BoxRec

Holmes had his prime in 70's (and even there he had problems with shot Norton) and in 80's he had close fight with otherwise not so great Witherspoon (the same with Williams), so let's not make him any better than he really was.

And English is not my mothertongue, so when I said "he has a chance" I meant something like that wouldn't bet on any of them (unless, of course, one of them would be severe underdog).

gregor wrote:Holmes had his prime in 70's (and even there he had problems with shot Norton) and in 80's he had close fight with otherwise not so great Witherspoon (the same with Williams), so let's not make him any better than he really was.

And English is not my mothertongue, so when I said "he has a chance" I meant something like that wouldn't bet on any of them (unless, of course, one of them would be severe underdog).

Norton was 'shot'? Yes, so shot he was WBC champion, haven beaten Young and Ali (despite what the judges said) the year before . . .

The Witherspoon who had a close one with Larry would've beaten Vitali as well.

That Spoon could handle both Klitschko's in the same night.

dempseyfire wrote:Norton was 'shot'? Yes, so shot he was WBC champion, haven beaten Young and Ali (despite what the judges said) the year before . . .

The Witherspoon who had a close one with Larry would've beaten Vitali as well.

- Woulda, coulda, shoulda kept in shape but instead the forerunner to Mr. TwoTons of Toney. No soft lazy lad is beating Vitali.

How sweetly disingenous you are, always dragging out these dead horses to beat on. Interesting how we had Ali, and then his #1 boy clone Mr. Larry, and then that type and style dropped off the face of boxing, done in by Little Leon of Spinks Manor, humilated by younger Spinks, and then demolished by Tyson. Oh, Page, Tucker, Douglas, Briggs, they had good talent, certainly better than Mr. Larry, but that type dwindled and disappeared. Oh, I guess somewhere you could find it warming the feet of the last dodo bird on earth hiding out in a cave somewhere.

Meantime, Vitali is doing something Ali and Mr. Larry never accomplished, beating the whoop-whoop out of big strong prime contenders and champs at an age they were getting fitted for bibs and bigger shorts.

Against a prime Larry Holmes, I'd be mildly surprised if Vitali Klitschko won a round. If Klitschko won more than five rounds of a fifteen-rounder, I'd hazard a guess Holmes was having an off-night.

It would be ridiculously easy for a boxer of Holmes' calibre to outbox the eternally-robotic older Klitschko.

Briggs?

I suggest others ignore BRR like I now do. His ridiculous comments ensure him being a troll of the lowest order.

On career best wins

Wlad, Lewis, Tua rank ahead of him now. Lets not forget many scored the ike fight for Tua.

Tua lost to the same fighters as Vitali.

Byrd beat Vitali, Holyfield, Tua, drew with Golotta. Wins over Tua, and Vitali no matter what the reason's are impressive.

Vitali is the fifth best heavyweight of his Era.

1. Lewis
2. Wlad ( got to admit being unbeaten for five years is impressive, having avenged a defeat, beaten a lineal champion, ruining Bryd, not a bad effort).
3. Byrd ( not exciting but held the belt for a while has wins over vitali and tua and holyfield, holyfield beat rhaman and valuev since then.)
4. Tua ( should have a win over Ike, only lost to the same fighters Vitali lost to.) If he had that win over Ike which he deserved, only beated twice, and has beaten more top ten contenders than Vitali.
5. Vitali lost to the best two fighters he faced. Ike beat Byrd, I believe Tua beat Ike, and then Bryd beat Tua.

In the eighties

Vitali would fight a series of stylistic matches. He loses to Holmes, Tyson. He would beat some of Bruno, Witherspoon, Smith, Ruddock, Tucker, Tubbs, Page, Berbick, Weaver, Dokes, Willliams, old Foreman, but he would not beat all of them either.

You can certainly make a case for Tua besting Ibeabuchi, but the way I read you, you're calling it a robbery --- if so, that's absurd. It was a swing-fight --- it's not unfair to say Ibeabuchi won (that was how I scored it, too).

