BoxRec

mercman wrote: ↑17 Aug 2019, 09:28 The exploited thing - I think Bugner meant he was made to fight too often as a youngster. I've just had a look at his record and he was out 11 times in both 1968 and '69 - which is a pretty heavy workload by anybody's reckoning.

There are examples in the book where Bugner talks about gaps of two weeks or less between particular fights.

I would like to find more information about the relationship between Andy Smith and the big-time London promoters of the day, in addition to knowing their relationship with TV executives at the BBC. That's because such big things were expected of Bugner, the one and only British heavyweight assumed to be capable of eventually displacing Henry Cooper.

Knowing the back office dealings of those guys would explain a lot about how Bugner was developed that particular way early in his career.

I remember that World/International Boxing had Bugner on their front cover as early as 1969, long before he surfaced on the world scene. The article said that even Bugner's pro debut at the Anglo-American Club attracted lots of attention from boxing industry people.

I'm sure you've seen the video of Bugner vs Cooper (1971). The announcer (Harry Carpenter?) made several remarks emphasizing that a lot of hope and expectation was invested in Bugner by the entire UK boxing industry. On top of that, even at that early stage British promoters were aspiring to match Bugner with Ali or Frazier in London in 1971 or early 1972, which is incredible given how green and inexperienced Bugner remained at that point in time. Jack Bodell quashed that plan, though, or at least set the plan back by a year or two.

Speaking of Andy Smith, I wonder how good he was as a trainer for Bugner. I don't think Smith had much exposure training world-level fighters, outside of Dave "Boy" Green and Bugner. Smith was unquestionably a good manager. I don't doubt that. But I wonder if he had the right stuff to handle Bugner's training.

mercman wrote: ↑17 Aug 2019, 11:02 The Bodell fight must have been a big setback for Bugner and I still can't work out what happened there as Bodell was really quite limited. Maybe he just couldn't fathom the southpaw thing. It's not a problem that Jerry Quarry had though.

I believe that Bugner's problem that night was based 50% upon Bodell's southpaw style, and 50% upon a lack of true, world-level experience.

I've watched the film, and I'm convinced that Bugner simply couldn't see Bodell's left hand coming. Bugner was freaked out about not being able to see the southpaw left, and that's why he kept backing up, confused and looking to gain time to figure out what to do.

And although it's true that Bugner had something like 35 pro fights when he fought Bodell, the reality is that he had only one bout that was anything close to world-class (Cooper). Bodell, despite his limitations, was an extremely experienced, semi-world class fighter, definitely a top-20 guy. Therefore, Bodell had both a southpaw's advantage over Joe, and a big edge in seasoning vs high quality opponents.

BTW: did you know that Dick Hall, the guy who beat Bugner in Joe's 21st pro fight, was a southpaw too? I wonder if Bugner had trouble with southpaws. I'm sure you saw Bugner's 1983 match against Smiley Sutton, who was a lefty. Bugner had trouble with that guy as well.

mercman wrote: ↑17 Aug 2019, 11:02 Bugner would certainly have been young had he gone in with Ali or Frazier in '71 or '72 but I don't think he could have been described as green or inexperienced. He'd have had 35 to 40 fights and been in with the likes of Cooper, London, Blin, O'Halloran, and Wepner by then.

I tend to think it's okay to regard the 1971 Bugner as being relatively inexperienced. That's because the vast majority of his 35 to 40 pro fights were confidence builders, bouts against hand-picked opposition intended to enable Bugner to learn the basics. Again, Bugner needed to go through that lengthy period of beating up 4th rate opposition because he didn't have much of an amateur background.

I also believe that if Ali or Frazier had been brought to London to face Bugner in 1971 or early 1972, the result would have been a devastating KO or TKO defeat for young Joe. At that point in time, Bugner still lacked the maturity and seasoning to handle himself against the very best heavyweights in the world.

Bugner's limitations were especially evident in three 1971 bouts: the first Blin fight, the Bodell bout, and the Middleton fight. In fact, Joe also looked markedly unimpressive in his 1971 tune-up against Mike Boswell in Texas (based on what I read). All these performances were proof that Bugner -- despite his experience and world-rating -- was still a novice.

My understanding is that, after the Middleton loss, Bugner felt discouraged and considered retiring. Instead, he stuck with the fight game, and Andy Smith put him in the gym for some intensive remedial learning. Smith also spent most of 1972 importing lots of overmatched foes for Joe, just so Bugner could practice his new and improved skill set. The result of this remedial training was a complete success: by the end of 1972, Bugner was a much improved fighter. He KO'd tough clubfighter Tony Doyle in sharp, impressive fashion. And, of course, Bugner scored a decisive, impressive KO over Blin in their rematch later that year. These performances proved that Bugner was finally ready to face Ali and Frazier.

I once communicated with Graham Houston on the subject of Bugner. Houston went out of his way, I think, to point out that Bugner improved vastly after his 1971 defeat to Bodell. I believe Graham on that point. We could say that the Bodell and Middleton fights marked the end of the first stage of Bugner's career. After that, he got better and blossomed into the true, world-class contender we saw in the 1973-76 period.