Classic American West Coast Boxing

bennie
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by bennie »

kikibalt wrote:
Randyman wrote:
Expug wrote:Welcome Randy.
Im looking forward to your contributions.
Your friends who post here are outstanding guys.
Birds of a feather...
Thanks Pug, glad to be here. All of you guys have a passion for boxing. My kinda guys! What a great site.
Randy
Randy,

This is by no means a great forum, to many nuts on this site, most of us here on this thread stay away for the rest of the threads, beware!
Fortunately, we also have The Sweeney on the board, guys who don't give the nuts an inch.
Collins2000 is Detective Inspector Regan.
bollox
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by bollox »

What a great show The Sweeney was :TU: "oi you, you're nicked son" :x
bennie
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by bennie »

Aye, Regan, Carter, Haskins... Great stuff. The West Coast boys won't know The Sweeney; Scotland Yard is on the West Coast, ain't it?
kikibalt
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

I received this email from Denise Fraser on her dad Don who as I posted earlier is in the hospital.


Hi Frank,

I've been meaning to call you. Life has been crazy....
My Dad is doing better. He went into the hospital last Sunday. He has Tic douloureux. It is a facial neuralgia. He has not been able to talk or eat. However, he was better today. He wanted me to get in touch with you. He says Calif. Boxing Hall if Fame is a go for 2009.

Please pray for a speedy recovery.

My Best,
Denise
kikibalt
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

bennie wrote:Randy,

This is by no means a great forum, to many nuts on this site, most of us here on this thread stay away for the rest of the threads, beware!

Fortunately, we also have The Sweeney on the board, guys who don't give the nuts an inch.
Collins2000 is Detective Inspector Regan.

Collind2000 is top dog when it come to sniffing out the nuts, love that Collins... :D :D
kikibalt
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

Farewell to a Popular Champion: Armando “Mando” Ramos
By Dan Hernandez
Ringside Report.com
Image
“Mando sold out the Olympic Auditorium in his ninth pro fight. He could have been Oscar De La Hoya.”--Famed Boxing Promoter, Don Chagrin

Born in Long Beach, California, on November 15, 1948, “Mando” as he was best known, died unexpectedly at his home in San Pedro, California, on July 6, 2008. He was one of the most popular and crowd-pleasing fighters in Southern California in the 1960s.

Mando began fighting at the age of nine and had a very successful amateur career before turning professional at the tender age of 17. He used a forged birth certificate to obtain his boxing license, suffering a suspension when the ruse was found out, resuming his career and becoming the youngest World Lightweight Champion in history when he was victorious over Carlos “Teo” Cruz by an 11th round knockout in February 1969. He had one successful defense before losing his belt to Ismael Laguna in 1970. He regained the WBC version of the lightweight title by winning over Pedro Carrasco in 1971, and lost this championship to Chango Carmona in 1972. He was knocked out in the last few fights of his career, retiring in 1975, just shy of his 27th birthday.

Mando was as well known for his partying ways and playboy lifestyle as he was for his slam-bang boxing style. He had been quoted as saying: “I never really trained” and “I went to the gym every day, but I drank and partied every night.” The consensus is that Mando could have been an all-time great; he had all the boxing tools, and in addition had movie star good looks, and flamboyance.

Instead of maintaining the star status he earned, he fell into a serious drug and alcohol addiction in the 1970’s. He was able to overcome these addictions in the decades following and founded “Boxing Against Alcohol and Drugs,” B.A.D.D. Organization, and was active the rest of his life with the development of young fighters. Ramos was inducted into the World Hall of Fame in 1988 and participated in many of their events.

It was at the World Hall of Fame ceremonies in Ontario, California, last year that I was able to meet and share some time with him and see the caring well-intentioned man he had become. He was particularly affable and gracious to his many well wishing fans. At this meeting, it was clear that the Type 2 Diabetes and years of hard living had taken its toll in his speech and in necessitating a cane to negotiate through the crowd. It is to my regret that the intended interview we had discussed never materialized.

In speaking with an RSR Reader and California Boxing Hall of Fame resident, Frank Baltazar, SR., regarding the passing of Ramos, he responded with: “I knew Mando since he was 15 years old and won the Junior Golden Glove Tournament in El Monte, California…he was always a nice kid.” Frank also recalled: “His trainer, the great Jackie McCoy, was a shy kind of guy that didn’t do much bragging, but Jackie came up to me and said: ‘Come and see my new fighter, I’m really high on him.’” That fighter was Mando Ramos. That was high praise indeed from Jackie McCoy.

Hall of fame Promoter, Don Chagrin told me that Mando was a “super nice young man” that just loved to party as much as he loved to box. He said: “Mando was his own worst enemy, he would miss many a weigh-in, even the one for his title fight with Chango Carmona, because he was out all night.” Chagrin added: “He had it all…good fighter, big punch, and good looks. He sold out the Olympic Auditorium, 10,000 people, in only his ninth pro fight and was every bit as good looking as Oscar De La Hoya. He could have been Oscar De La Hoya.”

