BoxRec

Autobarn wrote:
In their mutual injury fight, I had Cotto losing to Clottey.

Mutual injury fight

I know which I'd take, a smashed up eye from round 3 (was it 3) or some fake hip limp from being bundled over in the 5th. Limp Limp fine again afterwards. Clottey was looking for low blows and points taken off on more than one occassion, to coin a phrase, "he's a moaning bitch"

Kell Brook is probably Britain's best prospect. But at the moment, regarding the world stage, he remains a prospect and needs to take steps to get there, which I'm sure he will.

But comments like 'He'll never be ready for Cotto' are, at best, uncharitable. Not sure how he's shown he is or he isn't at the moment.

He told me last night he's taking Jennings very seriously and staying on the straight and narrow because he respects him a lot. "But I'm going to have to smash him and make a statement."

Then they might consider taking my preferred option (as in Sept's BM) of the Polish Euro champ. A couple of fights at that level against decent opposition and then the world level debate can begin.

Plenty of opportunities to slip up but I, for one, really hope he doesn't.

Totally agree with that Ian.

If someone can explain in a sensible fashion exactly how Kell has shown he can never be ready for Cotto i would be interested to hear it.

In my view, he has shone brightly against domestic level opponents and shown no clear weakness (unlike Amir against similar or lower level opponents). he has looked as good against this type of opponent as anyone i can remember bar Naz.

he is clearly ready to be progressed along the path towards world class and in my humble opinion there's every chance he can get there in a couple of years. i persoanally - along with a lot of other people - think he is a little bit special. In my view it is down to his accuracy, judgment of distance and the extremely calm manner in which he picks his punches.

cotto is undoubtedly an outstanding fighter (though, to me, the word 'great' is horribly overused generally in sports punditry). i think kell has the potential to be an outstanding fighter in years to come too.

So if not Cotto, who would i class as 'great' on the world scene right now? JMM, PBF, Pacman. Hopkins and Mosley are borderline. These are guys that fans in years to come will want to know about. Williams, LOpez and Cotto may graduate to that category as well in times to come

That's just my personal analysis. Many apologies to lefthook if he finds my views 'offensive'.

Interesting Dan, considering Cotto beat Mosley in a humdinger not so long back... and before the term "old mosely" is used lets not forget his performances just before (Vargas & collazo) and just after (Margarito) were superb.

**EDIT** sorry Dan, didnt see you say mosley was "borderline". **EDIT**

I agree with Ian in we cannot judge until Brook has gone through euro class, but he's had 20 fights spanning 5 years. At exactly the same stage in his career cotto was fighting Pinto for a world title. he'd already proven himself world class by beating Cabellos, Martinez, N'dou, Maussa & Sosa. In his next 5 he'd defeat Bailey, Corley, Abdulev, Torres & Branco. And he'd looked pretty electric in beating nine of those ten fighters at WORLD CLASS (not domestic class), as good as many propects I can remember. He demolished Pinto, and avenged Abdulev in fantastic fashion.

I suppose Kell will one day be ready for cotto if he carries on upwards, and cotto will start declining! but he will never be as good as the Puerto Rican was, or is now. Cotto is being unfairly bashed down to one defeat against Margarito. Everyone is forgetting how he accelerated into the Judah fight, or ground down mosley.

If brook does end up that good, well done for seeing something special that I dont. Cotto is a once ten years fighter.

if cotto beats Pacman then there is no argument that he is a 'great' - one of the defining fighters of his generation. he will probably achieve that status regardless of that result. i just think he needs another one or two top scalps on his belt.

i totally agree that in terms of relative achievement at the same stage, kell brook is well behind Cotto. Well, well, well behind! even emma would have to admit that! Kell is also well behind the graph on what he should have achieved at this stage of his career simply by looking at the talent he has. it's not an exaggeration to say that a few years ago it seemed he would chuck his career away due to his out of the ring habits.

but the improvement he has made over the last year / 18mths has been dramatic and he is catching up with where he should be.

just for the record, though, i do recognise that he still has an extremely long way to go to catch up with Cotto!

one observation i would make about your very well argued post though - are all of the fighters you listed (abellos, Martinez, N'dou, Maussa, Sosa, Bailey, Corley, Abdulev, Torres & Branco) 'world class'? I haven't seen them all, i admit. Those i have are all tough, high quality opponents (no doubt) but to me 'world class' demands perhaps a higher standard. A number of those guys had they been European would be categorised as 'Euro level', in my view. The win against N'dou certainly stands out (but equally he had a life-and-death with Torres)

but perhaps that's just me attaching too great a demand to a certain category!

danfoster wrote:
In my view, he has shone brightly against domestic level opponents and shown no clear weakness (unlike Amir against similar or lower level opponents). he has looked as good against this type of opponent as anyone i can remember bar Naz.

.

good points. Brook has looked good/great against the domestic equivalents of Limond/ Gomez etc

danfoster wrote:
one observation i would make about your very well argued post though - are all of the fighters you listed (abellos, Martinez, N'dou, Maussa, Sosa, Bailey, Corley, Abdulev, Torres & Branco) 'world class'? I haven't seen them all, i admit. Those i have are all tough, high quality opponents (no doubt) but to me 'world class' demands perhaps a higher standard. A number of those guys had they been European would be categorised as 'Euro level', in my view. The win against N'dou certainly stands out (but equally he had a life-and-death with Torres)

All mixed frequently in world class, and had multiple world title shots, that to me leads me to believe they are world class, in that they mix(ed) frequently on the world stage.

