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Great tune!!!!!

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 19:57

DrDuke wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 14:39 Walcott's actions a bit spoiled everything for Sonny, but Liston had still succeeded in his venture, as we know.

Yeah.... The referee SHOULD have been in the process of awarding the fight to Liston by DQ -- because NO OTHER BOXER in the HISTORY OF MARQUIS OF QUEENSBERRY World Heavyweight Title Fights DEFIED a referee's repeated orders like Ali did.

It's like you've gone hysterical, and have lost the ability to reason. This is completely goofy statement. With a heaping helping of gobbledeegook. Now take a deep breath and get back in the game.

Excuse me sir, what time is it?

"first you mine the ores to smelt into these metals...then you create cogs and such to arrange in definitive orders to react in such a timely fashion as to..."

...excuse... me...what...time...is...it...

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:08 Excuse me sir, what time is it?

"first you mine the ores to smelt into these metals...then you create cogs and such to arrange in definitive orders to react in such a timely fashion as to..."

...excuse... me...what...time...is...it...

I get it

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:11

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:08 Excuse me sir, what time is it?

"first you mine the ores to smelt into these metals...then you create cogs and such to arrange in definitive orders to react in such a timely fashion as to..."

...excuse... me...what...time...is...it...

I get it

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:06

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 19:57

DrDuke wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 14:39 Walcott's actions a bit spoiled everything for Sonny, but Liston had still succeeded in his venture, as we know.

Yeah.... The referee SHOULD have been in the process of awarding the fight to Liston by DQ -- because NO OTHER BOXER in the HISTORY OF MARQUIS OF QUEENSBERRY World Heavyweight Title Fights DEFIED a referee's repeated orders like Ali did.

It's like you've gone hysterical, and have lost the ability to reason. This is completely goofy statement. With a heaping helping of gobbledeegook. Now take a deep breath and get back in the game.

My good man. You say "have lost the ability to reason" as if he ever showed that he had it in the first place

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:12

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:06

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 19:57

Yeah.... The referee SHOULD have been in the process of awarding the fight to Liston by DQ -- because NO OTHER BOXER in the HISTORY OF MARQUIS OF QUEENSBERRY World Heavyweight Title Fights DEFIED a referee's repeated orders like Ali did.

It's like you've gone hysterical, and have lost the ability to reason. This is completely goofy statement. With a heaping helping of gobbledeegook. Now take a deep breath and get back in the game.

My good man. You say "have lost the ability to reason" as if he ever showed that he had it in the first place

and there's that!

It's not about reading his mind, it's about recognizing his history. The man was the IBC personified. The man's entire career functioned in the nefarious shadows of the game.

And then there's the whole 'up and down' thing too. (The entire auditorium stunk that day.)

Yea, the special treatment Ali got was part of that stink; that doesn't mean the other man wasn't trying to lay down. We would have had a nice quiet Marciano-Walcott II if Ali had just behaved himself.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:06

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 19:57

DrDuke wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 14:39 Walcott's actions a bit spoiled everything for Sonny, but Liston had still succeeded in his venture, as we know.

Yeah.... The referee SHOULD have been in the process of awarding the fight to Liston by DQ -- because NO OTHER BOXER in the HISTORY OF MARQUIS OF QUEENSBERRY World Heavyweight Title Fights DEFIED a referee's repeated orders like Ali did.

It's like you've gone hysterical, and have lost the ability to reason. This is completely goofy statement. With a heaping helping of gobbledeegook. Now take a deep breath and get back in the game.

BuzzBox... find another boxer in a Heavyweight Title Fight who got away with defying the referee's repeated orders to go to a neutral corner or do anything else.... If you can't shut that stupid hole in your face... You reason as well as a carrot.

APerno wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:18 It's not about reading his mind, it's about recognizing his history. The man was the IBC personified. The man's entire career functioned in the nefarious shadows of the game.

And then there's the whole 'up and down' thing too. (The entire auditorium stunk that day.)

Yea, the special treatment Ali got was part of that stink; that doesn't mean the other man wasn't trying to lay down. We would have had a nice quiet Marciano-Walcott II if Ali had just behaved himself.

Pure speculation which is absolutely unwarranted .... You cannot divine the future.... Ali should have been DQ'd.

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:24

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:06

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 19:57

Yeah.... The referee SHOULD have been in the process of awarding the fight to Liston by DQ -- because NO OTHER BOXER in the HISTORY OF MARQUIS OF QUEENSBERRY World Heavyweight Title Fights DEFIED a referee's repeated orders like Ali did.

It's like you've gone hysterical, and have lost the ability to reason. This is completely goofy statement. With a heaping helping of gobbledeegook. Now take a deep breath and get back in the game.

BuzzBox... find another boxer in a Heavyweight Title Fight who got away with defying the referee's repeated orders to go to a neutral corner or do anything else.... If you can't shut that stupid hole in your face... You reason as well as a carrot.

Um, Dempsey?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:12

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:06

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 19:57

Yeah.... The referee SHOULD have been in the process of awarding the fight to Liston by DQ -- because NO OTHER BOXER in the HISTORY OF MARQUIS OF QUEENSBERRY World Heavyweight Title Fights DEFIED a referee's repeated orders like Ali did.

It's like you've gone hysterical, and have lost the ability to reason. This is completely goofy statement. With a heaping helping of gobbledeegook. Now take a deep breath and get back in the game.

My good man. You say "have lost the ability to reason" as if he ever showed that he had it in the first place

Shut your face ignorant ass.... You're the dumbest A-hole I've ever encountered.

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:28

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:12

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:06


It's like you've gone hysterical, and have lost the ability to reason. This is completely goofy statement. With a heaping helping of gobbledeegook. Now take a deep breath and get back in the game.

