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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 11 Jul 2008, 18:42
by Rick Farris
bennie wrote:
kikibalt wrote:Image
Sugar Ray Robinson, New Middleweight Champion, Leaving Stadium after Defeating Carmen Basilio
Chicago...1958
Robinson was so good in those rematches, much like Napoles. Personally, I think The Sugar Man would have found a way to beat Marvin Hagler. Marvin was a great, great middleweight but not a great "thinking" fighter. He was too mechanical and focussed for that. I remember against Duran he would rush out at the bell and throw a long right from the orthodox stance. Duran could see it coming and countered with a hard right uppercut to the body. Bizarrely, and perhaps revealingly, Hagler continued to do exactly the same thing at the start of almost every round, even though he NEVER landed.
Robinson-Napoles, great comparison, Bennie. In my opinion, Hagler was great for his era, however, Robinson fought at a time when the middleweight division was much thicker in talent, and times were tougher. Of these four, Hagler, Leonard, Hearns & Duran, all would have done well any any era, however, only Roberto Duran would be GREAT in any era. Duran fought pro from age 16-to-50, had well over a 100 fights and despite looking sad toward the end, at age 38, having fought pro for 22 years, Duran dropped Iran Barkley (who had just flattened Tommy Hearns) and took the IBF Middleweight title. Duran was a 3-1 underdog, and would continue on for another dozen years before a car accident ended his ring career for good. Robinson and Duran had something that Sugar Ray Leonard did not have- longevity. Leonard always had all the edges going into a match because he was the draw, however, after just three dozen fights, Sugar Ray Leonard was a shot fighter. Look at Leonard's record, what did he do after 30 some fights? Nada!

-Rick

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 11 Jul 2008, 19:54
by kikibalt
Image

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 11 Jul 2008, 19:55
by kikibalt
Image
Image

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 11 Jul 2008, 23:25
by kikibalt
Image
Sugar Ray Robinson & Jim Norris
Circa 1957

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 11 Jul 2008, 23:28
by kikibalt
Image
Sugar Ray Robinson & George Gainford
Rome, Italy, Circa 1964

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 00:16
by dagosd2000
I know this is being discussed on another thread,but since it concerns Indian Red ,and I might as throw in Little Red,did they have any Mexican blood in them? They had the name Lopez,but they didn´t look Mexican and I don´t know if they spoke Spanish. Frank,Rick,one of you guys should know this.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 00:29
by dagosd2000
kikibalt wrote:Image
Sugar Ray Robinson & George Gainford
Rome, Italy, Circa 1964
Great photo Frank
Never saw that one before. Robinson was not a crude man. I saw him briefly a few times with my dad. He may not have been able to quote Shakespeare,but he could recognize art and beauty. I heard him mention once Europe. He said he loved it there. He was moved by the architecture,paintings,Western Civilization in general. He even said he liked classical music,but didn´t know much about it. Like many of the Black fighters of his day,he loved jazz music. Europe still has a thirst for American jazz .

Robinson went to Europe several times on tours fighting. Even when he was past his prime. I might be wrong about this however. That´s like saying the Coliseum is past its prime. Europe has an eye for art and beauty. Just take a look at Sugar Ray Robinson in that picture. An American artist.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 00:38
by dagosd2000
kikibalt wrote:Image
Sugar Ray Robinson & Jim Norris
Circa 1957
I know it was a badge of distiction if an Italian fighter could beat Ray Robinson or Joe Louis. On the West Side of Chicago, Caemen Basilio and Rocky Marciano didn´t have to pay for nothing. Yeah,I know they faced those great Black fighters when they had a lot of miles on them,but what the heck. The reason those Dagos were so thrilled by their guys victories is because they beat two of the greatest fighters who ever lived. What would boxing be like without the names of Sugar Ray and The Brown Bomber? Don´t even want to think about it.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 00:42
by Rick Farris
kikibalt wrote:Image


Ironically, I'll see Vince Delgado tomorrow morning at a board meeting for the World Boxing Hall of Fame. In addition to being a fighter and long-time referee/judge, he's the nephhew of the late L.A. headliner Carlos Chavez. Chavez was a helluva lightweight in L.A. defeating Manuel Ortiz and Lauro Salas to name a few. In 1990, at age 68, Chavez was shot & killed in a street fight. Frank, Carlos Chavez was active before my time, however, I remember my uncle talking about him when I was a kid. I know you saw him fight and maybe boxed him in the gym? What are your memories of Chavez?

