Why is George Foreman so highly rated?

[SteveO]

Lewis promised Vitali a rematch after the fight but decided to retire instead. Can't really blame him for that if he felt his best days were behind him.
Still, it would have been nice to have seen a rematch. I don't really bet much but if I did my money would have been on a Vitali win.

[Chuck1052]

George Foreman absolutely demolished both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, two fighters who had beaten Muhammad Ali previously. That alone made Foreman one of the top fighters of the 1970s despite the fact his reputation later took a beating when he lost to Ali and Jimmy Young. Foreman's comeback did much to redeem his reputation among many people.

- Chuck Johnston

[Syntax Error]

George Foreman absolutely demolished both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, two fighters who had beaten Muhammad Ali previously. That alone made Foreman one of the top fighters of the 1970s despite the fact his reputation later took a beating when he lost to Ali and Jimmy Young. Foreman's comeback did much to redeem his reputation among many people.

- Chuck Johnston

Spot on.

It's good the get the thread back in topic as it had seemingly morphed into the Vitali Klitschko revisionist appreciation society thread.

[Kalan]

George Foreman absolutely demolished both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, two fighters who had beaten Muhammad Ali previously. That alone made Foreman one of the top fighters of the 1970s despite the fact his reputation later took a beating when he lost to Ali and Jimmy Young. Foreman's comeback did much to redeem his reputation among many people.

- Chuck Johnston

Both Frazier and Norton led with their heads. Both had the bad habits of crossing their arms and blocking rights with their right hands. They tried to slip and duck punches while loading hooks and tried to get close and overpower you. Norton had decent height and reach and a fair jab. He was able to out-jab and out-box Ali from the outside at times---but how much credit and consistency Norton got from all 3 judges was tenuous at best -- because the truth is, Ali rarely fought a real good boxer who matched him in height, weight, and reach because there weren't any super good and consistent ones until Holmes came along.

Norton and Frazier got the most credit from the judges when they trapped Ali on the ropes... It been proven over and over again that it's impossible to defend adequately by laying on the ropes and hiding behind your gloves and arms when you're opposing a highly skilled, perfectly conditioned, patient and clever infighter. Either your mouth, nose, and eyes are open to uppercuts -- or your jaw, ears, and head are open to hooks. Either your belly and solar plexus are open to uppercuts or your short-ribs and sides can be pounded with hooks. You'll be able to withstand the punishment from a smaller, weaker, poorly condition opponent -- or one who lacks conditioning, infighting skills, and can't put a head on you -- but the rope-a-dope won't work on a prime and perfectly conditioned Frazier or Norton, because they will cut off the ring and will belabor your head and body, taking the round easy.

Anyone who gives you their head to shoot and tries to counter with hooks is going to get murdered by a puncher. Subtle feints, quick jabs and straight rights-- and as they load and shoot the hook the right hook or uppercut tears their head off.. Foreman had the right -- short right uppercuts and right hooks.. The first time GF decked Norton he hit him with 5 consecutive right hands on the button. Norton's defense was shredded and his heavily muscled arms were flailing and useless -- which is what you see when a head first boxer who drives everyone around the ring and bullies them faces a puncher.

A prime Foreman rates as high as Ali -- but had different strengths.. He didn't do well with slick boxers and jabbers.. When Foreman made his comeback he was very patient, defended better, took strength off his jab and worked it better, took his time and set up his shots. It wasn't necessary for him to blow everyone away. He let his opponents be impatient and nervous. He was the Implacable veteran showing he could absorb tremendous punishment versus Steward, Holyfield and Moorer and still be ready to deliver the KO punch if and when the shot came. I don't think he was hurt by Ali or Young. His face wasn't swollen or marked up as badly. He was exhausted. Fatigue is the biggest enemy of any boxer. It makes cowards of us all. He learned how to relax and rest strategically, and let his opponent throw for a while.

[Cojimar 1946]

No doubt the Frazier and Norton blowouts impressed people but a big part in ranking is dominance and consistency areas in which Foreman falls short. Hasim Rahman ko'd a prime Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe beat Holyfield but most people don't have these guys in their top 10. Additionally, Norton consistently fell short when faced with big hitters as illustrated by the Cooney and Shavers fights.

With Foreman people seem to want to focus on the impressive wins while ignoring that he was never the best heavyweight in the world, only managed two title defenses, didn't clean out his era, never avenged a defeat, etc. There are other heaavyweights like Rahman and Schmelling with spectacular wins who virtually nobody argues are top 10 let alone top 5.

