BoxRec

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

raylawpc wrote: Don't know of any direct quotes? Try this in March 1892, when Sullivan offered his famous challenge to fight any white fighter - preference Slavin, Mitchell, or Corbett - for a $25,000 purse and $10,000 side bet. "But in this challenge I include all fighters - first come, first serve - who are white. I will not fight a negro. I never have and I never will." That direct enough for you? Is the context okay?

I never said that there was a line of black fighters waiting to challenge Sully. But you said there was only one challenger - Godfrey - and intimated that Jackson came on the scene too late. Ridiculous. Jackson arrived on American shores and established himself as a top heavyweight in 1888 - one year before Sully whipped Kilrain in arguably Sully's best fight and greatest effort.

- 1889 was a bareknuckle championship bout. Jackson was not relevant to JL's obvious goal of being the red meat bareknuckle champ.

Jackson arrived too late save for the single and last bout JL fought. The implication has always been that JL ducked black contenders and drew the colour line. I've never cast doubt on what he may have said, but mentioned that quotes of the subject would be likely restricted to Jackson as is the case in your example.

It's bad form to make sweeping conclusions about a fighter on his last leg, especially a fighter like Sullivan who was greatly diminished and afflicted with problems by then.

Jack Dempsey regurgitated similar stock in trade answers to queries about fighting Wills, and then left the care of Kearns and Rickard who wouldn't entertain the fight and signed to fight Wills. His actions did not match his rhetoric as is often the case with people. Context lads, context. Any one can be lifted out of context, and you lifted me out of context.

I happen to admire Peter Jackson on many fronts, so I thank you for the tidbit about forgoing a Corbett challenge because of terms and conditions, however, CONTEXT! I would need to know the terms to evaluate if Corbett made a reasonable offer. Boxrec says the Corbett/Mitchell winner was paid $20,000, and it's difficult to entertain that Jackson would turn down an offer like that for example.

raylawpc wrote: You said, "It's bad form to make sweeping conclusions about a fighter on his last leg . . ." On that point we agree, and I wish you'd stop doing it.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

raylawpc wrote: You said, "It's bad form to make sweeping conclusions about a fighter on his last leg . . ." On that point we agree, and I wish you'd stop doing it.

- And you're welcome to go and find in my numerous posts where I've done that.

raylawpc wrote: You know, I'd do that but I don't have the time to put together, and this site doesn't have the bandwidth to handle, a list that names all the fighters about whom you have made incorrect and sweeping conclusions . . .

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Ezzard wrote: But those reductions were made because the rules were broken.

- Back to stating the obvious, eh?

One can only imagine your purpose since nobody I can recall has ever disputed the deductions against Cooney, at least on this board, nor is Holmes victory over Cooney disputed. Need to return to the thread header and reread to get back on track.

Per the official judges scores, Cooney was well ahead on the pure boxing points before the deductions.

That you or others may think that Holmes was the better boxer and outboxed Cooney, that is subjective opinion. The judges scores are completely objective facts and part of the record.

Ezzard wrote: In terms of boxing he was losing on all 3 cards. Take a look on boxrec. And according to your own criteria this a completely objective fact.

dempseyfire wrote:Dundee has always been an anti-Holmes guy. Since Dundee was NOT "in the corner" I'm not sure how his "view from the corner" means jack in this instance.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Ezzard wrote: In terms of boxing he was losing on all 3 cards. Take a look on boxrec. And according to your own criteria this a completely objective fact.

- Sweet Mother of Madonna's metal corset, Cooney was only losing AFTER the deductions, not before.

If Holmes had swept every round, he'd have 10 points every round, or 120 points going into the 13th. Repeat after me: judge: Duane Ford 113-111 Holmes | judge: Dave Moretti 113-111 Holmes | judge: Jerry Roth 115-109 Holmes.

Cooney would've had his 4-5 points deducted from a cumulative 108 score, making the final score 120 to 104 or 120-103 depending on the final total of the points deductions.

Jerry Roth is the only judge who had Larry with 10 points in a majority of rounds, giving him 7 of the 12. The other two only gave Larry 5 of the 12 rds. This is 2nd grade arithmetic boys, not rocket science.

Larry never outboxed Gerrie. He instead hung in there absorbing a beating until Gerrie collapses from his own efforts. This wouldn't be the first time the beater ran out of steam leaving the beatee as the last man standing. This was Holmes' poor man version of Ali/Foreman fight with Cooney as a lesser fighter than Big George, and Larry less a sweet Ali highlight clip to show off.

Ali and Foreman of Zaire, both would've mopped the floor with any version of Holmes or Cooney that has ever existed. Darned shame my time machine is still in the experimental phase, otherwise I'd arrange those bouts and post the footage on the tube.

Ezzard wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: I'm trying to show you that your methodologies - second grade analysis of the fight and your insistence on facts that contradict one another - need tweaking...

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Ezzard wrote: In terms of boxing he was losing on all 3 cards. Take a look on boxrec. And according to your own criteria this a completely objective fact.

- Sweet Mother of Madonna's metal corset, Cooney was only losing AFTER the deductions, not before.

If Holmes had swept every round, he'd have 10 points every round, or 120 points going into the 13th. Repeat after me: judge: Duane Ford 113-111 Holmes | judge: Dave Moretti 113-111 Holmes | judge: Jerry Roth 115-109 Holmes.

Cooney would've had his 4-5 points deducted from a cumulative 108 score, making the final score 120 to 104 or 120-103 depending on the final total of the points deductions.

Jerry Roth is the only judge who had Larry with 10 points in a majority of rounds, giving him 7 of the 12. The other two only gave Larry 5 of the 12 rds. This is 2nd grade arithmetic boys, not rocket science.

Larry never outboxed Gerrie. He instead hung in there absorbing a beating until Gerrie collapses from his own efforts. This wouldn't be the first time the beater ran out of steam leaving the beatee as the last man standing. This was Holmes' poor man version of Ali/Foreman fight with Cooney as a lesser fighter than Big George, and Larry less a sweet Ali highlight clip to show off.

Ali and Foreman of Zaire, both would've mopped the floor with any version of Holmes or Cooney that has ever existed. Darned shame my time machine is still in the experimental phase, otherwise I'd arrange those bouts and post the footage on the tube.

Flump wrote: Don't agree with that at all, Cooney came back well from being floored and hurt in round 2 and gave Holmes some trouble in the middle rounds with body shots, but Holmes was controlling things clearly by the end of round 10, it was the punches Cooney was absorbing that made him tired, that and 2 rounds in the previous 2 years not being nearly enough preperation for the step up in class.

hhaehre wrote:

Flump wrote: Don't agree with that at all, Cooney came back well from being floored and hurt in round 2 and gave Holmes some trouble in the middle rounds with body shots, but Holmes was controlling things clearly by the end of round 10, it was the punches Cooney was absorbing that made him tired, that and 2 rounds in the previous 2 years not being nearly enough preperation for the step up in class.

I agree that the lack of proper preparation cost Cooney but I have to disagree with the rest. I really don't see Holmes controlling the fight until the last round and a half when Cooney imploded. Holmes was not able to sustain any kind of attack until Cooney was reeling around from exhaustion. The kd in round two was a costly one for Cooney as it appeared to take away his legs for the remainder of the fight but he still managed to put plenty of pressure on Holmes and he landed the harder shots throughout the fight. Holmes had that intangible championship quality that did not allow him to lose but he had to do it the hard way against Cooney.