BoxRec

APerno wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:12

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 17:42 Well neutral corner, would've only delayed the count nothing more. Liston took a dive.

Liston didn't take a dive. Liston tried to take a dive but Ali wouldn't let him. I have always been of the mind that when Ali went over an taunted Liston it was because he realized Liston was going to lay down.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:29

APerno wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:12

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 17:42 Well neutral corner, would've only delayed the count nothing more. Liston took a dive.

Liston didn't take a dive. Liston tried to take a dive but Ali wouldn't let him. I have always been of the mind that when Ali went over an taunted Liston it was because he realized Liston was going to lay down.

That's a very iconic Ali image. I've always loved that photo

Kalan wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:40

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:29

APerno wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:12

Liston didn't take a dive. Liston tried to take a dive but Ali wouldn't let him. I have always been of the mind that when Ali went over an taunted Liston it was because he realized Liston was going to lay down.

That's a very iconic Ali image. I've always loved that photo

Iconic photo of Ali flaunting the rules... He's COMPELLED BY THE RULES to be in a neutral corner... Liston ISN'T going to get up with Ali standing over him... That would be STUPID!!!!!

APerno.... You AGREED with me that Liston was screwed.... You AGREED with me that Ali needed to be in a neutral corner according to the rules.... You AGREED with me that Ali got away with more rule flaunting than "any other modern fighter"..... All Ali would have had to do was go to a neutral corner (which he was COMPELLED to do according to the neutral corner rule) and Liston would have gotten up... According to the rules the count should have been SUSPENDED....and it wasn't.

APerno wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 00:42

Kalan wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:40

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:29

That's a very iconic Ali image. I've always loved that photo

Iconic photo of Ali flaunting the rules... He's COMPELLED BY THE RULES to be in a neutral corner... Liston ISN'T going to get up with Ali standing over him... That would be STUPID!!!!!

APerno.... You AGREED with me that Liston was screwed.... You AGREED with me that Ali needed to be in a neutral corner according to the rules.... You AGREED with me that Ali got away with more rule flaunting than "any other modern fighter"..... All Ali would have had to do was go to a neutral corner (which he was COMPELLED to do according to the neutral corner rule) and Liston would have gotten up... According to the rules the count should have been SUSPENDED....and it wasn't.

Ok Yes I agree with the above, really!

But it is irrelevant to what I said: Ali realized Liston was going to lay down and called him on it. That's is what is happening in the picture above. I believe he said something to he effect of "get up sucker" - but not sure.

I have always said that Liston would have stayed down if Ali hadn't started running around the ring, and that he had to get up because Walcott wouldn't (couldn't) count. Kalan, I have been consistent in saying this.

But yes in the end he got screwed because the fight should never have been stopped by Nat Fleischer, that was an absurdity, As it happened the fight should have gone on. Liston should have either been counted out by the referee or the fight should have continued. In that yes, Liston got screwed. (I am not convinced that's what Liston actually wanted.)

What the referee should have done and Liston's intentions are two separate issues; I have never agreed with you that Liston didn't get up because he was afraid Ali would hit him. Liston got up (reluctantly) only because Walcott never counted.

APerno wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:12

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 17:42 Well neutral corner, would've only delayed the count nothing more. Liston took a dive.

Liston didn't take a dive. Liston tried to take a dive but Ali wouldn't let him. I have always been of the mind that when Ali went over an taunted Liston it was because he realized Liston was going to lay down.

Kalan wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 01:49

APerno wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 00:42

Kalan wrote: ↑02 May 2018, 23:40

Iconic photo of Ali flaunting the rules... He's COMPELLED BY THE RULES to be in a neutral corner... Liston ISN'T going to get up with Ali standing over him... That would be STUPID!!!!!

APerno.... You AGREED with me that Liston was screwed.... You AGREED with me that Ali needed to be in a neutral corner according to the rules.... You AGREED with me that Ali got away with more rule flaunting than "any other modern fighter"..... All Ali would have had to do was go to a neutral corner (which he was COMPELLED to do according to the neutral corner rule) and Liston would have gotten up... According to the rules the count should have been SUSPENDED....and it wasn't.

Ok Yes I agree with the above, really!

But it is irrelevant to what I said: Ali realized Liston was going to lay down and called him on it. That's is what is happening in the picture above. I believe he said something to he effect of "get up sucker" - but not sure.

I have always said that Liston would have stayed down if Ali hadn't started running around the ring, and that he had to get up because Walcott wouldn't (couldn't) count. Kalan, I have been consistent in saying this.

But yes in the end he got screwed because the fight should never have been stopped by Nat Fleischer, that was an absurdity, As it happened the fight should have gone on. Liston should have either been counted out by the referee or the fight should have continued. In that yes, Liston got screwed. (I am not convinced that's what Liston actually wanted.)

What the referee should have done and Liston's intentions are two separate issues; I have never agreed with you that Liston didn't get up because he was afraid Ali would hit him. Liston got up (reluctantly) only because Walcott never counted.