Happy ranting

dempseyfire wrote:Considering Vitali has never beat a heavyweight even on the level of a prime Coatzee or Page . . .I question some assertions that he 'beats them all'. Vitali doesn't have the massive letdowns on his record that his brother does but he has also beat much weaker comp . . .Sam Peter, Kirk Johnson, and Corrie Sanders wouldn't even have been top 10 in the 1980s. Winning rounds vs a fat old Lewis but ultimately losing (and getting hurt) suggests to me he's a solid beltholder in the 80s but only 1 of the many.

This, this, this.

Vitali has no wins over men of merit. He doesn't even possess a win over anyone of note in their prime! The overrating here of him is pure loony tunes. Klit couldn't even put away weak opponents such as the bloated ancient Corrie Sanders and the bloated ancient Shannon Briggs . . . and therfore he's walking over the 80s champs and even scoring stoppages?

Utterly unreal.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Klitschko-Witherspoon'd be intriguing. Not sure who I'd favour, there. I wouldn't mind seeing it, even if it didn't prove all that exhilarating.

That would be the best fight of the whole bunch. A great fight that would be if Witherspoon comes well prepared.

Ezzard wrote:We had Vitali in the 70s. How would he fare in the lacklustre 1980s?

Taken from the Ring ratings at the end of 1985 (puiblished in March 86).

Michael Spinks, Champion

1 Pinklon Thomas
2 Larry Holmes
3 Tim Witherspoon
4 Tony Tubbs
5 Greg Page
6 Gerrie Coetzee
7 Trevor Berbick
8 Carl Williams
9 Mike Weaver
10 Michael Dokes

1.Vitaly SD Spinks
2.Vitaly TKO 7 Thomas
3.Larry Holmes UD Vitaly
4.Witherspoon UD Vitaly
5.Vitaly UD Tubbs
6.Page UD Vitaly
7.Vitaly TKO 10 Coetzee
8.Vitaly TKO 9 Berbick
9.Vitaly TKO 6 Williams
10.Vitaly TKO 2 Weaver
11.Vitaly TKO 11 Dokes

Sorry for the bump...but this is an entertaining thread :)
I hope it continues on.

How can people who defend the many chubby fighters (many who were "titlists") of the 80's put down the modern heavies for being the same? And to claim that any of them could beat Vitali? Can anyone seriously think that Tony Tubbs would have defeated Vitali Klitschko? Oh my...

Aside from being in excellent shape for all of his fights, Vitali Klitschko was no robot in the ring...look at the way he fought! Both hands down, quickly moving out of corners and the ropes, nailing his opponents with accurate, and powerful shots. Taunting his granite chin.
The squat, charge right in, and throw no punches(!) type of opponents are the real robots.

Tyson cleaned up the late 80's mess. Vitali's younger brother Wladimir has cleaned up the past decade's mess.
After that, hopefully we'll see a new champ who takes his sport just as seriously.
And remember the ultimate goal of boxing is to hit and not be hit....ie to win.

Take care :)

The 80s HWs were by and large in top shape: Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Tyson, Bruno, Snipes, Smith, Weaver etc. came into fights ripped and ready. When Witherspoon, Page and Tubbs entered into fights not in top shape, that was so noteworthy because it was still relatively rare in boxing. Now being 20-40 lbs overweight has become so routine that its not even mentioned anymore.

To see how times have changed, look at Buster Douglas vs Holyfield . .a 6'4 guy in the 240s. He was endlessly ridiculed as being fat blimp, a whale etc. If he were fighting today he'd be considered one of the more fit fighters in the division!