To put Mando’s popularity in perspective, at the time that superstar athletes like Baseball’s Mickey Mantle and Football’s Joe Namath were earning 100k per season, young Ramos was the world’s highest paid teenager at an average purse of 100k per fight. Only “The Greatest,” Muhammad Ali, commanded larger paydays. Mando was a 2-Time World Champion, fought 10 world title fights and earned millions of dollars. He had a full life and will be fondly remembered.

Mando Ramos
Division: Lightweight
Professional Record: 37-11-1, 23 KO's

Date Opponent Location Result

1965-11-18 Berlin Roberts Los Angeles, USA W PTS 5
1965-12-02 Chuey Loera Los Angeles, USA W KO 4

1966-01-27 Berlin Roberts Los Angeles, USA W KO 1
1966-03-03 Fidel Cruz Los Angeles, USA W KO 3
1966-03-17 Jose Barrera Los Angeles, USA W KO 2
1966-05-12 Bosco Basilio Los Angeles, USA W UD 6
1966-06-23 Jerry Stevens Los Angeles, USA W KO 1
1966-07-07 Joey Aguilar Los Angeles, USA W KO 8
1966-07-21 Ray Coleman Los Angeles, USA W TKO 6
1966-08-11 Manny Linson Los Angeles, USA W KO 2
1966-09-08 Jorge Baby Salazar Los Angeles, USA W UD 10
1966-10-13 Allen Syers Los Angeles, USA W TKO 5
1966-11-17 Al Franklin Los Angeles, USA W UD 10
1966-11-28 Al Franklin Oakland, USA W KO 4

1967-01-12 Ray Echevarria Los Angeles, USA W UD 10
1967-03-30 Pete Gonzalez Los Angeles, USA W UD 10
1967-06-22 Len Kesey Los Angeles, USA W TKO 5
1967-07-06 Kang Il Suh Los Angeles, USA L UD 10
1967-08-15 Alex Luna Sacramento, USA W TKO 2
1967-09-14 Eliseo Estrada Los Angeles, USA W TKO 5
1967-10-05 Frankie Crawford Los Angeles, USA L MD 10

1968-02-01 Frankie Crawford Los Angeles, USA W UD 10
1968-05-02 Phil Garcia Los Angeles, USA W KO 9
1968-06-20 Hiroshi Kobayashi Los Angeles, USA W UD 10
1968-09-27 Carlos Teo Cruz Los Angeles, USA L UD 15
WBC Lightweight Title
WBA Lightweight Title
1968-10-29 Billy Coleman San Antonio, USA W TKO 3
1968-12-12 Beau Jaynes Los Angeles, USA W TKO 2

1969-02-18 Carlos Teo Cruz Los Angeles, USA W TKO 11
WBC Lightweight Title
WBA Lightweight Title
1969-05-20 Jerry Graci Honolulu, USA W TKO 7
1969-10-04 Yoshiaki Numata Los Angeles, USA W KO 6
WBC Lightweight Title
WBA Lightweight Title

1970-01-13 Leonardo Aquero San Antonio, USA W UD 10
1970-03-03 Ismael Laguna Los Angeles, USA L TKO 9
WBC Lightweight Title
WBA Lightweight Title
1970-08-06 Sugar Ramos Los Angeles, USA W SD 10
1970-12-10 Raul Rojas Los Angeles, USA W KO 6

1971-09-30 Ruben Navarro Los Angeles, USA W UD 10
1971-11-05 Pedro Carrasco Madrid, Spain L DQ 12
Vacant WBC Lightweight Title

1972-02-18 Pedro Carrasco Los Angeles, USA W SD 15
WBC Lightweight Title
1972-06-28 Pedro Carrasco Madrid, Spain W SD 15
WBC Lightweight Title
1972-09-15 Chango Carmona Los Angeles, USA L TKO 8
WBC Lightweight Title

1973-08-09 Arturo Pineda Los Angeles, USA L KO 5

1974-05-03 Jaroslav Travnik Vienna, Austria D PTS 8
1974-05-10 Mi Whan Kim Luebeck, Germany W TKO 2
1974-05-16 Arpad Magyar Germany W KO 4
1974-06-03 Wolfgang Gans Luebeck, Germany L KO 2
1974-07-12 Wolfgang Gans Palma de Mallorca, Spain L TKO 5

1975-07-30 Tony Martinez Las Vegas, USA L SD 10
1975-09-02 Al Franklin Oklahoma City, USA W PTS 10
1975-10-15 Antonio Leyva Las Vegas, USA W KO 7
1975-10-29 Wayne Beale Las Vegas, USA L KO 2
bennie
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by bennie »

Did Frankie get his bad back from working on the docks?
raylawpc
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by raylawpc »

kikibalt wrote:I received this email from Denise Fraser on her dad Don who as I posted earlier is in the hospital.


Hi Frank,

I've been meaning to call you. Life has been crazy....
My Dad is doing better. He went into the hospital last Sunday. He has Tic douloureux. It is a facial neuralgia. He has not been able to talk or eat. However, he was better today. He wanted me to get in touch with you. He says Calif. Boxing Hall if Fame is a go for 2009.

Please pray for a speedy recovery.