My good man. You say "have lost the ability to reason" as if he ever showed that he had it in the first place

Shut your face ignorant ass.... You're the dumbest A-hole I've ever encountered.

hey!!! I'm hurt, I thought I was the dumbest A-hole you ever encountered!!

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:26

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:24

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:06


It's like you've gone hysterical, and have lost the ability to reason. This is completely goofy statement. With a heaping helping of gobbledeegook. Now take a deep breath and get back in the game.

BuzzBox... find another boxer in a Heavyweight Title Fight who got away with defying the referee's repeated orders to go to a neutral corner or do anything else.... If you can't shut that stupid hole in your face... You reason as well as a carrot.

Um, Dempsey?

The count was suspended and he headed for a neutral corner in 4 seconds... As soon as he understood the order.... Also the rule was fairly new at that time and Dempsey wasn't being defiant... Ali was very familiar with the rule...

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:37

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:26

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:24

BuzzBox... find another boxer in a Heavyweight Title Fight who got away with defying the referee's repeated orders to go to a neutral corner or do anything else.... If you can't shut that stupid hole in your face... You reason as well as a carrot.

Um, Dempsey?

The count was suspended and he headed for a neutral corner in 4 seconds... As soon as he understood the order.

Just joshin' ya...just joshin ya'...

Break, and fight clean! Pound the fu*k out of the other guy's opinion, lay off the personal sh*t.

Right I agree with that sentiment... Gilgmesh and BuzzBox don't.

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:26 Pure speculation which is absolutely unwarranted .... You cannot divine the future

Then you are saying there in no point in knowing a man's history.

Let's say you hire an ex-con... He's a good employee for 10 years... You still decide he going to rob you blind tomorrow??? Particularly since Liston got up and resumed fighting... Under the rules of Boxing he was STILL IN THE FIGHT!!!! The neutral corner rule was tossed out the window and NOBODY ever talks about that... Liston was screwed to death.

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:28

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:12

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:06


It's like you've gone hysterical, and have lost the ability to reason. This is completely goofy statement. With a heaping helping of gobbledeegook. Now take a deep breath and get back in the game.

My good man. You say "have lost the ability to reason" as if he ever showed that he had it in the first place

Shut your face ignorant ass.... You're the dumbest A-hole I've ever encountered.

Right back at ya KalKutta

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:45 Let's say you hire an ex-con... He's a good employee for 10 years... You still decide he going to rob you blind tomorrow??? Particularly since Liston got up and resumed fighting... Under the rules of Boxing he was STILL IN THE FIGHT!!!! The neutral corner rule was tossed out the window and NOBODY ever talks about that... Liston was screwed to death.

I've literally NEVER seen anybody DQ'd for not going to the Neutral Corner. The count might be delayed, but I've never seen a Disqualification come as a result of that. You saying Ali should've been DQ'ed not only is uncalled for it would've been unprecedented in the sport.

Cus D'Amato November 1965: "[there is] a distinct possibility that I could make Liston the heavyweight champion again if he divests himself of the people around him and the mental distractions they cause."

Kalan wrote: ↑04 May 2018, 21:45 Let's say you hire an ex-con... He's a good employee for 10 years... You still decide he going to rob you blind tomorrow???

But Sonny Liston didn't have ten years of good behavior, right from the start he was the IBC's move to take over the heavyweight crown and with it boxing.

Lets go to the obvious, I bet you think that Clay being blinded in the first fight was an accident., right? -- Wrong!

This man was mixed up with the hard guys his whole career. Frankie Carbo's Wikipedia page has a sub topic entitled Sonny Liston.

Come on! -- Sonny Liston is a sub-topic on Carbo's page, try to get real about the guy.

Anyone who stands close to these people gets dirty, they don't let you stay clean; you're no use to them clean.

Sonny Liston

By 1959, Carbo and his partner Blinky Palermo owned a majority interest in the contract of heavyweight boxer Sonny Liston, who went on to win the World Heavyweight Championship in 1962. From the start of his pro career in 1953, Liston had been "owned" by St. Louis mobster John Vitale, who continued to own a stake in the boxer. At the time Palermo and Carbo acquired their interest in Liston, the notorious Carbo was imprisoned on Rikers Island, having been convicted of the undercover management of prize-fighters and unlicensed matchmaking.

According to both FBI and newspaper reports, Vitale and other mobsters "reportedly controlled Liston's contract",[7] with Vitale owning approximately twelve percent.[8] Liston fought 12 fights under the control of Carbo and Palermo.

Man, I hate to change the subject, but I've just had an epiphany.

After giving this thread some thought, and considering other things that have been said on this forum in the past., I think I've figured this out. If Wilt Chamberlain had been the referee on that fateful day, we wouldn't be dealing with all this silly confusion.

From his mighty height, he could have seen everything that was going on in that arena, and made the right call at the right time, and in precisely the right manner. He would have told Nat to shut up and sit down and Sonny would have gotten up, carried on and eventually ran out of gas, and sputtered to an ignominious end in the later rounds. Making this fight a rather boring review.

I'll go out on a limb here to say that Had Wilt Chamberlain refereed just one single solitary bout, in the entire history of boxing, All other referees would have benefited, and probably made their calls correctly in all situations from that point forward. That's how enlightening and luminescent he was as a referee. Which is perhaps an area of expertise on Wilt's part that had gone heretofore completely without assessment. I don't why I hadn't thought this out before now.

Would have save us all a lot of time.

I know I'm not alone when I state that he was the best referee in the history of boxing. Regardless of whether he acturally officiated a single solitary round.

Now as far as Sonny Liston vs Anthony Joshua........I would give Joshua a slight edge at this point.

Godwin's law II is an Internet adage that asserts that "As an online discussion [on BoxRec] grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving [Chamberlain] approaches . . .”