BoxRec

of course i see your point but you cant just use it to discredit cooper. you have to - by logical extention - apply it to the boxing world as a whole.

harrygreb wrote:of course i see your point but you cant just use it to discredit cooper. you have to - by logical extention - apply it to the boxing world as a whole.

Yeah. But I do.

I'm not using it to discredit Cooper. I'm using it to put his career into the proper perspective.

and the careers of every world champ of the last 90 years. we differ carbo, but i suspect you realise that cooper wasnt the duffer some on here think he was.

harrygreb wrote:and the careers of every world champ of the last 90 years. we differ carbo, but i suspect you realise that cooper wasnt the duffer some on here think he was.

Not quite every world champ, for two reasons:

First, Cooper didn't progress beyond European level. Every time he stepped up to world class level he was soundly beaten. We should assess him, therefore, on that level. Don't you think that the size of the European talent pool is more relevant for a European boxer who never progressed beyond that level than for, say, Willie Pepp?

Second, I think that considering Cooper was a Heavyweight/Cruiserweight, we should pay special attention to the Eastern Europeans. Seen the top 20 heavyweight list of late? It's packed with lads from behind the Iron Curtain. I think that since they've made such a massive impact in Cooper's weight division since they have been allowed to go pro, it's a reasonable question to ask whether Cooper would even have been able to escape from British level were they around in his day.

Finally, I don't think Cooper was a duffer, but the way he seems to rate himself, I think it's acceptable to ask questions. Ultimately, he was probably the best post-war natural born British heavyweight, but that's such an abysmally poor lot that I don't think it's up to much.

Was he on a par with Conteh, Minter, Graham and a whole host of others? I think not. Perhaps up there with Henry Wharton, he of another big left. Or maybe Dennis Andreis. That's not, however, how he, or the popular press, seems to rate him.

er Lennox was born in London. Naturally as far as I am aware.

Also would henry have beaten Frank or Haye?

I have my doubts.

J wrote:er Lennox was born in London. Naturally as far as I am aware.

Also would henry have beaten Frank or Haye?

I have my doubts.

Well, quite.

Of course you're right about Lewis. Kind of not quite born and raised, if you know what I mean.

But I stand corrected.

sorry Im being Mr Pedant...but its an argument ive had so many times....but yes understand your slant ont he jamaican roots / living in Canada thing.

Carbo wrote: Second, I think that considering Cooper was a Heavyweight/Cruiserweight, we should pay special attention to the Eastern Europeans. Seen the top 20 heavyweight list of late? It's packed with lads from behind the Iron Curtain. I think that since they've made such a massive impact in Cooper's weight division since they have been allowed to go pro, it's a reasonable question to ask whether Cooper would even have been able to escape from British level were they around in his day.

Maybe their impact in the last 8 to 10 years has been down to a sharp decline in quality of American heavies perhaps?

In the 90s Alexander Zolkin, Oleg Maskaev & the gang didn't exactly make much of a dent with Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Moorer, Tyson, Morrison, Ruddock, Mercer, McCall et al about. Both Klitschkos took a very, very long time to get moved into true elite level & then one of them got whacked by an old fat 90's fringe contender en route! Nikolay Valuev turned pro in 94 and they didn't move him up for 11 years! If he had been moved up around 98 to mix with David Tua, Ike Ibeabuchi et al its difficult to imagine him surviving. Mavrovic hit a wall with Lewis around, as did Schulz when he ran into Moorer.

Eddie Chambers and Dominic Guinn being all the US can throw up these days to me is not an indication that eastern european heavies or European heavies in general are superior 'retroactively'.

what a class post

Who was the last really good heavyweight from the States?

Ray Mercer?


although who did he ever beat?


Riddick Bowe would have to be the last proper heavy they had?


Long time

harrygreb wrote:what a class post

harrygreb, what's your reply to Carbo?

J wrote:er Lennox was born in London. Naturally as far as I am aware.

Also would henry have beaten Frank or Haye?

I have my doubts.

I think he would have beaten Bruno, although cuts off course was always a factor. Haye... not sure. Still alot of unanswered questions on Haye.