-Rick

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 00:48
by Rick Farris
dagosd2000 wrote:I know this is being discussed on another thread,but since it concerns Indian Red ,and I might as throw in Little Red,did they have any Mexican blood in them? They had the name Lopez,but they didn´t look Mexican and I don´t know if they spoke Spanish. Frank,Rick,one of you guys should know this.

Dagos . . . The Lopez brothers are a mixture of Ute Indian, Mexican and Irish. Talk about a strain of fighting blood, huh? This I knew, however, your question about his speaking Spanish I didn't, so, I called Danny's house and asked his wife Bonnie (Danny is on a fishing trip with his son Bronson). Bonnie laughed and said "No, he doesn't speak much Spanish, and lately he's been having trouble with English."

-Rick

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 02:47
by bennie
kikibalt wrote:Image
Sugar Ray Robinson vs Fritzie Zivic
16 January 1942
Without checking, I'm pretty sure Robinson licked Zivic in his FIRST year as a pro.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 02:54
by bennie
dagosd2000 wrote:
bennie wrote:
dagosd2000 wrote:¨Now he doesn´t come home at night. ¨
Jibaro´s wife was breast feeding the baby with a blanket draped over her front.
¨Can´t you talk to hi^m?*¨
I remember when he was dating her. She was shy and pretty and fell for him hard. Her father was training him and also was on the managing end.
¨I´ll try,but what has your father said? ¨
¨He´s dying over this. He´s like a son to him. ¨
On the way up Jibaro was in the gym everyday. His wife announced that she was pregnant and everything seemed bright ahead . Jibaro won the title at the Auditorium in Tijuana and became the toast of the town. A good looking kid. Tall and dark. Full head of hair and a smile and personality that was irresistable. But almost immediately you could feel something going on. He celebrated all night and let his wife and father in law go back home without him. I looked at Jibaro´s wifw. She had gained weight from having the baby and the stress of it all was on her face. There was nothing romantic about the situation. It was gone.
¨You know,¨I said,¨He only listens to people that give him the wrong advice.¨
¨If he would only come home. I know if he sees the baby things will get better.¨
The baby was finished eating and was asleep. She wrapped the baby in the blanket and was rocking him slowly.
¨My brother wants to kill him. I´m worried.¨
¨Don´t believe that. Your brother wouldn´t want to leave his nephew without a father.¨
¨He told me that he would make a better father.¨
¨I´ll talk to Jibaro when he comes to the gym. I promise.¨
¨After he won the title we have less money than before.¨
Jibaro´s wife began to cry. Her mother came into the room and took the baby fom the mother´s arms.
¨Con permiso,¨she said. She took the baby,who was asleep into the living room.
^I thought after winning the championship we would have no more worries.¨
Jibaro´s wife stopped crying. It was like she couldn´t cry anymore.
¨It often happens that way,^
¨What way do you mean?¨she asked wiping her face.
¨You can have what seems like everything and have nothing at all.¨
¨I don´t understand still,^she said. She got up and started to walk to the living room.
¨Well,¨I said,¨If he comes to the gym I´ll try to talk to him tomorrow.
¨
Raul Perez made a few so-so defences of his world bantamweight title, then gave a shocking display against Greg "The Flea" Richardson and lost the belt.
This explains why.
Perez moved up in weight but was never the same.
Bennie
After Jibaro won the title it all went to his head. I knew the family(his father in law who was his trainer and I was coaching his brother in law in football in Tj).Jibaro Perex was like a lot of young Mexican fighters who couldn´t deal with prosperity. Him and Mando had the same compulsions when it came to breaking training. With Jibaro it was just a matter of time before he´d self destruct.
That was a truly great passage of writing, Dagos. What is Jibaro up to these days? And what is your opinion on Erik Morales.
Erik, deservedly, lost a lot of fans for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHnXzwgnTD4

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 02:57
by bennie
thomconn wrote:
dagosd2000 wrote:Pug
My father also told me the syndicate asked Ray Robinson to carry Charlie Fusari in their title match in Jersey City. I looked at the tape of that fight a few times. It did look like Robinson could take him out whenever he wanted,but it went 15.
I haven't seen the tape of the fight but Teddy Brenner in "Only the Ring Was Square" said that Robinson carried Fusari. This, supposedly, was the fight that resulted in Robinson being called "the greatest carrier since Mother Dionne." Brenner says that Fusari thought he was in a real fight but that his corner knew the deal. After several rounds, Fusari is said to have returned to his corner saying that he had Robinson "figured out" and would knock him out the next round. Knowing that Robinson would not let the fight go the distance if Fusari tried to hurt him, Fusari's cornermen nervously talked him out of trying to knock out Robinson--which would have resulted in Fusari being knocked out instead.
Brilliant. The cornermen earned their cut that night, if only for their tact.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 03:01
by bennie
Rick Farris wrote:
kikibalt wrote:Image
Mando and Sylvia Ramos
I shot this picture on April 12, 08, at the father and son luncheon.

