No one outboxed Lewis, never happened.

Wasn't Vitaly winning on all 3 cards before it got stopped?

Was it scheduled for 6 rounds?

And no, he wasn;t winning on all scorecards before it got stopped either, one had them level.
Incidently, it is interesting to see who they all had winning the previous 2 rounds...
Lewis was coming on strong anmd steroid boy was fading. That is an undeniable fact.
Another undeiniable fact is that the fight got stopped legitametely because of cuts, cuts that were caused by an old, fat Lennox Lewis' fists.

Lewis was taking over in the fight, that cannot be argued.
Personally, I think he would have stopped spotty back in the next 2 rounds.

I doubt what you are saying is accurate. According to Box Rec and almost every other online site that has the score card Vitali before the fightw as stopped was leading on all score cards. This is what Box Rec says:

~ time: 3:00 | referee: Lou Moret | 56-58 | 56-58 | 56-58 ~ (all in favor of Vitali)
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ IBO heavyweight title ~
Fight stopped due to a Klitschko cut.

If you think you have a better source I think you should tell BoxRec to correct it, but until I see it happening I call bullshit on your statement.

Yes not to mention that Lewis hadn't won the last two rounds, he won rounds 3 and 6 on all three cards, where are you getting your info from Yiddo?

Terry D wrote:

hitman09 wrote: Which of the following do you rate Lewis higher than DG:
Ali
Louis
Marciano
Johnson
Dempsey
Frazier
Foreman
Charles
Patterson
Tyson
Holyfield
Walcott
Holmes
Liston
Tunney
Baer
Norton
Schmeling
Moore
Langford
McVey
Sullivan
Jeffries
Braddock
Wills
?
That is 25 I have listed, all of whom were better than Lewis, and I'm sure there are more whos names I cannot remember at the moment. How on earth can you have him top 10?

Below there is an even funnier one, not sure who it is by.

if haye beats both klitschko's he'll surpass lennox all day long but i think its near impossible for him to defeat vitali,even at vitali's age.

Nonsensical stuff.

Most likely Hitman09,anyone who thinks Paterson and Langford beats Lennox needs their head testing..

DG. wrote:Marciano would be a cruiser these days....

You are deluded.So 2 fighters born waaaaaaaaaaayy before my time that I may not be sure about/know about and I have no business making a statement?

Tell me the thing about marciana and his perfect record - google it - its not so perfect...or is it?

Unlike you I know or am willing to be told..

Langford?

Do you know how big Langford was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Langford

You need your head testing...

Jack Johnson wouldn't have beaten Lewis either. Anyone who's seen footage of Johnson knows his skills were primitive in comparison to todays fighters. During his era he was briliiant, but boxing has totally moved on from those days. That doesn't make Lewis a greater heavyweight than Johnson necessarily, because you judge fighters by how they dominated their own era's, not by how they would do in head to head match up's.

ArtOfWar wrote:

DG. wrote:Marciano would be a cruiser these days....

You are deluded.So 2 fighters born waaaaaaaaaaayy before my time that I may not be sure about/know about and I have no business making a statement?

Tell me the thing about marciana and his perfect record - google it - its not so perfect...or is it?

Unlike you I know or am willing to be told..

Langford?

Do you know how big Langford was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Langford

You need your head testing...

Jack Johnson wouldn't have beaten Lewis either. Anyone who's seen footage of Johnson knows his skills were primitive in comparison to todays fighters. During his era he was briliiant, but boxing has totally moved on from those days. That doesn't make Lewis a greater heavyweight than Johnson necessarily, because you judge fighters by how they dominated their own era's, not by how they would do in head to head match up's.

Lennox was at the top for over a decade and ducked no one...

Top 5 - 10 Heavyweight of all time!

Hitman09 is deluded.

Langford would be lucky to get out of the 1st round with that Lewis uppercut..

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote: Just because you choose to believe that a guy weighing 186 lbs can beat someone who is 6' 6" and 245 lbs, and who also happens to be a very good and very hard hitting heavyweight, does not mean you are right..

I agree the 245lber wins in most cases BUT fighters now have better nutrition from birth, sports nutrition, steroids, bulking programmes, weight lifting. Back then there was more hunger and poverty, thats why 6'1 Jack Johnson was called a giant, if Johnson was fed well from birth in today's conditions perhaps he would be 6'5.