Still find it almost mystifying how a 39 (probably more) year old Carl Thompson beat him.

my reply to carbo is inherant in the superb riposte of mr overhand right. in other words "he took 'em out of my large mishapen gob"

overhand_right wrote:

Carbo wrote: Second, I think that considering Cooper was a Heavyweight/Cruiserweight, we should pay special attention to the Eastern Europeans. Seen the top 20 heavyweight list of late? It's packed with lads from behind the Iron Curtain. I think that since they've made such a massive impact in Cooper's weight division since they have been allowed to go pro, it's a reasonable question to ask whether Cooper would even have been able to escape from British level were they around in his day.

Maybe their impact in the last 8 to 10 years has been down to a sharp decline in quality of American heavies perhaps?

In the 90s Alexander Zolkin, Oleg Maskaev & the gang didn't exactly make much of a dent with Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Moorer, Tyson, Morrison, Ruddock, Mercer, McCall et al about. Both Klitschkos took a very, very long time to get moved into true elite level & then one of them got whacked by an old fat 90's fringe contender en route! Nikolay Valuev turned pro in 94 and they didn't move him up for 11 years! If he had been moved up around 98 to mix with David Tua, Ike Ibeabuchi et al its difficult to imagine him surviving. Mavrovic hit a wall with Lewis around, as did Schulz when he ran into Moorer.

Eddie Chambers and Dominic Guinn being all the US can throw up these days to me is not an indication that eastern european heavies or European heavies in general are superior 'retroactively'.

Exactly -- and in the sixties it was likely that the current crop of Russians, Ukrainians and Poles would have not been good enough to hack it with the top Americans, meaning they would have been competing with Cooper on the European scene.

[

quote="overhand_right"]Bottom line in this thread is Cooper, whatever his limitations, achieved more than most British heavies. he beat some good fighters, won legit belts, never shied away from a ruck with his domestic rivals like our modern British fighters, and boxed some of the best in the world.

I will quote Joe Bugner 'Henry Cooper fought the same men again and again' He did beat some good fighters and was himself a good fighter. But it is obvious to everyone who knows anything about boxing that Cooper was shy of genunine world class.

Whatever the old boy might be saying now, and he was only saying the tee shirt was disrespectful but still complimented Hayes skills, his career deserves more respect than many here are giving.

However - when the man says he was as good a fighter as Muhammad Ali - things need to be put into perspective.

[/quote]PS - 'your mum'.[/quote]

Wahey! You now qualify to post on the 'current scene' forum!

harrygreb wrote:QUOTE FROM CARLOS WIGAN "No - I wasn't around to see Cooper's career - where you around to see Harry Greb in action?"

never forget, i AM harry greb

More like Harry Pleb!

Carbo wrote:

harrygreb wrote:its you with the kleenex

Brilliant rejoinder.

harrygreb wrote:i'm laughing my socks off at your inability to assess a fighter correctly

And where was a assessing Cooper? I was arguing we should take into account the fact that a sizeable number of the world's better boxers were simply not allowed to compete in the pro-ranks in Coopers day. Which is a factor to be considered when one DOES assess Copper's merits relative to boxers which DID have to compete against Eastern Europeans, don't you think?

I mean, nobody's saying Alan Wells was a bad sprinter, but when judging the qualities of Olympic 100m champions through the ages, we have to bear in mind that the Americans weren't there, right?

The yanks werent there, but they were ALL there 4 weeks later at the Golden Games in Germany. Guess what, Wells thrashed the lot of them. You know wells holds wins over Ben Johnson Carl Lewis and Christie?

overhand_right wrote:

Carbo wrote: Second, I think that considering Cooper was a Heavyweight/Cruiserweight, we should pay special attention to the Eastern Europeans. Seen the top 20 heavyweight list of late? It's packed with lads from behind the Iron Curtain. I think that since they've made such a massive impact in Cooper's weight division since they have been allowed to go pro, it's a reasonable question to ask whether Cooper would even have been able to escape from British level were they around in his day.

Maybe their impact in the last 8 to 10 years has been down to a sharp decline in quality of American heavies perhaps?

In the 90s Alexander Zolkin, Oleg Maskaev & the gang didn't exactly make much of a dent with Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Moorer, Tyson, Morrison, Ruddock, Mercer, McCall et al about. Both Klitschkos took a very, very long time to get moved into true elite level & then one of them got whacked by an old fat 90's fringe contender en route! Nikolay Valuev turned pro in 94 and they didn't move him up for 11 years! If he had been moved up around 98 to mix with David Tua, Ike Ibeabuchi et al its difficult to imagine him surviving. Mavrovic hit a wall with Lewis around, as did Schulz when he ran into Moorer.