My Best,
Denise
Wow, that's really bad news. Tic douloureux is also known as trigeminal neuralgia - a severe, mind-numbing pain to the face and jaw. There is no known cure. I have a client with this condition. He will go months with no symptoms, and then suddenly have an intense attack that will debilitate him with several days of terrible, excruciating pain - so bad that he can neither talk, eat, nor even move during the attack. Fortunately, there are medications that can relieve the pain during an attack. The good news for Don is that an attack leave no permanent damage once it has passed.

If Don's suffering is anything like that my client experiences, we all need to keep him in our prayers! He is really going through some severe discomfort right now.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by scartissue »

Frank
Like many of the regulars on the West Coast thread,I think the programs that you post on this site are the best snapshots that the fan can learn how the "feel" was like in the '50's.Not only about boxing,but how America had a honest toughness . I know there are a lot of books about the history of boxing. Anthologies,"ghost written" autobiographies. Biographies as well. But the best stuff in my book that tells the story of boxing is reading the old columns in the papers. The old Ring Magazines and The Sporting News are good examples.Your old fight programs are classics .They have a swagger.a rough style. Big and loud. Man's reading.

I know many American writers honed their teeth reading about boxing in the papers and the sports journals of the period.The old Ring Magazines with writers like Nat Fleischer and Sam Taub(Up And Down Old Broadway).Fighters and referess would have a column. I remember reading stuff by Tony Zale and Ruby Goldstein. They brought their "day" with them when they told a story. I know Hemingway,Lardner,Jack London,Damon Runyan,and O'Henry formed a lot af their style of writing from reading the old sports writers. It was an era of boxing,baseball,and horse racing. Those old reporters and announcers were THE BEST. We get a taste of that again when you post those old boxing programs.

Larry Merrchant,Howard,Jim Lampley,you guys could have learned how to write and tell a story about the Sweet Science by learning from the old timers. Instead you really



Roger, you're right. Today's ringside announcers & boxing writers are a sad lot. They put no emotion or humanity in their writing, just facts & figures. Sadly, everybody who has watched a few HBO/showtime fights on TV considerrs themselves a "historian." In reality, most are moderatly educated fans, who have no clue what really goes on in the ring. Most of today's so-called "trainers" would have been kicked out of any Eastside L.A. backyard gym a few decades back. Many have NEVER actually tied on a club and competed. How would they know what to tell a young boxer. "Keep your hands up?", "Jab?" , what they know about a jab they learned listening to the wisdom of a Jim Lampley. They laugh at us on a thread like this, because these pretenders are raking in money, spreading nothing but crap. Look at today's sad, sad, heavyweight division. But let's get back to the writers. Every major boxing publication isn't worth the paper it's printed on, in fact, it deserves no better place in my house than lining for the bottom of my wifes parrot cage. What boring, unoriginal CRAP! Nothing discriptive, they just try to tell you what you already watched, this guy won the first round, that guy one the second . . . and one guy got floored in this round . . and on and on. Antonio Tarver is great because he KOed a guy who HBO promoted as the best ever. Shit, that Florida bum (both of them) should be shot for impersonating an all-time great and the idiots that promoted them imprisoned as an accessory to the crime. Sadly, kids watch today, and they believe what they are seeing is real.

In a future post, I might come out and say how I really feel . . . aside from that guys, have a great day!

-Rick[/quote]

Rick and Dago, for a guy who never wanted to end up like one of these guys who live in the past, don't follow the sport anymore and sit in their rocking chairs whining how, "the fighters in my day...", I have strangely inched my way closer to that boxing abyss. I have had real issues stepping back from that edge with what is churned out lately. You guys hit the nail on the head with your issues of fighters, trainers, writers, magazines and fans. I remember when I was in my teens rolling my eyes at some of Nat Fleischer's works. I just thought he was pigeon-holed in the turn of the century with his picks of who he felt were the greatest of all-time and how he seemed to scoff at anything post roaring 20s and heaven forbid, a fighter who could successfully fight with his hands at his sides and predict rounds when opponents would fall. Out of the norm seemed to go against the grain with him and his creaking chair sidekicks whom he had writing at Ring mag. However, today I have a greater appreciation of days gone by. I really enjoy reading Nat's old articles. I may not agree with their content but I have become partial to his lively style of writing. A paragraph containing his colorful metaphors and references to 'bash boulevard' and the great 'ballyhoo' which may follow a promotion, are sadly lacking in writing today. Likewise the fighters. I almost puked the day in a post fight interview DeLaHoya telling Merchant how "rounds 11 and 12 are what we call the championship rounds." I was screaming at the TV like a lunatic, "That's rounds 11 through 15 you candyass!" Magazines too have changed. Man, I would pick up a monthly slew of Ring, World and International boxing and would subscribe to England's Boxing News. When Harry Mullan passed away, BN was never the same. World and International passed and today I only seem to pick up Ring when it has a really sound historical piece in it. But just when I think they're losing me, A Marquez-Vasquez bout just sucks me back in or the anticipation of Cotto-Margarito. Maybe we've not grown critical, just pickier.