Also bare in mind Dempsey and Jack Johnson both used to be homeless and hungry, the likes of Jersey Joe Walcott and Bradock had to hold down full time jobs for much of their boxing careers and didn't have enough food to put on their family tables.

Its not really fare comparing the fighters of today with the fighters of yesteryear, when today's fighters have it so easy in comparison. Having said all that many of todays lot still get schooled

Yes, but we can only talk about them as they were, not how they might have been - what are you going to have 'nutritional handicapping' for what are after all mythical fights.

DG. wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

hitman09 wrote:Haye obviously gets nowhere. I never suggested that. But if you believe that LENNOX LEWIS would beat prime versions of Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Langford, Tunney and Marciano, then you are a complete invalid.
And anybody who has never heard of Harry Wills and Sam McVey has no business making statement about who is an all time great.

You do realise Sam Langford was 5'6, the same height as Ricky Hatton Allot of rose tinted glasses there, I'd expect Lennox to beat them all, either too small or too crude

Hitman09 is a total utter prick.

He got the list from Wikepedia. Oh yes, sHITMAN09 - I do know Mcvey...do not know much about him...so???

Langford to beat Lennox Lewis?







Knob.

Show me where on Wikipedia that list can be found. Don't talk shit unless you can back it up.

Terry D wrote:I am bored, so here goes:

Ali - One of the guys I would put alongside Lewis in terms of achievements and skill.
Louis - See above.
Marciano - Higher accomplishments, lower in ability.
Johnson - Jack Johnson was a genius, but like most revolutionary figures best appreciated as and from his time.
Dempsey - Not on a par with Lewis.
Frazier - Massively underrated, but would struggle to match Lewis in a fight, and dawdles in terms of achievements, win over Ali aside.
Foreman - I would have him below Lewis stylistically as Lewis had more to his game, regaining the title after such a gap was a huge achievement, but it was a flawed victory in some respects.
Charles - Best LHW ever, or one of them, not as solid at HW, not as accomplished at the weight as Lewis.
Patterson - No, just no.
Tyson - We have all been here before.
Holyfield - Here an all.
Walcott - An amazing title win, best ever heavyweight title contest Vs Marciano but lags behind Lewis.
Holmes - One of the few men I would rate over Lewis.
Liston - Similar to Johnson in that he got his chance a little too late, but up to that point he was the most devastating heavyweight the world had seen, and physically perfect. Timing and circumstance f*cked him up.
Tunney - Great wins over Dempsey, but below Lewis.
Baer - Are you picking these names out of a hat? Max was a piece of physical perfection, but on a par with Lewis? Not unless you are on crack.
Norton - Would be hammered to defeat by Lewis.
Schmeling - No. Smart geezer, but just no.
Moore - Do you mean Archie Moore here? If so, eh?
Langford - Nope, Internet legend, I have footage of him in action, but not enough to say that he would match Lewis for ability.
McVey
Sullivan
Jeffries
Braddock
Wills - Those names suggest that you are picking names out of a hat, whilst smoking crack.

Kill him Diddly!

Mashed down, Diddly style!

Pcxking the names out of a hat? Gwannnn, Diddly!

Yeah. Not to be a bitch here yiddo14 But I am still waiting on how you managed to imagine Vitali was losing on one of the cards? and Also according to the guy that posted under me in page 3 of this thread you also were not right about Lennox making a come back in the 2 rounds before Vitali got cut.

So? Just say it was you British citizenship that colored your perception of the fight better than to look incompetent.

hitman09 wrote:
Show me where on Wikipedia that list can be found. Don't talk shit unless you can back it up.

You plucked it from somewhere and by the looks of some of your choices I would guess you pulled it from out of your bottom.

TheCentre wrote:Yeah. Not to be a bitch here yiddo14 But I am still waiting on how you managed to imagine Vitali was losing on one of the cards? and Also according to the guy that posted under me in page 3 of this thread you also were not right about Lennox making a come back in the 2 rounds before Vitali got cut.

So? Just say it was you British citizenship that colored your perception of the fight better than to look incompetent.

Exactly. The same is true for everybody who says Lewis would beat Foreman, Frazier and Marciano.
Except for DG, he isn't biased, he's just a dumb pudendum.