[Kalan]

Lewis was a great athlete and absolutely in his athletic prime for both Rahman fights... Lewis's skills kept improving and were better than ever for Rahman II and Mike Tyson -- who is younger than Lewis, but who Lewis destroyed easily... Lewis said, "I'm like fine wine.. I get better with age." Rahman landed a lottery shot in the 1st fight---a once in a lifetime lucky punch---but didn't land shiit in the rematch, which Lennox Lewis dominated for an easy KO victory.

The 1st fight was nothing but dumb luck for the completely inept and pathetic Rahman -- who lacked the skills and dedication to be a legit World Champ

[Controversial]

I think it is a bit of a stretch to say Lewis was " prime " when Rahman KO'd him. Apart from the fact he was approaching 36 he definitely didn't train or prepare properly for that South African fight. He acted like a starstruck kid hanging around nonentities like George Clooney, Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts, instead of just filming his miniscule part in some film and getting the hell out of there and concentrating on his " real " job.

He wasn't even prime for the rematch, just focused and prepared enough to easily deal with a fighter of Rahman's calibre.

Agreed, he also he didn't acclimatise for the fight, he trained in Vegas so he could film his scenes instead of travelling to South Africa and getting himself used to being at high altitude. He was the heaviest he had ever weighed as well, another sign he wasn't taking the fight too serious, he didn't make that mistake in the rematch.

[Kalan]

Good boxers are often at their best in their mid 30's in the modern era.. The reason being they've been boxing for about 20 years worked a lot kinks, flaws, and weaknesses out of their game.. They've mastered patience and pace.. They know almost to the second where the round is and what they have to do to make a grab for it or keep in their column.

Wladimir said he was at his best in his mid 30's and Vitali called his late 30's after his comeback the best he felt physically and felt nobody could outbox him. Mayweather Sr said 37 was his son's peak age because his instincts were so highly developed. At 34, Cotto nailed Money with a lot of jabs and Floyd said, "I think I can get better." Hopkins thought the Trinidad and De La Hoya fights were a couple of his most polished performances and actually thought Pavlik might be his best fight. With the demise of Tyson, Lewis called himself the "Pugilist Specialist" and now clearly the best Heavyweight in the world.

In previous times I agree that boxers hit their peak much earlier. They fought more often and the wear and tear caught up with them.. A few guys like Archie Moore definitely improved with age and experience.. He was so resilient that age didn't catch up with him like it did most.. From his rematch with Henry Hall in '48 to his Bobo Olsen fight in '55 he felt invincible. He knew age and the great number of punches he took were beginning to take a toll on him, but felt the bigger factor was the experience and knowledge he had that buried almost all of his opponents.

[Controversial]

Fighters may be at their best but they still need to train properly. Cutting corners in training or underestimating opponents is how many fighters end up losing, especially to guys they should have beaten.

[Cojimar 1946]

At the time of the Rahman fight Lewis was considered the best heavyweight in the world, was coming off impressive performances (dominating Tua, blasting out Grant and Botha) and was a big favorite to beat Rahman. He also seemed to be winning prior to the knockout. And he fought in an era in which it was more common for fighters to perform well at advanced ages (possibly due to rampant steroid use). Juan Manuel Marquez scored the best win of his career at age 39 when he kayoed Pacquiao. Holyfield beat Tyson at age 34, Floyd Mayweather also performed well at 35-36. I could go on.

However, regardless of whether he was in his prime or not my point is there are plenty of fighters who have impressive wins but who are rightly not viewed as greats because of lack of dominance. We can of course make excuses for the guys who lost but you can make excuses to Frazier if you want.
Some examples of the top of my head
Riddick Bowe (won trilogy with Holyfield, incuding a kayo win in third fight)--yet not in most people's top 10 heavyweight list
Oliver McCall (stopped Lennox Lewis in 1994)--not placed in top 10 or even top 20 by most boxing fans
Buster Douglas (kayoed Mike Tyson)--not placed in top 10 or even top 25
Max Schmelling (beat a prime Joe Louis)--usually not rated among top 10 heavyweights
Rubin Carter (stopped a prime Emile Griffith)--not ranked among top 20 middleweights
Randy Turpin (beat prime Sugar Ray Robinnson)--not usually ranked among top 10 middleweights or even among the top 25

[Kalan]

Good boxers are often at their best in their mid 30's in the modern era.. The reason being they've been boxing for about 20 years worked a lot kinks, flaws, and weaknesses out of their game.. They've mastered patience and pace.. They know almost to the second where the round is and what they have to do to make a grab for it or keep in their column.