Scartissue
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

bennie wrote:Did Frankie get his bad back from working on the docks?
Do you mean Mando?, if so, yes, he got hurt working at the docks.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by bennie »

Sorry, Frankie, I did mean Mando. :oops:


Thanks.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by raylawpc »

scartissue wrote:Frank
Like many of the regulars on the West Coast thread,I think the programs that you post on this site are the best snapshots that the fan can learn how the "feel" was like in the '50's.Not only about boxing,but how America had a honest toughness . I know there are a lot of books about the history of boxing. Anthologies,"ghost written" autobiographies. Biographies as well. But the best stuff in my book that tells the story of boxing is reading the old columns in the papers. The old Ring Magazines and The Sporting News are good examples.Your old fight programs are classics .They have a swagger.a rough style. Big and loud. Man's reading.

I know many American writers honed their teeth reading about boxing in the papers and the sports journals of the period.The old Ring Magazines with writers like Nat Fleischer and Sam Taub(Up And Down Old Broadway).Fighters and referess would have a column. I remember reading stuff by Tony Zale and Ruby Goldstein. They brought their "day" with them when they told a story. I know Hemingway,Lardner,Jack London,Damon Runyan,and O'Henry formed a lot af their style of writing from reading the old sports writers. It was an era of boxing,baseball,and horse racing. Those old reporters and announcers were THE BEST. We get a taste of that again when you post those old boxing programs.

Larry Merrchant,Howard,Jim Lampley,you guys could have learned how to write and tell a story about the Sweet Science by learning from the old timers. Instead you really



Roger, you're right. Today's ringside announcers & boxing writers are a sad lot. They put no emotion or humanity in their writing, just facts & figures. Sadly, everybody who has watched a few HBO/showtime fights on TV considerrs themselves a "historian." In reality, most are moderatly educated fans, who have no clue what really goes on in the ring. Most of today's so-called "trainers" would have been kicked out of any Eastside L.A. backyard gym a few decades back. Many have NEVER actually tied on a club and competed. How would they know what to tell a young boxer. "Keep your hands up?", "Jab?" , what they know about a jab they learned listening to the wisdom of a Jim Lampley. They laugh at us on a thread like this, because these pretenders are raking in money, spreading nothing but crap. Look at today's sad, sad, heavyweight division. But let's get back to the writers. Every major boxing publication isn't worth the paper it's printed on, in fact, it deserves no better place in my house than lining for the bottom of my wifes parrot cage. What boring, unoriginal CRAP! Nothing discriptive, they just try to tell you what you already watched, this guy won the first round, that guy one the second . . . and one guy got floored in this round . . and on and on. Antonio Tarver is great because he KOed a guy who HBO promoted as the best ever. Shit, that Florida bum (both of them) should be shot for impersonating an all-time great and the idiots that promoted them imprisoned as an accessory to the crime. Sadly, kids watch today, and they believe what they are seeing is real.

In a future post, I might come out and say how I really feel . . . aside from that guys, have a great day!

-Rick
Rick and Dago, for a guy who never wanted to end up like one of these guys who live in the past, don't follow the sport anymore and sit in their rocking chairs whining how, "the fighters in my day...", I have strangely inched my way closer to that boxing abyss. I have had real issues stepping back from that edge with what is churned out lately. You guys hit the nail on the head with your issues of fighters, trainers, writers, magazines and fans. I remember when I was in my teens rolling my eyes at some of Nat Fleischer's works. I just thought he was pigeon-holed in the turn of the century with his picks of who he felt were the greatest of all-time and how he seemed to scoff at anything post roaring 20s and heaven forbid, a fighter who could successfully fight with his hands at his sides and predict rounds when opponents would fall. Out of the norm seemed to go against the grain with him and his creaking chair sidekicks whom he had writing at Ring mag. However, today I have a greater appreciation of days gone by. I really enjoy reading Nat's old articles. I may not agree with their content but I have become partial to his lively style of writing. A paragraph containing his colorful metaphors and references to 'bash boulevard' and the great 'ballyhoo' which may follow a promotion, are sadly lacking in writing today. Likewise the fighters. I almost puked the day in a post fight interview DeLaHoya telling Merchant how "rounds 11 and 12 are what we call the championship rounds." I was screaming at the TV like a lunatic, "That's rounds 11 through 15 you candyass!" Magazines too have changed. Man, I would pick up a monthly slew of Ring, World and International boxing and would subscribe to England's Boxing News. When Harry Mullan passed away, BN was never the same. World and International passed and today I only seem to pick up Ring when it has a really sound historical piece in it. But just when I think they're losing me, A Marquez-Vasquez bout just sucks me back in or the anticipation of Cotto-Margarito. Maybe we've not grown critical, just pickier.

Scartissue[/quote]

There was also a method to Fleischer's madness. If you pick only turn-of-the-century fighters at the top in each category, who is going to dispute you? At the time Fleischer put those lists together, films of those guys were either unavailable or rarely seen, so who was going to argue with him? Also, by picking the old-timers, it makes you sound like a real historian which, of course, wasn't Fleischer's primary pursuit.

The interesting thing is that Fleischer was born too late to see many of the guys he listed as No. 1 on his lists.

It became very interesting when Jim Jacobs began collecting and viewing those old films, and suddenly they became available on 8 mm where more and more people could see them. I recall a "debate" between Fleischer and Jacobs in the Ring Magazine, circa 1970, in which Jacobs really took apart Fleischer's opinion that "older is better," based on his film studies.