He did go life and death with torress, but it was the first time we'd all seen torress who, it has transpired, is a murderous puncher. torress was Cottos Bredis Prescott, I think a combination of the unknown and the weight led to cotto struggling there. Shame nobody talks of his nads to get up and win, as appose to the fact he was knocked down.

Pinto is an underated win, seem to remember Junior Witter crying off from a fight with pinto.

no chance brook will beat cotto is he avin a laugh...i hope jennings beats him an think he cud

Wales wrote:Interesting Dan, considering Cotto beat Mosley in a humdinger not so long back... and before the term "old mosely" is used lets not forget his performances just before (Vargas & collazo) and just after (Margarito) were superb.

**EDIT** sorry Dan, didnt see you say mosley was "borderline". **EDIT**

I agree with Ian in we cannot judge until Brook has gone through euro class, but he's had 20 fights spanning 5 years. At exactly the same stage in his career cotto was fighting Pinto for a world title. he'd already proven himself world class by beating Cabellos, Martinez, N'dou, Maussa & Sosa. In his next 5 he'd defeat Bailey, Corley, Abdulev, Torres & Branco. And he'd looked pretty electric in beating nine of those ten fighters at WORLD CLASS (not domestic class), as good as many propects I can remember. He demolished Pinto, and avenged Abdulev in fantastic fashion.

I suppose Kell will one day be ready for cotto if he carries on upwards, and cotto will start declining! but he will never be as good as the Puerto Rican was, or is now. Cotto is being unfairly bashed down to one defeat against Margarito. Everyone is forgetting how he accelerated into the Judah fight, or ground down mosley.

If brook does end up that good, well done for seeing something special that I dont. Cotto is a once ten years fighter.

do you think maybe you're vastly overrating cotto?

Wales wrote:

danfoster wrote:
one observation i would make about your very well argued post though - are all of the fighters you listed (abellos, Martinez, N'dou, Maussa, Sosa, Bailey, Corley, Abdulev, Torres & Branco) 'world class'? I haven't seen them all, i admit. Those i have are all tough, high quality opponents (no doubt) but to me 'world class' demands perhaps a higher standard. A number of those guys had they been European would be categorised as 'Euro level', in my view. The win against N'dou certainly stands out (but equally he had a life-and-death with Torres)

All mixed frequently in world class, and had multiple world title shots, that to me leads me to believe they are world class, in that they mix(ed) frequently on the world stage.

He did go life and death with torress, but it was the first time we'd all seen torress who, it has transpired, is a murderous puncher. torress was Cottos Bredis Prescott, I think a combination of the unknown and the weight led to cotto struggling there. Shame nobody talks of his nads to get up and win, as appose to the fact he was knocked down.

Pinto is an underated win, seem to remember Junior Witter crying off from a fight with pinto.

re Torres. a great fight. however, how about Cotto's cheating, the blatant low blows when he's in danger of getting stopped?

Autobarn wrote:

Wales wrote:Interesting Dan, considering Cotto beat Mosley in a humdinger not so long back... and before the term "old mosely" is used lets not forget his performances just before (Vargas & collazo) and just after (Margarito) were superb.

**EDIT** sorry Dan, didnt see you say mosley was "borderline". **EDIT**

I agree with Ian in we cannot judge until Brook has gone through euro class, but he's had 20 fights spanning 5 years. At exactly the same stage in his career cotto was fighting Pinto for a world title. he'd already proven himself world class by beating Cabellos, Martinez, N'dou, Maussa & Sosa. In his next 5 he'd defeat Bailey, Corley, Abdulev, Torres & Branco. And he'd looked pretty electric in beating nine of those ten fighters at WORLD CLASS (not domestic class), as good as many propects I can remember. He demolished Pinto, and avenged Abdulev in fantastic fashion.

I suppose Kell will one day be ready for cotto if he carries on upwards, and cotto will start declining! but he will never be as good as the Puerto Rican was, or is now. Cotto is being unfairly bashed down to one defeat against Margarito. Everyone is forgetting how he accelerated into the Judah fight, or ground down mosley.

If brook does end up that good, well done for seeing something special that I dont. Cotto is a once ten years fighter.

do you think maybe you're vastly overrating cotto?

aye agreed. whilst offensively Cotto has a little of the JCC to him, i think we should remember that neither his defence, chin or overal ring skills are at that level, which is where i would have a 'once in a decade fighter' meself, like.

I like Kel Brook - I actually think he is the best young boxer we have in this country - however - to say he is ready for Cotto now is jumping a step too far at this stage - another year or 2 maybe - but not yet.

I am not trying to diminish Brooks achievements to date - just dont think he can take on one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world just yet.

Wales wrote:

Autobarn wrote:
In their mutual injury fight, I had Cotto losing to Clottey.

Mutual injury fight

I know which I'd take, a smashed up eye from round 3 (was it 3) or some fake hip limp from being bundled over in the 5th. Limp Limp fine again afterwards. Clottey was looking for low blows and points taken off on more than one occassion, to coin a phrase, "he's a moaning bitch"

well Clottey might be a moaner, but he couldn't walk or stand properly. it messed up his balance and his ability to throw a right hand. both men were held back by injuries.

if you wanted to be nasty, the head clash that affected cotto was accidental, and the throw that messed up clottey's leg was deliberate.

they were both injured and cotto probably deserved to lose. it doesn't matter. he's on the way out.

pac will show you how overated cotto is.

Wont go six. Cotto likes to fight at his own pace and pac wont let that happen for sure.

Thought moseley deserved the nod and margerito just about finished him as a top tier fighter.

Was only two fights ago people, pac gonna dismantle Miguel mark my words.

Kell still hasnt mixed it anywhere near that class and needs to develop however.