Wladimir said he was at his best in his mid 30's and Vitali called his late 30's after his comeback the best he felt physically and felt nobody could outbox him. Mayweather Sr said 37 was his son's peak age because his instincts were so highly developed. At 34, Cotto nailed Money with a lot of jabs and Floyd said, "I think I can get better." Hopkins thought the Trinidad and De La Hoya fights were a couple of his most polished performances and actually thought Pavlik might be his best fight. With the demise of Tyson, Lewis called himself the "Pugilist Specialist" and now clearly the best Heavyweight in the world.

In previous times I agree that boxers hit their peak much earlier. They fought more often and the wear and tear caught up with them.. A few guys like Archie Moore definitely improved with age and experience.. He was so resilient that age didn't catch up with him like it did most.. From his rematch with Henry Hall in '48 to his Bobo Olsen fight in '55 he felt invincible. He knew age and the great number of punches he took were beginning to take a toll on him, but felt the bigger factor was the experience and knowledge he had that buried almost all of his opponents.

Lewis was at his " best " when he had to box guys he couldn't put away, or cut to shreds. Guys like Mercer, Mavrovic, Holyfield, and Tua.

He outboxed all or them but Mercer easily -- was always ahead on points.. And didn't have to foul the shiit out of them to win. He was getting killed by VK.

[Kalan]

Vitali had a killer right hand.. He's a 3 X Heavyweight Champion of the World with the 2nd highest KO ratio of all retired Heavyweight Champions.. There were 6 different professional Boxing judges judging his 2 fights with Byrd and Lewis... All had him winning on points throughout those 15 rounds. He only lost because he was injured in both fights... Byrd lost because guys beat the living shiit out of him and knocked him out... Lewis lost because guys flattened him.. Vitali was never knocked down and was never behind on points after any fight in his entire career.. That can't be said about anybody else in fistic history.

[BoxBuzz]

Though he was a bit dainty....prone to cuts, and lack of flexibility probably from poor training techniques or maybe just a genetic condition of an inelastic nature. With Patterson and Vitali's brother it was the chin of the face, with Vitali it was the actual face itself and the inflexibility of the rotator cuff. 3 delicate HW's : Floyd Vitali and Wlad.....all able to rise to the top, despite their fragile nature.

[Kalan]

You're lying again Buzzbox... Vitali Klitschko wasn't prone to cuts... He suffered serious cuts in only ONE FIGHT OF HIS WHOLE CAREER!!!!

And those cuts were confined to his left eyelid and cheek---and were inflicted in the first 20 seconds of the 3rd round... 3 fouls in 20 seconds.

Inflicted by a thumb strike and holding-n-hitting palm rake -- the palm rake slashed his left eyelid and got his left cheek with the same slash.

Vitali was later flagrantly palmed in the face and warned for it... With the referee not even stopping the action -- just a quick hand warning that Lewis ignored... Proving that fouls contributed to those cuts -- and the referee was corrupt as Hell for allowing egregious fouls throughout the fight.

[Kalan]

Holyfield purposefully ducked the Klitschko Bros. When they first won world titles they tried to get fights with Tyson and Holyfield. Holyfield and Tyson both ducked Lewis for many years as well. There is NOBODY who Vitali Klitschko ducked.

Larry Donald boxed the ears off Holyfield but was knocked out by Vitali Klitschko in the only KO loss of his career... Danny Williams knocked Tyson out, and in his next fight was easily hammered out by Vitali Klitschko... Nobody who Holyfield ever beat, beat one of the Klitschko Bros.. Ditto with Tyson.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Holyfield wouldn't duck for a five foot door.

[gregor]

Holyfield purposefully ducked the Klitschko Bros.

Look at Holyfield career. Cruiserweight champion in no time and HW champion shortly after that. Now compare with the first 25 fights of Vitali - just one top fighter (Herbie Hide) amongs relative nobodies.

It may help you to rethink some things about ducking... also, it gives a hint why Vitali has "the highest KO percentage"

[Kalan]

Holyfield purposefully ducked the Klitschko Bros.

Look at Holyfield career. Cruiserweight champion in no time and HW champion shortly after that. Now compare with the first 25 fights of Vitali - just one top fighter (Herbie Hide) amongs relative nobodies.

It may help you to rethink some things about ducking... also, it gives a hint why Vitali has "the highest KO percentage"

The Cruiserweight Division was brand new and there were no good boxers in it.. Soon after Holyfield won the Heavyweight Title by beating an undertrained, bloated and FAT PIG in Buster Douglas, and defending the title against aged challengers in their 40's, he was knocked on his ass and beaten by 1 of the crudest and most incompetent Heavyweight Champions in Boxing History, the ducking COWARD Bowe.. Bowe ducked Lewis, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, Ruddock, Witherspoon, the Klitschko's, and every big punching Heavyweight out there.. Bowe still got his brains kicked in because he could never defend himself well.