When I spoke with Sylvia Ramos a couple days back, she told me that after Mando gave up alcohol and drugs, more than twenty-five years ago, he became a compulsive eater. Hence the former lightweight champ's weight gain. "Mando's appetite was ravenous", she daid, "I did my best to put a limit on his eating, but when Mando started to eat, he'd just keep eating. Although he was drug & alcohol free, he had cross-addicted to food." Although over-eating is more socially acceptable than drug addiction & alcoholism, the results can be equally fatal. Not long after Mando topped 200 pounds, he came down with diabetes, further complicating his health issues. The extra weight also put more stress on an already damaged spine.

-Rick Farris
I wondered about Mando's obvious weight gain, although you don't really want to say anything. I'm not sure when Mando really ballooned but he still looked good in pics in the early 1990s.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 03:04
by bennie
kikibalt wrote:Image
Sugar Ray Robinson & Jim Norris
Circa 1957
Robinson would also have been ill-advised to stand next to Norris in Chicago.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 03:20
by bennie
kikibalt wrote:Image
Sugar Ray Robinson & George Gainford
Rome, Italy, Circa 1964
Robinson came a long way from Black Bottom, Detroit. "Black because we lived there; bottom because that's where we were at," he once said.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 04:20
by bennie
Expug wrote:It would seem that fighters just have always been balls to the wall, go for it kinds of people. Not really moderate in certain endeavors.
Maybe not all of them but many.
When they do something, they do it with gusto. All the way.
I dont know, maybe I dont articulate it so well, but I think you guys know what I mean.
You're right, Expug. Moderation, tact, compromise - not for fighters! And thank God for that.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 04:26
by bennie
kikibalt wrote:Image
Image
Gross receipts $215,000 - in 1958. Fifty years on, how much would that be?

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 10:20
by kikibalt
dagosd2000 wrote:I know this is being discussed on another thread,but since it concerns Indian Red ,and I might as throw in Little Red,did they have any Mexican blood in them? They had the name Lopez,but they didn´t look Mexican and I don´t know if they spoke Spanish. Frank,Rick,one of you guys should know this.

I never knew the Lopez's to speak mush Spanish.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 10:21
by kikibalt
bennie wrote:
kikibalt wrote:Image
Image
Gross receipts $215,000 - in 1958. Fifty years on, how much would that be?

I can't count that high... :lol:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 10:35
by kikibalt
Rick Farris wrote:
kikibalt wrote:Image


Ironically, I'll see Vince Delgado tomorrow morning at a board meeting for the World Boxing Hall of Fame. In addition to being a fighter and long-time referee/judge, he's the nephhew of the late L.A. headliner Carlos Chavez. Chavez was a helluva lightweight in L.A. defeating Manuel Ortiz and Lauro Salas to name a few. In 1990, at age 68, Chavez was shot & killed in a street fight. Frank, Carlos Chavez was active before my time, however, I remember my uncle talking about him when I was a kid. I know you saw him fight and maybe boxed him in the gym? What are your memories of Chavez?

-Rick
Rick,

I seen Carlos Chavez fight a few times, Carlos was a pure boxer, he beat Art Aragon and in the re-match he went in the tank in the first round, and for the rest of his life he was bother by that, he could never forgive himself for doing so. Carlos had a brother that also fought pro, Al, Al fought most of his fights over sea's.