It was funny to me that Fleischer's response to Jacobs' argument was that the cameras were bad back then and, besides, "I know what I saw and what I remember." Problem is, he didn't see a number of the guys he put at the top.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Febuary is a cold month down at the beach. You look out at the ocean and it's not too inviting like it is in the summer. But along the cliffs the waves are big during winter months. Surfers,good and bad,want to go out there.The North Swell only comes through during the winter time.The waves are big. In summer the water is around 70,but there's little surf. A lot of people in the water in the summer.

It was a cold Febuary night. So black outside you couldn't see the ocean. You could here the waves breaking on the shore. No moon. No light. Ocean Beach was pretty empty. I was going to go home,but decided to stop at the Arizona. Radovich's place was a block from the beach. Everything looked dead. Parked right in front of the place. It was cold. Shivering cold. I wanted to get inside and drink something to warm me up.

I couldn't believe it. First time I saw the Arizona empty. No one. Not even one of the regilars that sits at their end of the bar by the back door. If you're not part of the old guard,you don't sit at that end. You do, and you won't get served by the bartender. i also couldn't believe who was behind the bar,but Geurge Radovich himself. He was watching the television by the back door. The sound was off. Some sort of sport news was on.
"Hey,George . What's the deal? No one wants to drink with you tonight?"
"Roger. How's it goin'? Naw, Reddick needed the night off so I'm fillin' in. Besides they all know I won't set anyone up on the house. That's how you lose money and people expect it from you."
George took over the bar from his father who passed away a while back. The family got their start in Arizona so the bar was aptly named.

"Give me a bourbon with water back."
"Good boy. Stay away from the soda pop. Gives you a head in the morning."
George wasn't watching the television anymore. George poured me a good one and put a glass of water next to it.
"Going to watch the Padres in the Series, George?"
"Yeah,McDonald has a skybox. I'll be there."
Around the walls of the bar were a lot of old black and white photographs of the bar and the regulars having a good time. Some were dead and some had gotten old so you wouldn't be able to connect their faces with those old photographs.
"George ,Tony told me a lot of Bob Murphy stories."
There a lot of pictures of Murphy on the wall.
"They're famous.,"said George.
"Irish" Bob Murphy was handle by George in the amateurs after he got out of the Navy. George turned him over to Travis Hatfield when Murphy turned pro,but when those two were in town they frequented the Arizona like a hime away from home.
"Why didn't you want to manage Murphy as a pro?"
George turned off the TV.
"Too many headaches. He liked to drink and besides he was out on the Coast. The big fights in his weight were back East. I wasn't connected. "
"He fought Maxim for the title didn't he?"
Yeah. Maxim couldn't break an egg and Murphy is 2 to 1 and he lost. The fight was in New York."
"You saying it wasn't on the level."
"I don't know. Murphy had trouble with a good boxer and Maxim had him confused that night."

George asked me if I wanted another Old Taylor. I said one was my limit.
"George ,they say Murphy didn't like Italians. Once tried to fight Marciano in a restaurant."
"Murphy didn't like himself. How could he like anyone,"George laughed.
"He got in a lot of fights in here didn't he."
"He had a few. He was a real nice guy when he was sober. But he was a bad drunk. And he liked drinkin' more than people."
"How did you feel when he cracked up that motorcycle back East?"
George started to wipe the counter with a white towel.
"Felt bad. But sooner or later...." Georges' voice trailed off.
He stopped wiping the counter.
"Why don't you close early tonight?"
"Naw,you never know when someone wants a drink. Besides I've never closed early.'"
I put my money on the counter.
"Well I'll be shovin' off George. See ya' later."
"Where are you goin?'George asked.
He put the bourbon bottle on the bar.
"Stay,I'll buy ya' a drink ."
Last edited by dagosd2000 on 23 Jul 2008, 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

raylawpc wrote:
scartissue wrote:Frank
Like many of the regulars on the West Coast thread,I think the programs that you post on this site are the best snapshots that the fan can learn how the "feel" was like in the '50's.Not only about boxing,but how America had a honest toughness . I know there are a lot of books about the history of boxing. Anthologies,"ghost written" autobiographies. Biographies as well. But the best stuff in my book that tells the story of boxing is reading the old columns in the papers. The old Ring Magazines and The Sporting News are good examples.Your old fight programs are classics .They have a swagger.a rough style. Big and loud. Man's reading.

I know many American writers honed their teeth reading about boxing in the papers and the sports journals of the period.The old Ring Magazines with writers like Nat Fleischer and Sam Taub(Up And Down Old Broadway).Fighters and referess would have a column. I remember reading stuff by Tony Zale and Ruby Goldstein. They brought their "day" with them when they told a story. I know Hemingway,Lardner,Jack London,Damon Runyan,and O'Henry formed a lot af their style of writing from reading the old sports writers. It was an era of boxing,baseball,and horse racing. Those old reporters and announcers were THE BEST. We get a taste of that again when you post those old boxing programs.