Vitali fought whoever was there.. 24 fights is fine to get ready for a World Heavyweight Title Fight.. You don't have to go for it in 10 fights if you're not offered the fight - and you're not the number 1 contending mandatory challenger.. Vitali was the number 1 contender and knocked 31-1 Herbie Hide out in 2 rounds for his 25th straight KO win...what else is new??? Tyson and Holyfield still refused to fight him for his title.. VK was the most feared Heavyweight of the day because he won his 1st 27 fights by KO -- before suffering an unfortunate injury in his 28th fight -- persevering until the 9th round before being forced to quit -- miles ahead on point on all scorecards.

[SteveO]

The Cruiserweight Division was brand new and there were no good boxers in it.. Soon after Holyfield won the Heavyweight Title by beating an undertrained, bloated and FAT PIG in Buster Douglas, and defending the title against aged challengers in their 40's, he was knocked on his ass and beaten by 1 of the crudest and most incompetent Heavyweight Champions in Boxing History, the ducking COWARD Bowe.. Bowe ducked Lewis, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, Ruddock, Witherspoon, the Klitschko's, and every big punching Heavyweight out there.. Bowe still got his brains kicked in because he could never defend himself well.

You certainly have a way with words Kalan!

[gregor]

Bowe ducked Lewis, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, Ruddock, Witherspoon, the Klitschko's, and every big punching Heavyweight out there..

You certainly have a way with words Kalan!

And no respect for facts

When Klitschkos started their careers, Bowe was in no position to duck anyone - he was no longer top fighter... in fact he was not an active fighter at all - he just retired after being demolished by Golota.

[Kalan]

The best should fight the best... VK was obviously one of the best.. Tyson and Holyfield were fighting 2nd raters and avoiding Lewis an Vitali.

[Syntax Error]

Holyfield purposefully ducked the Klitschko Bros. When they first won world titles they tried to get fights with Tyson and Holyfield. Holyfield and Tyson both ducked Lewis for many years as well. There is NOBODY who Vitali Klitschko ducked.

Larry Donald boxed the ears off Holyfield but was knocked out by Vitali Klitschko in the only KO loss of his career... Danny Williams knocked Tyson out, and in his next fight was easily hammered out by Vitali Klitschko... Nobody who Holyfield ever beat, beat one of the Klitschko Bros.. Ditto with Tyson.

Kalan, you appear to be extremely fond of rewriting history.

I wish you would stop doing it, because you know your stuff & you should know better.

[Kalan]

You're full of crap and quite simply a hate filled individual.

Vitali quit because he suffered a fully separated Rotator cuff assembly that was so damaged it was in 2 pieces by the 9th round... He didn't quit because he was taking a beating -- such as Muhammad Ali, Willie Monroe, JC Chavez, Oscar De La Hoya, MIguel Cotto, Charles Martin, Carlos Ortiz, Max Baer, Acelino Feitas, Iran Barkley, Marvin Johnson, Eric Morel, and many others did -- he quit because he suffered an injury such as: Sonny Liston, Marcel Cerdan, Jesse James, Bernard Hopkins (twice), Harry Wills, Vyacheslav Glazkov, and many others did.

Injuries force athletes to the sidelines in every contact sport.. They're unfortunate but they happen.. To hate on somebody for that is pathetic.

[BoxBuzz]

Remember that Chris may have simply been a bit too dexterous for the big fella, and when Vitali attempted to keep up with his faster opponent, he sprained his circumstance.

[Kalan]

Vitali Klitschko was by far the better of the Klitschko bros and would have murdered his brother. No brothers have ever fought and that only makes sense.. You had the Bear Bros... The Sims Bros... The Hagler Bros... The Spinks Bros... The Dirrell Bros, etc.. Bros don't fight stupid ass.

Vitali was easily beating Chris Byrd on all cards, but was forced to quit because of a completely severed rotator cuff assembly.

Vitali was beating Lewis on ALL SCORECARDS.. His face was no pizza.. His left eyelid and cheek had deep jagged cuts from a thumb strike and a holding-and-hitting palm rake.. Both those deliberate fouls took place in the first 20 seconds of the 3rd round -- after Lewis was nearly knocked out in the first 2 rounds. Lewis fouled throughout the final 4 rounds of the fight in one of the most corrupt title fights of all time.