Well you're DEAD WRONG!!!! .... ANYBODY can make an allegation like that but it MAKES NO SENSE... You have NO PROOF WHATEVER!!!! .... Liston would NEVER have gotten up and resumed fighting if he intended to tank the fight.... Such actions would make no sense whatever... Liston knew only the referee could count him out... He stated he would have gotten up if he got a count.... He scored a 100 knockdowns and went to a neutral corner 100 times... He knew the drill.... Ali didn't score a lot of knockdowns and he was prone to spastic and irrational behavior patterns...

Ali broke rule after rule... Liston BROKE NO RULES.... You want to blame the victim of this farce.

You should be outraged that Liston was screwed over... I certainly am... I think any right thinking person would be.

Kalan wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 13:00 I trade currencies which is a boring ass job that only takes 15 minutes an hour to do... I'm on this and 5 other sites periodically when I'm not working out with weights at the Y or answering the damned phone...

I should actually get more Z's -- but I'm almost addicted to political websites.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 13:29 The fight between these two guys at the time it took place was pretty much a lock in favor of Clay and then Ali.

So whether by old age, bad shoulder, DQ, The nation of Islam, the Mob, bad officiating, alien abduction, crop circles, the guy from the grassy knoll, or Liston just allowing himself to take a good old fashion shellacking....the outcome was pretty gonna be the same.

Sell that stock and make your profit. It's solid currency on any market.

APerno wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 13:08 Your explanation: Liston feared Ali was coming towards him and would have hit him when he rose, so Liston went back down to protect himself.

Other people's explanation: Liston was dizzy from a temple shot and lost his equilibrium when he rose to a knee too quickly.

My explanation: Liston waited on the canvas to be counted out, when Walcott didn't begin counting (because he was chasing Ali around the ring) Liston reluctantly began to get up, but once he got to a knee Liston saw Walcott walking back towards him, possibly about to begin a count, so he went back down hoping to be counted out.

But poor Liston couldn't catch a break, once again Ali wouldn't let Walcott count, so Liston had no choice but to rise (a second time) and continue fighting.

When Liston goes down the second time It is Walcott, Liston see coming towards him, not Ali. He is not protecting himself from Ali, he is trying to put himself in a position to be counted out.

Kalan wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 13:57

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 13:29 The fight between these two guys at the time it took place was pretty much a lock in favor of Clay and then Ali.

So whether by old age, bad shoulder, DQ, The nation of Islam, the Mob, bad officiating, alien abduction, crop circles, the guy from the grassy knoll, or Liston just allowing himself to take a good old fashion shellacking....the outcome was pretty gonna be the same.

Sell that stock and make your profit. It's solid currency on any market.

You're fulla crap as usual... The FIRST fight Liston was loaded with ring rust (3 rounds in 3 years) and suffered a debilitating injury... Your dizzy talk about alien abduction and crop circles doesn't dismiss FACTS!!!

The rematch never got started.... It was ABOUT to start, but we were deprived of an ATG fight that Liston had an excellent chance to win... He should have already WON... Even YOU are smart enough to know a man who openly defies the referee in a boxing match should be disqualified... You ARE smart enough to know that right????????? .... hmmm maybe not.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 14:50

Kalan wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 13:57

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 13:29 The fight between these two guys at the time it took place was pretty much a lock in favor of Clay and then Ali.

So whether by old age, bad shoulder, DQ, The nation of Islam, the Mob, bad officiating, alien abduction, crop circles, the guy from the grassy knoll, or Liston just allowing himself to take a good old fashion shellacking....the outcome was pretty gonna be the same.

Sell that stock and make your profit. It's solid currency on any market.

You're fulla crap as usual... The FIRST fight Liston was loaded with ring rust (3 rounds in 3 years) and suffered a debilitating injury... Your dizzy talk about alien abduction and crop circles doesn't dismiss FACTS!!!

The rematch never got started.... It was ABOUT to start, but we were deprived of an ATG fight that Liston had an excellent chance to win... He should have already WON... Even YOU are smart enough to know a man who openly defies the referee in a boxing match should be disqualified... You ARE smart enough to know that right????????? .... hmmm maybe not.

Hey, I'm not full of crap.....and that really hurts my sensitive feelings to be falsely accused in such a cavalier fashion. You are going to besmirch my reputation with such barbs.

However, let's address your Nonsensical outrage, much adieu over a small potato. AND...duely noted...you think Sonny would have been a very very competitive matchup....

Once again....I refer the members of the Jury to Liston's following fight......it's the same Liston....which of course you have written a litany of excuses for why......it was not the super duper Liston. But it's on the record for everyone to view.

And anyway....a man who won't compete.....can't compete.....capiche? Which is the case you seem to be making, that Liston just wanted out........while I'm thinking he just would not be up to it.


Folks...I suggest you .just view Liston's next fight.
Then it's up to you.......Who ya gonna believe.....Kalan? Or your OWN lying eyes.

You're extremely selective aren't you Buzzbox???