Oops I didn't post my hypothetical results:

Vitali KO Spinks
Vitali UD Thomas
Vitali SD Holmes
Vitali UD Witherspoon
Vitali KO Tubbs
Vitali KO Page
Vitali KO Coetzee
Vitali KO Berbick
Vitali UD Williams
Vitali KO Weaver
Vitali SD Dokes

Obviously these are imaginary fights...and some of the decision wins might go against Vitali Klitschko, who knows. But it's hard for me to imagine Vitali ever being knocked out by anyone. He was never even decked once in his career, and I don't see any of these fighters dropping him.

dempseyfire wrote:The 80s HWs were by and large in top shape: Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Tyson, Bruno, Snipes, Smith, Weaver etc. came into fights ripped and ready. When Witherspoon, Page and Tubbs entered into fights not in top shape, that was so noteworthy because it was still relatively rare in boxing. Now being 20-40 lbs overweight has become so routine that its not even mentioned anymore.

To see how times have changed, look at Buster Douglas vs Holyfield . .a 6'4 guy in the 240s. He was endlessly ridiculed as being fat blimp, a whale etc. If he were fighting today he'd be considered one of the more fit fighters in the division!

Oh of course, but I was looking at the top 10 from the OP.
5 of the fighters you listed from the 80's aren't on there. Tucker is one of my favorite boxers :)
In fact, I really think Tucker is one of the most underrated of all the 80's heavyweight fighters.

Assuming it's 1986 version of these fighters v vitali
Spinks dances and jives his way to a 15 round win he would utterly expose the myth of vital as an atg. Cooney hit harder and had more skills but didn't have the discipline,winning mentality,stamina and alcohol free body of vitality.



Thomas at his very best gives him fits before being kayoed.
1986 Holmes has enough to win on pts.
Witherspoon stops vitality in 10.
Vitali KO Tubbs
Vitali KO Page
Vitali KO Coetzee
Vitali KO Berbick
Vitali Ko Williams
Vitali KO Weaver
Vitali ko s dokes

I'd give him a good shot at beating most of the 80's crew. Of course with his luck, I can see something freakish happening like an injury or some mishap that causes him to a lose to someone here and there. But ability wise, I wouldn't make anyone a clear favorite over him with the exception of perhaps a prime a Holmes.

I wouldn't rule out Holmes causing a upset even in his mid 30's Holmes was past his best by this stage he'd lost some bounce in his leg's but not in his head smart enough to stay out of serious trouble early then pull back the point's with his boxing brain/heart to win a split dec over 15 round's. As for Witherspoon the first time I seen him in action was when he lost a close dec to Holmes, Witherspoon had only about 15 pro fight's He fought like a much more experienced fighter his boxing ability/footwork/defence was unreal I believe he would have been an all time great if he was more dedicated/serious about his craft, IF WITHERSPOON TURNS UP FIT/MOTIVATED HE WINS A UN DEC OVER VITALI WITHOUT DOUBT.

Wins over Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs go a long way it seems.

Tuan_Jim wrote:Wins over Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs go a long way it seems.

Sanders was a much more dangerous fighter than say, the 80's Coetzee.
The late Sanders was a top 5 fighter in his time with tremendous power.

Shannon Briggs...meh.

But 4 of Vitali's final 13 opponents were undefeated contenders, and 4 had merely one defeat before they met Vitali. And Vitali beat them all convincingly.
You have to give him some credit for heaven's sake.

cjdragon wrote:Sorry for the bump...but this is an entertaining thread :)
I hope it continues on.

How can people who defend the many chubby fighters (many who were "titlists") of the 80's put down the modern heavies for being the same? And to claim that any of them could beat Vitali? Can anyone seriously think that Tony Tubbs would have defeated Vitali Klitschko? Oh my...

Aside from being in excellent shape for all of his fights, Vitali Klitschko was no robot in the ring...look at the way he fought! Both hands down, quickly moving out of corners and the ropes, nailing his opponents with accurate, and powerful shots. Taunting his granite chin.
The squat, charge right in, and throw no punches(!) type of opponents are the real robots.

Tyson cleaned up the late 80's mess. Vitali's younger brother Wladimir has cleaned up the past decade's mess.
After that, hopefully we'll see a new champ who takes his sport just as seriously.
And remember the ultimate goal of boxing is to hit and not be hit....ie to win.