Larry Merrchant,Howard,Jim Lampley,you guys could have learned how to write and tell a story about the Sweet Science by learning from the old timers. Instead you really



Roger, you're right. Today's ringside announcers & boxing writers are a sad lot. They put no emotion or humanity in their writing, just facts & figures. Sadly, everybody who has watched a few HBO/showtime fights on TV considerrs themselves a "historian." In reality, most are moderatly educated fans, who have no clue what really goes on in the ring. Most of today's so-called "trainers" would have been kicked out of any Eastside L.A. backyard gym a few decades back. Many have NEVER actually tied on a club and competed. How would they know what to tell a young boxer. "Keep your hands up?", "Jab?" , what they know about a jab they learned listening to the wisdom of a Jim Lampley. They laugh at us on a thread like this, because these pretenders are raking in money, spreading nothing but crap. Look at today's sad, sad, heavyweight division. But let's get back to the writers. Every major boxing publication isn't worth the paper it's printed on, in fact, it deserves no better place in my house than lining for the bottom of my wifes parrot cage. What boring, unoriginal CRAP! Nothing discriptive, they just try to tell you what you already watched, this guy won the first round, that guy one the second . . . and one guy got floored in this round . . and on and on. Antonio Tarver is great because he KOed a guy who HBO promoted as the best ever. Shit, that Florida bum (both of them) should be shot for impersonating an all-time great and the idiots that promoted them imprisoned as an accessory to the crime. Sadly, kids watch today, and they believe what they are seeing is real.

In a future post, I might come out and say how I really feel . . . aside from that guys, have a great day!

-Rick
Rick and Dago, for a guy who never wanted to end up like one of these guys who live in the past, don't follow the sport anymore and sit in their rocking chairs whining how, "the fighters in my day...", I have strangely inched my way closer to that boxing abyss. I have had real issues stepping back from that edge with what is churned out lately. You guys hit the nail on the head with your issues of fighters, trainers, writers, magazines and fans. I remember when I was in my teens rolling my eyes at some of Nat Fleischer's works. I just thought he was pigeon-holed in the turn of the century with his picks of who he felt were the greatest of all-time and how he seemed to scoff at anything post roaring 20s and heaven forbid, a fighter who could successfully fight with his hands at his sides and predict rounds when opponents would fall. Out of the norm seemed to go against the grain with him and his creaking chair sidekicks whom he had writing at Ring mag. However, today I have a greater appreciation of days gone by. I really enjoy reading Nat's old articles. I may not agree with their content but I have become partial to his lively style of writing. A paragraph containing his colorful metaphors and references to 'bash boulevard' and the great 'ballyhoo' which may follow a promotion, are sadly lacking in writing today. Likewise the fighters. I almost puked the day in a post fight interview DeLaHoya telling Merchant how "rounds 11 and 12 are what we call the championship rounds." I was screaming at the TV like a lunatic, "That's rounds 11 through 15 you candyass!" Magazines too have changed. Man, I would pick up a monthly slew of Ring, World and International boxing and would subscribe to England's Boxing News. When Harry Mullan passed away, BN was never the same. World and International passed and today I only seem to pick up Ring when it has a really sound historical piece in it. But just when I think they're losing me, A Marquez-Vasquez bout just sucks me back in or the anticipation of Cotto-Margarito. Maybe we've not grown critical, just pickier.

Scartissue
There was also a method to Fleischer's madness. If you pick only turn-of-the-century fighters at the top in each category, who is going to dispute you? At the time Fleischer put those lists together, films of those guys were either unavailable or rarely seen, so who was going to argue with him? Also, by picking the old-timers, it makes you sound like a real historian which, of course, wasn't Fleischer's primary pursuit.

The interesting thing is that Fleischer was born too late to see many of the guys he listed as No. 1 on his lists.

It became very interesting when Jim Jacobs began collecting and viewing those old films, and suddenly they became available on 8 mm where more and more people could see them. I recall a "debate" between Fleischer and Jacobs in the Ring Magazine, circa 1970, in which Jacobs really took apart Fleischer's opinion that "older is better," based on his film studies.

It was funny to me that Fleischer's response to Jacobs' argument was that the cameras were bad back then and, besides, "I know what I saw and what I remember." Problem is, he didn't see a number of the guys he put at the top.[/quote]

Tom
I know what you're saying. Fleischer thought Bob Fitzsimmons was third best heavyweight of all time behind Johnson and Jeffries. He figured the younger generation didn't see what he saw,so he thought he had leverage. I remember looking at his rankings of all the fighters in each division ,and if you fought after 1920 you weren't as good. Another interesting point on that. When Fleischer would publish his "Ring Record Book" he'd always write notations of the old timers' fights. Sometimes paragraphs.

But we could go back and forth aguing who was the best.On this thread we don't get into that that much. Once in a while someone will say I thought so and so was the best bantamweight I ever saw. We don't give anyone an argument. Sometime I peek at those other threads and if someone doesn't get his way,it's a real bitch slapping contest.

What I liked was the writing styles of the old journalists.
Tom,here's something to ponder. If you read Fleischer,Taub,Loubet,Sugar,any of the Jewish sport writers. They always say that Benny Leonard didn't want the Welter Title from Jack Britton ,so Benny fouled him. They say Benny was ahead,but fouled Britton because he didn't want the title.