Look at their records and you will see that the Chavez's fought any and everybody, the young boxing fans like to say that we older guys like to live in the past, there most be a reason for that, and the reason is records like the Chavez's.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 12:07
by Rick Farris
dagosd2000 wrote:¨Now he doesn´t come home at night. ¨
Jibaro´s wife was breast feeding the baby with a blanket draped over her front.
¨Can´t you talk to hi^m?*¨
I remember when he was dating her. She was shy and pretty and fell for him hard. Her father was training him and also was on the managing end.
¨I´ll try,but what has your father said? ¨
¨He´s dying over this. He´s like a son to him. ¨
On the way up Jibaro was in the gym everyday. His wife announced that she was pregnant and everything seemed bright ahead . Jibaro won the title at the Auditorium in Tijuana and became the toast of the town. A good looking kid. Tall and dark. Full head of hair and a smile and personality that was irresistable. But almost immediately you could feel something going on. He celebrated all night and let his wife and father in law go back home without him. I looked at Jibaro´s wifw. She had gained weight from having the baby and the stress of it all was on her face. There was nothing romantic about the situation. It was gone.
¨You know,¨I said,¨He only listens to people that give him the wrong advice.¨
¨If he would only come home. I know if he sees the baby things will get better.¨
The baby was finished eating and was asleep. She wrapped the baby in the blanket and was rocking him slowly.
¨My brother wants to kill him. I´m worried.¨
¨Don´t believe that. Your brother wouldn´t want to leave his nephew without a father.¨
¨He told me that he would make a better father.¨
¨I´ll talk to Jibaro when he comes to the gym. I promise.¨
¨After he won the title we have less money than before.¨
Jibaro´s wife began to cry. Her mother came into the room and took the baby fom the mother´s arms.
¨Con permiso,¨she said. She took the baby,who was asleep into the living room.
^I thought after winning the championship we would have no more worries.¨
Jibaro´s wife stopped crying. It was like she couldn´t cry anymore.
¨It often happens that way,^
¨What way do you mean?¨she asked wiping her face.
¨You can have what seems like everything and have nothing at all.¨
¨I don´t understand still,^she said. She got up and started to walk to the living room.
¨Well,¨I said,¨If he comes to the gym I´ll try to talk to him tomorrow.
¨


Great story, Dagos. It's the human element that makes your stories so special. I also appreciate what you have learned from your father. A lot of guys try to tell of boxing's relationship with the "mob" and spread a lot of heresay, etc. When you write it, I trust it's source and the pieces to a puzzle all fit perfectly. Thank you, your posts educate me. You are a gifted teacher.

-Rick

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 12:10
by Rick Farris
kikibalt wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:
kikibalt wrote:Image


Ironically, I'll see Vince Delgado tomorrow morning at a board meeting for the World Boxing Hall of Fame. In addition to being a fighter and long-time referee/judge, he's the nephhew of the late L.A. headliner Carlos Chavez. Chavez was a helluva lightweight in L.A. defeating Manuel Ortiz and Lauro Salas to name a few. In 1990, at age 68, Chavez was shot & killed in a street fight. Frank, Carlos Chavez was active before my time, however, I remember my uncle talking about him when I was a kid. I know you saw him fight and maybe boxed him in the gym? What are your memories of Chavez?

-Rick
Rick,

I seen Carlos Chavez fight a few times, Carlos was a pure boxer, he beat Art Aragon and in the re-match he went in the tank in the first round, and for the rest of his life he was bother by that, he could never forgive himself for doing so. Carlos had a brother that also fought pro, Al, Al fought most of his fights over sea's.

Look at their records and you will see that the Chavez's fought any and everybody, the young boxing fans like to say that we older guys like to live in the past, there most be a reason for that, and the reason is records like the Chavez's.

Thanks, Frank. Like I said in a previous post to Dagos, you are furthering my education in REAL boxing history. Reading your memories ads color and personality to boxing. And by the way, today's boxing cannot be compared to what we had. Few fights today are truly competitive because so many fighters are protected, the times have also changed as has society. People's attitudes have changed and technology, etc. has taken the toughness and durability out of the humanity. In other words, we still have a few tough, skilled fighters, but most are just looking for a quick buck and once it ain't easy they get out. The sport of boxing is nothing like we grew up in, fights were a regular event, lots of hungry fighters willing to put their ass on the line and take a chance. Aileen Eaton and Parnasus knew the key for success was two legitimatly tough, well trained & talented fighters, matched in a bout where the audience didn't know who might win.

-Rick

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 14:26
by kikibalt
Rick Farris wrote:Rick,
I seen Carlos Chavez fight a few times, Carlos was a pure boxer, he beat Art Aragon and in the re-match he went in the tank in the first round, and for the rest of his life he was bother by that, he could never forgive himself for doing so. Carlos had a brother that also fought pro, Al, Al fought most of his fights over sea's.

Look at their records and you will see that the Chavez's fought any and everybody, the young boxing fans like to say that we older guys like to live in the past, there most be a reason for that, and the reason is records like the Chavez's.


Thanks, Frank. Like I said in a previous post to Dagos, you are furthering my education in REAL boxing history. Reading your memories ads color and personality to boxing. And by the way, today's boxing cannot be compared to what we had. Few fights today are truly competitive because so many fighters are protected, the times have also changed as has society. People's attitudes have changed and technology, etc. has taken the toughness and durability out of the humanity. In other words, we still have a few tough, skilled fighters, but most are just looking for a quick buck and once it ain't easy they get out. The sport of boxing is nothing like we grew up in, fights were a regular event, lots of hungry fighters willing to put their ass on the line and take a chance. Aileen Eaton and Parnasus knew the key for success was two legitimatly tough, well trained & talented fighters, matched in a bout where the audience didn't know who might win.