Take care :)

It sure was an entertaining thread.
I'll tell u exactly how these "chubby fighters could beat vitali".firstly a cabal of new York writers called these men chubby.by today's standards they are built like hercules. Guys like spoon,dokes and tubbs all bought things to the table that vitali and the last decade of hw boxing have never seen.raw heavyweight athleticism,old skool know how ,blistering hand speed and awkward combinations, and in the case of two of them considerable power. Even substandard versions of these guys say spoon1996 and dokes 88 and the tubbs who fought bowe would have a good chance let alone peak ones. Holmes in 1986 and the spinks of 87 had too much nous and skill.Lol tyson would murder him if he had his left arm down,even a physically gifted freak like the late 89 razor Ruddock would ko vitali. When u think of the last era of even semi talented american hws with talent ie byrd,brewster,devarrly williamson,toney circa 2004-2005......one way or the other the klitchkos had problems with them or in toneys case avoided him. They avoided Rahman too till he was finished.a fat slob like Samuel Peter when he wasn't shot put wlad on the floor four times.a pensioner version of Lennox Lewis tore vitalis face to shreds. What Holmes 86"s jab would have done doesn't bear thinking about.now I'm going to start talking like burgess meredith to Rocky in Rocky 2 and tell vitali u got the heart kid but u don't got the tools. We didnt need a ancient version of 1970s foreman to tell us the 70s crop was better than most 90s heavyweights and likewise we don't need a time machine here.

mugabi wrote:

cjdragon wrote:Sorry for the bump...but this is an entertaining thread :)
I hope it continues on.

How can people who defend the many chubby fighters (many who were "titlists") of the 80's put down the modern heavies for being the same? And to claim that any of them could beat Vitali? Can anyone seriously think that Tony Tubbs would have defeated Vitali Klitschko? Oh my...

Aside from being in excellent shape for all of his fights, Vitali Klitschko was no robot in the ring...look at the way he fought! Both hands down, quickly moving out of corners and the ropes, nailing his opponents with accurate, and powerful shots. Taunting his granite chin.
The squat, charge right in, and throw no punches(!) type of opponents are the real robots.

Tyson cleaned up the late 80's mess. Vitali's younger brother Wladimir has cleaned up the past decade's mess.
After that, hopefully we'll see a new champ who takes his sport just as seriously.
And remember the ultimate goal of boxing is to hit and not be hit....ie to win.

Take care :)

It sure was an entertaining thread.
I'll tell u exactly how these "chubby fighters could beat vitali".firstly a cabal of new York writers called these men chubby.by today's standards they are built like hercules. Guys like spoon,dokes and tubbs all bought things to the table that vitali and the last decade of hw boxing have never seen.raw heavyweight athleticism,old skool know how ,blistering hand speed and awkward combinations, and in the case of two of them considerable power. Even substandard versions of these guys say spoon1996 and dokes 88 and the tubbs who fought bowe would have a good chance let alone peak ones. Holmes in 1986 and the spinks of 87 had too much nous and skill.Lol tyson would murder him if he had his left arm down,even a physically gifted freak like the late 89 razor Ruddock would ko vitali. When u think of the last era of even semi talented american hws with talent ie byrd,brewster,devarrly williamson,toney circa 2004-2005......one way or the other the klitchkos had problems with them or in toneys case avoided him. They avoided Rahman too till he was finished.a fat slob like Samuel Peter when he wasn't shot put wlad on the floor four times.a pensioner version of Lennox Lewis tore vitalis face to shreds. What Holmes 86"s jab would have done doesn't bear thinking about.now I'm going to start talking like burgess meredith to Rocky in Rocky 2 and tell vitali u got the heart kid but u don't got the tools. We didnt need a ancient version of 1970s foreman to tell us the 70s crop was better than most 90s heavyweights and likewise we don't need a time machine here.

I disagree. :) Trust me, in a couple decades those of us still alive (hopefully I live that long) will be yearning for the good old days of the 2010's.
Because it doesn't matter how good any crop of "current" fighters are...we'll all miss the good old days when our favorite boxers were in their prime.