Eddie Chambers and Dominic Guinn being all the US can throw up these days to me is not an indication that eastern european heavies or European heavies in general are superior 'retroactively'.

Good point.

stujones wrote:

oliverfennell wrote:

stujones wrote:Be inclined to agree with this, people seem to forget that in Cooper's era it was very hard to get a title fight, sure there was a bum of the month every now and again - but still would the likes of Frans Botha, Bruce Seldon etc be classed a world champions... would Frank Bruno been given one world title fight, let alone four.

Cooper had one shot at the title, against the greatest at his peak... yet he was a long reigning European champion and beat some fantastic fighters.

I think Cooper has a right to be a little bitter - the BBBoC refused to sanction the WBC when he was offered the chance to challenge Jimmy Ellis for the title. Ellis would have been favourite, but not entirely inconceivable that Henry would have won.... seeing the likes of Bruno, Scott Welch, Danny Williams, Skelton getting world title fights must annoy him a little. Herbie Hide can call himself a two time world champion - hasn't had a win against a top ten heavyweight for my money.

Fair point on the WBC/Ellis, but one other reason why Cooper didn't get multiple title shots is because he lost multiple times. Bruno only lost one non-world title fight. Yes, a weaker era, but if he'd lost as many times as Cooper, including getting KO'd at European level, he would likely only received one shot (at best), too. Plus Cooper had a chance to challenge Liston, and didn't.

Scott Welsh, agreed, an absurd "world title" challenger, but Williams and Skelton were fair enough, and they too only had the one challenge. I don't they were any worse than Brian London, say.

I'd appreciate to know the world class level fighters Bruno beat. You might mention a past it Coetzee or Williams - but lets not forget, Bruno had two title shots before fighting them. Bruno didn't even prove himself the best in Britain. Herbie Hide didn't even beat anyone in Britains top 5.

Likes of Richardson, Erskine, Foley, Mildenberger etc are better wins than Bruno had, with the exception of McCall.

Coetzee was an excellent win, and he was world class. He's just a classic example of the tradition of "He's too good for the British fighter. British fighter wins. "He was washed up"

harrygreb wrote:patterson's chin was made of sterner stuff than china. he had a pretty decent beard as it goes. if you get hit on the button by liston you're going down and johanssen could whack with immense force.

Many people will tell you Lennox Lewis had a glass chin based on three career knockdowns. Patterson was sometimes knocked down more times in individual rounds than Lewis was in his whole career.

neither man had a glass chin. they were hit with shots that you and i would never recover from.

as for the HARRY PLEB crack - well, what can i say in reply to such wit?
i'm obviously taking on a man with Oscar Wilde-like erudition so i'd better quit

overhand_right wrote:

charlieb wrote: My mistake, i forgot that fighters with crystal whiskers always loose to guys who can give and take a punch.

Well, certainly Bonavena, Quarry and Ellis, all of whom could bang, connected on his chin and none of them knocked him out. Some 'crystal whiskers' as you respectfully put it. Wonder how long you'd last with that steel chin of yours?! Hohoho.

Dont get your panties in a bunch, I was being facetious.

Patterson's one of my favourites, as is Haye for a lot of the same reasons. I was merely pointing out the fact that Patterson spent a lot of time on the canvas and to imply that he'd starch a similarly A grade fighter, careers separated by 3 decades, who possesses much of the same pros and cons, i.e. shakey chin, dynamite punch, etc., is moot at best.

Haye is everything that is right with boxing at the moment. Fact.

stujones wrote:

J wrote:er Lennox was born in London. Naturally as far as I am aware.

Also would henry have beaten Frank or Haye?

I have my doubts.

I think he would have beaten Bruno, although cuts off course was always a factor. Haye... not sure. Still alot of unanswered questions on Haye.

Still find it almost mystifying how a 39 (probably more) year old Carl Thompson beat him.

err cos it was his 11th fight his idea of training was getting pissed in tenerife / miami and chasing birds about, Haye had been blasting everyone out in a few rounds and expected to do the same with Carl, Carl was like somethig otu of the night of the living dead. Haye gassed due to setting off too hard and not training properly and also doing next to no cardio work.....put it togetha nd what do you get.....

you know the rest.

i agree that david is great for our sport and just what that division needed after so long on crap street. what would be fantastic would be a bunch of talented young fellas around haye's kind of weight to set it alight again.
i still think haye has stamina issues though.