You KNOW DAMNED WELL Liston was rusty as HELL for Zech... He boxed a total of 3 rounds in 3 years before he fought Ali... But between Howard King and Gerhard Zech -- a span of 76 months -- Liston fought a total of 10 rounds... That's one round every 7.6 months for a period of well over 6 years... Many of those were shortened rounds..

That's not enough action to keep ANY boxer sharp - much less an aging warrior... With the 7 rounds Liston had against Zech he looked a lot sharper against Amos Johnson the following month... Why not use THAT fight to gauge him??? A year earlier Johnson beat Henry Cooper in England before the Ali's defense against Cooper... Liston DESTROYED Johnson.

Or better yet... How about the Patterson fight which Liston fought before Ali??? ... Liston was closer to his prime... Drop Ali in there instead of Patterson and Ali gets smashed with a lot of those sharp devastating punches.

Liston continued to look very sharp for a dozen fights following the Amos Johnson fight... Age eventually caught up with Sonny the same way it caught up to Ali... He was at least 37 against Leotis Martin ... and if you believe that?

Kalan wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 13:57

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 13:29 The fight between these two guys at the time it took place was pretty much a lock in favor of Clay and then Ali.

So whether by old age, bad shoulder, DQ, The nation of Islam, the Mob, bad officiating, alien abduction, crop circles, the guy from the grassy knoll, or Liston just allowing himself to take a good old fashion shellacking....the outcome was pretty gonna be the same.

Sell that stock and make your profit. It's solid currency on any market.

You're fulla crap as usual... The FIRST fight Liston was loaded with ring rust (3 rounds in 3 years) and suffered a debilitating injury... Your dizzy talk about alien abduction and crop circles doesn't dismiss FACTS!!!

The rematch never got started.... It was ABOUT to start, but we were deprived of an ATG fight that Liston had an excellent chance to win... He should have already WON... Even YOU are smart enough to know a man who openly defies the referee in a boxing match should be disqualified... You ARE smart enough to know that right????????? .... hmmm maybe not.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 17:33 YIPES!!!

So....let me get this straight.......Cuz it's right out of the wildest fiction writers imaginations........

The system "FAVORED" the loudmouth black pride guy who walked away from the Christian faith, while making a spectacle of himself in favor of the "Dark and stormy" not to mention scary ex con?

In this day and age MAYBE that could be believed......but .back then? Cmon.....the best case you can make is that both of these guys were despised......and at the time.....I truly think it was Ali that was considered the more despicable of the two. If for no other reason than his uppity Christian dumping persona.

Back then you could be black and an ex con and "quietly angry" .......But to be black, walk away from Christianity, AND do everything on earth to make yourself NOTICED while calling out the status quo?

Even you....with your neuro setting set at "FULL BRAIN DEAD MAX TURBO BLAST" can't possibly believe such jabberwocky..

Kalan wrote: ↑03 May 2018, 17:56 When people tell you to save your moral indignation for whore monger Jimmy Swaggart... because they don't want to see justice done or see justice served – then it gets a little rich.... I had plenty of contempt for Swaggart and he has nothing to do with this.... Liston's been smeared as a quitter and a tanker for 2 generations... High time to set the record straight.

The facts as thoroughly as they can be known... since we’re not God.

Ali defied the referee’s order to go to a neutral corner... Walcott didn’t enforce the neutral corner rule by pausing the count... Walcott never issued a count to Liston because he was busy trying to get Ali to a neutral corner... Liston got up from the knockdown and resumed fighting... Liston prove to be in full control of his body and reflexes by ducking and slipping every follow up punch, showing he was unfazed by the knockdown punch... Nat Fleischer hated Liston and interfered with the officiating... The Time Keeper was unfamiliar with the neutral corner rule and incorrectly marked the end of the fight at 1 minute into the round... The boxing commissioners present blew their job by not immediately notifying the time keeper, referee, and judges of the neutral corner rule and ordering the fight resumed... The Maine Boxing Commission covered the asses of their inept commissioners by making Liston the fall guy... Liston broke no rules but had his license to fight revoked for years in all 50 states... Men like Cus D’Amato came to Liston’s defense and tried in vain to talk sense to the commissioners who were immovable... Foreign boxing commissions didn’t recognize the suspension and eventually allowed Liston to make a living fighting, stating that the neutral corner rule wasn’t enforced and Liston resumed fighting because Ali, Liston, and Walcott all assumed the fight was still on.

Here is the speculation and bull-crap for which there is NO evidence.

Liston took a dive... Liston wanted to take a dive... Liston was about to take a dive... If the fight had continued Liston would have gone down again and tanked the fight... Ali was in full control of the fight and Liston was no match for him anyway so it didn’t matter that the officials all blew their jobs and created the biggest debacle of all time... Liston’s wife was kidnapped... Black Muslim assassins were planted in the audience... Liston was threatened with death if he didn’t throw the fight... Liston was scared to death there was an assassin in the audience and wanted to get the Hell out of there.