I always found that to be funny. It didn't add up. Look up the old newspapers out of New York following that fight.Go to the archives. THEY HAD BRITTON AHEAD. They say Benny looked slow at the bigger weight. Britton was ahead in the scoring. In the 13th Leonard appears to hit Britton low. Jack turns to the ref while he's on his knees claiming a low blow and Benny slugs him when he's down. . He loses on a DQ.The Garden didn't clear for an hour. The fans were unclear on what had happened. Total confusion.

Benny Leonard was the greatest Jewish fighter who ever lived. Now Fleischer was at that fight. I guess he figured it happened so long ago,they'd believe his story. What the hell? I'm Italian. In the Italian neighborhood in Chicago when I was kid,I was always told that Pep beat Saddler.Those old grease balls never told me about the 3 times Willie lost to Sandy.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by raylawpc »

I'm with you. My point about Fleischer was that he picked guys at the top whom most people hadn't seen, and so nobody could really call him on it. I'm not personally challenging him on his selections. It was his opinion, and he's not here to defend it. I'm really not into whether Joe Gans, Benny Leonard or Roberto Duran was the best lightweight. How can you realistically compare guys who fought in different eras under different conditions? Its good enough for me that they were great fighters, and I can marvel in their accomplishments. Deciding who is No. 1, 2, 3 or 100 doesn't really matter to me. But I have no fault with guys like my friend Barry who puts together such lists. Its just a matter of perspective, and what floats your boat.

I was a stringer for the Ring in the 1970s, and knew some guys who knew Fleischer. I learned Nat was quite thin-skinned about criticism. Heck, he even got into a bit of an tiff with Jim Jeffries, at Jeff's 75th birthday party in 1950, when Jeff said he didn't consider jack Johnson to be a great fighter.

Yes, the whole Benny Leonard-Jack Britton deal is very interesting. One thing to consider is rumors that Billy Gibson, Leonard's manager, had mob connections. Maybe this was one of those, "Benny, tonight ain't your night," kind of deals. Certainly Leonard had too much pride to take a dive, so maybe a loss on a DQ made more sense. I don't know. Everybody who was around back then is dead, so who knows? But its mighty strange.

I, too, really enjoy the style of writing from those times.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by raylawpc »

One fight from the past that I really wish had come off was Leonard-Walker. That fight, for Mickey's welterweight title, was signed and scheduled for 1924 until Leonard hurt his hand in a tune-up with Pal Moran. Wow, what a fight that would have been!!!
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by scartissue »

Rick and Dago, for a guy who never wanted to end up like one of these guys who live in the past, don't follow the sport anymore and sit in their rocking chairs whining how, "the fighters in my day...", I have strangely inched my way closer to that boxing abyss. I have had real issues stepping back from that edge with what is churned out lately. You guys hit the nail on the head with your issues of fighters, trainers, writers, magazines and fans. I remember when I was in my teens rolling my eyes at some of Nat Fleischer's works. I just thought he was pigeon-holed in the turn of the century with his picks of who he felt were the greatest of all-time and how he seemed to scoff at anything post roaring 20s and heaven forbid, a fighter who could successfully fight with his hands at his sides and predict rounds when opponents would fall. Out of the norm seemed to go against the grain with him and his creaking chair sidekicks whom he had writing at Ring mag. However, today I have a greater appreciation of days gone by. I really enjoy reading Nat's old articles. I may not agree with their content but I have become partial to his lively style of writing. A paragraph containing his colorful metaphors and references to 'bash boulevard' and the great 'ballyhoo' which may follow a promotion, are sadly lacking in writing today. Likewise the fighters. I almost puked the day in a post fight interview DeLaHoya telling Merchant how "rounds 11 and 12 are what we call the championship rounds." I was screaming at the TV like a lunatic, "That's rounds 11 through 15 you candyass!" Magazines too have changed. Man, I would pick up a monthly slew of Ring, World and International boxing and would subscribe to England's Boxing News. When Harry Mullan passed away, BN was never the same. World and International passed and today I only seem to pick up Ring when it has a really sound historical piece in it. But just when I think they're losing me, A Marquez-Vasquez bout just sucks me back in or the anticipation of Cotto-Margarito. Maybe we've not grown critical, just pickier.

Scartissue[/quote]

There was also a method to Fleischer's madness. If you pick only turn-of-the-century fighters at the top in each category, who is going to dispute you? At the time Fleischer put those lists together, films of those guys were either unavailable or rarely seen, so who was going to argue with him? Also, by picking the old-timers, it makes you sound like a real historian which, of course, wasn't Fleischer's primary pursuit.

The interesting thing is that Fleischer was born too late to see many of the guys he listed as No. 1 on his lists.

It became very interesting when Jim Jacobs began collecting and viewing those old films, and suddenly they became available on 8 mm where more and more people could see them. I recall a "debate" between Fleischer and Jacobs in the Ring Magazine, circa 1970, in which Jacobs really took apart Fleischer's opinion that "older is better," based on his film studies.

It was funny to me that Fleischer's response to Jacobs' argument was that the cameras were bad back then and, besides, "I know what I saw and what I remember." Problem is, he didn't see a number of the guys he put at the top.[/quote]

Tom
I know what you're saying. Fleischer thought Bob Fitzsimmons was third best heavyweight of all time behind Johnson and Jeffries. He figured the younger generation didn't see what he saw,so he thought he had leverage. I remember looking at his rankings of all the fighters in each division ,and if you fought after 1920 you weren't as good. Another interesting point on that. When Fleischer would publish his "Ring Record Book" he'd always write notations of the old timers' fights. Sometimes paragraphs.