-Rick
Thanks Rick, for that nice compliment.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 12 Jul 2008, 14:36
by kikibalt
Waldner: Ramos far more than an ex-champ
By Mike Waldner, Sports Columnist

Mando Ramos died in his sleep Sunday.

It's impossible to write about Ramos without focusing on his boxing career, a meteoric career that flashed across the sports sky and flamed out in a classic example of self-destruction.

Or is it?

Sylvia, his wife of 32 years, now sadly his widow of four days, has other thoughts.

"He was such a good person," she said.

She wanted to talk about Ramos, her Mando, and yet it was hard.

"I feel like part of me was ripped out," she said softly.

So very hard.

"Mando was a good person," she said.

She paused.

"Oh, he could be a brat," she said.

She chuckled at the memories.

"But he was a sensitive person," she said. "We had so many good years."

These are the memories she treasures today.

"He liked to laugh," she said. "We've got pictures of him helping kids. They're all smiling in those pictures. They're happy pictures."

This is the man beyond the legend. Or after the legend.

This is the man who used his mistakes as examples for others to avoid with his Boxing Against Alcohol and Drugs nonprofit foundation (BAAD), as well as with organizations such as the Wilmington Teen Center and the Harbor Boxing Club in San Pedro.

He wanted some good to come from the bad he inflicted upon himself.

This is the boy from Long Beach who was one of the great sports stars of his time, if only for a short time, who grew up to be the man who lived in San Pedro for much of the past 40 years.
"Our granddaughter, Brittany, she's 19, one of four grandchildren, has been reading and downloading articles about Mando on the Internet," Sylvia said. "She said, `I knew he was a champion and all that, but I did not realize he was such a big celebrity. To me, he was just Grandpa."'

Just Grandpa was just about as good as they come in the ring, at 20 the world lightweight title holder.

How big was Ramos?

"His impact on the Mexican community was as big as Fernando Valenzuela and Oscar De La Hoya," said Randy Gray, the Daily Breeze boxing writer when Ramos was on top of the world.

Gray remembers John Hall, a knowledgeable, veteran reporter and columnist on the boxing beat, offering the opinion that Ramos was, for a short time, the world's best pound-for-pound fighter.

Van Barbieri, a San Pedro native, was the publicist for the Olympic Auditorium during the Ramos era.

How good was Ramos at his peak?

"To tell the truth, he never reached his peak," Barbieri said.

Too much too soon, too little discipline. Far too little discipline.

Those were the general problems.

Booze and drugs. Those were the specific problems.

It's what can happen when you're young, think you're bulletproof and have no concept of reality.

Some say Ramos did not train. He did train. Just not any harder than necessary. Then he partied harder. Much harder.

The hands were cobra quick. His courage was unlimited.

On top of this, he was movie-star handsome and as charismatic as they come. Boxing old-timers will tell you the arch in Southern California goes from the original "Golden Boy" Art Aragon to Ramos to De La Hoya.

Think Sugar Ray, Robinson and Leonard.

The sweet science has more than its share of sad stories. Ramos is right up there at the top. Champ at 20 with a 15-round TKO in February 1969 over Carlos Teo Cruz in the Coliseum. Over the hill and on his way to becoming a punching bag in about two years. He did not retire until 17 days short of his 27th birthday.

Dead at 59.

"It was a great waste of a great boxing talent," Barbieri said. "He had it all: looks, talent and personality. Everybody liked him."

Gray agrees.

"He always seemed at ease, friendly and respectful," he said. "He wasn't blustery or boastful. But he didn't seem to be driven to achieve success."

What happened was success chewed him up and spit him out.

Why discuss what went wrong now that he's gone?

Because he devoted the later years of his life to trying to help others understand what not to do. That's what Ramos wanted.

It's like the tribute they're planning to hold for him on July 18 at the Longshoreman's Memorial Hall in Wilmington from 4-8 p.m.

"We'll have a buffet," Sylvia said. "We'll show film clips of his career and some interviews with him. People will be able to talk about him if they wish. You can stay for five minutes or for four hours."

The salute to his life as well as his career is open to the public.

"We're not going to have a funeral or a service," Sylvia said. "We're going to have an open house. This is what Mando wanted."

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