But we could go back and forth aguing who was the best.On this thread we don't get into that that much. Once in a while someone will say I thought so and so was the best bantamweight I ever saw. We don't give anyone an argument. Sometime I peek at those other threads and if someone doesn't get his way,it's a real bitch slapping contest.

What I liked was the writing styles of the old journalists.
Tom,here's something to ponder. If you read Fleischer,Taub,Loubet,Sugar,any of the Jewish sport writers. They always say that Benny Leonard didn't want the Welter Title from Jack Britton ,so Benny fouled him. They say Benny was ahead,but fouled Britton because he didn't want the title.

I always found that to be funny. It didn't add up. Look up the old newspapers out of New York following that fight.Go to the archives. THEY HAD BRITTON AHEAD. They say Benny looked slow at the bigger weight. Britton was ahead in the scoring. In the 13th Leonard appears to hit Britton low. Jack turns to the ref while he's on his knees claiming a low blow and Benny slugs him when he's down. . He loses on a DQ.The Garden didn't clear for an hour. The fans were unclear on what had happened. Total confusion.

Benny Leonard was the greatest Jewish fighter who ever lived. Now Fleischer was at that fight. I guess he figured it happened so long ago,they'd believe his story. What the hell? I'm Italian. In the Italian neighborhood in Chicago when I was kid,I was always told that Pep beat Saddler.Those old grease balls never told me about the 3 times Willie lost to Sandy.[/quote]

Tom and Dago, we could open a real historical can of worms here. Of course Nat likely never saw Bob Fitzsimmons fight. I think he was 12 when Bob lost to Jeffries. Amazing that he would dig his heels in deep and claim Bob was #3 of all-time heavys, never see him fight, yet, he was in his fifties when Joe Louis was just knocking them dead and still rate Louis below him. He was obviously in awe of these old guys, whom he probably grew up reading about and they were bigger than life. Today we have 'historians' still rating these guys at the top of their top ten list and I ask why? They never saw them fight. The kind of film that exists on them is terrible and rare, so how can they rate them? Because it was written so many times before and they don't want to seem uneducated? But who wrote about them? Guys that never saw a Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Frazier. WE have seen just about all of them and I trust everyone's opinions here more than anyones. But even they are subject to the era we grew up in and the geographical region we're from. Frank B. believes Manuel Ortiz is the greatest bantam of all time, Nat believed it was George Dixon (I think), my choice would be Ruben Olivares. A younger dude than I may say Johnny Tapia for all I know or some of our Australian correspondents here may say Jeff Fenech. Everyone has an opinion based on something but I do respect an opinion based on having witnessed some of the participants or at least educated through research. But we'll always have a little bit of favoritism sprinkled throughout.

Scartissue
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by raylawpc »

We all tend to favor the heros of our youth, I think. I remember my Dad and Granddad having a friendly argument over the respective merits of Joe Louis (Dad's choice), and Jack Dempsey (Grandpa's favorite).

In the midst of jawing away at one another, my Grandpa kind of chuckled and said, "I remember a similar talk I had with my Dad about 40 years ago - and he said Jack Dempsey had nothing on John L. Sullivan."
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

I call Don Fraser at the hospital and was able to talk with him for a couple of minutes, he seem to be doing better then the last time I talk to him, which was Friday (7-18-08).

Get well Don!!........keep :box:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by raylawpc »

Good news. Thanks Frank.

Its a strange disease. A person will get over an attack with no lingering side effects or impairments.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

raylawpc wrote:Good news. Thanks Frank.

Its a strange disease. A person will get over an attack with no lingering side effects or impairments.

Tom,

About 2-3 weeks ago he told me that he has been dealing with this for 4 years, but never this bad, he is a nice guy, hope he gets well soon.
Last edited by kikibalt on 23 Jul 2008, 17:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by raylawpc »

Me too. I've never met Don Fraser, but I know others besides you and the guys on this thread who knew him, and they all spoke very highly of him.

Its a really tough disease because you never know when you'll get hit with an attack.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

Hey guys, how about a shot of Tequila? the best only "Patron"... :TU: :TU:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

kikibalt wrote:Hey guys, how about a shot of Tequila? the best only "Patron"... :TU: :TU:
Frank
Sounds like a good idea.That's good that you stay in touch with Don Fraser. How's the wife?Pour her a shot too. Next time we get together I'll bring some homemade brew. Mezcal from my sister in laws Rancho. It's ten years old. You drink a shot and Pancho Villa shoots off his gun!
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

dagosd2000 wrote:
kikibalt wrote:Hey guys, how about a shot of Tequila? the best only "Patron"... :TU: :TU:
Frank
Sounds like a good idea.That's good that you stay in touch with Don Fraser. How's the wife?Pour her a shot too. Next time we get together I'll bring some homemade brew. Mezcal from my sister in laws Rancho. It's ten years old. You drink a shot and Pancho Villa shoots off his gun!

Can't give the wife a drink, she goes ape on me... :lol:
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