BoxRec

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Somebody that was completely owned by Frankie Randall, really has some short comings.

first, this isn't supposed to come across all confrontational so please don't take it that way.

do we have to say of a fighter that he struggled with absolutely noone, had everyone's style for breakfast, otherwise he is not an ATG?

Randall was a fine boxer with great skills, great jab, decent speed, toughness. he was something of a wreck by way of drugs by the time JCC fought him, but then the effects of 90-odd fights had taken their toll on JCC too. randall could have ended up doing a lot more with his career and he treated the Chavez fights very seriously.

FWIW i think on his best night Randall gives plenty of HOF lightweights something to think about and maybe beats a couple of em.

i don't think struggling with him necessarily precludes greatness, myself. all fighters can struggle with someone who has just the right style to make them look poor, and for me thats at least half of what went on between Randall and JCC.

it seems to me the conclusion of what you're saying is, noone who has ever struggled with a fighter who himself was not an ATG'er, should themselves be considered an ATG?

to me thats the kind of criteria that would mean excluding a LOT of fighters from the HOF

i agree with your placing of Chavez at around 30-50 or whatever it was, by the way. I guess i just think that + his record is slightly more impressive than you do..

Not taken as confrontational and I certainly am not offended. In all honesty, that post didn't make a shred of sense.

I've never said any such thing, just pointing out that frankie Randall completely owned him. It seemed fitting after a straight list of number like the post I was responding to and the poster rattling off names like Randall as if Chavez deserves credit for their "trilogy".

He struggled mightily with Lockridge & laporte as well. All solid fighters, all guys that a fighter as great as Julio was supposed to be would probably handle with less difficulty.

He didn't struggle with Randall, Randall kicked his ass.

I was done with this topic weeks ago, he was clearly overrated to me and I'd rank him closer to 75, but that isn't much different.

I was done with this topic weeks ago also. There is no way Chavez should be considered overrated. Chavez deserves to be mentioned among the All Time Greats.

saadoffthedeck,

i bet you can't find one boxer today with the stats and credentials of chavez?

* 27 successful title defenses (all-time record)
* 23 successful title defenses before losing his first bout
* 31-4-2 22 KO's world title record
* 89-0-1 75 KO's before losing first fight
* 16 successful title defenses at jr. welterweight (record)
* 9 years as champion in 3 weight classes before losing first fight
* rated as the top jr. welterweight of all-time

so come on, name me one fighter in the last 40-50 years with this kind of resume! CASE CLOSED!!!

saad,

juan la porte and rocky lockridge? surely you don't think these fighters were pushovers, do you? for your info, they were both former world champions and
quality ones at that! frankie randall? yes, chavez did lose to him, so what? after a 89-0-1 start a loss was understandable. besides, chavez did make 23 title
defenses BEFORE his first loss at 89-0-1? tell me who as EVER done that. 27 successful title defenses HAS to count as pretty impressive before he's the
ONLY fighter to have EVER done that? not de la hoya, sugar ray leonard, thomas hearns, pacquiao, finito lopez, hagler, NOBODY!!! so tell me, name one fighter
who can match these numbers in the last 40-50 years! again, CASE CLOSED!

* Yawns*

saad,

EXACTLY!

Boxing is about more than just numbers or Zsolt Erdei would be a legend.

yeah, and how many divisional championships has he won, how many title defenses has he had? again, name me ONE fighter in the last
40-50 years that can come close to matching chavez' accomplishments? name ONE!

Duran, Hearns, Whitaker, Leonard, Spinks, Hagler, Griffith, Monzon, Mayweather, pacquiao, Olivares, Morales, Hopkins, Jones, Ali, Foreman, Holyfield,Sanchez, Jofre, Harada, Benitez, Nelson, Gomez, Trinidad, Mosley, Pedroza, Zarate, Holmes.

That's just off the top of my head. Happy?

You’re wrong again. None of those fighters had the number of title defenses AND unbeaten streak that Chavez had.

...in these days of numerous titles in many weight classes i don't pay much attention to them.

but...i can't see how anyone would call chavez overrated. i judge him by his over-all career and his obvious talent.

Aftermath wrote:You’re wrong again. None of those fighters had the number of title defenses AND unbeaten streak that Chavez had.

LOL, you fail at reading. I was asked to name guys that approached Chavez accomplishments. I named several that did a lot more and some that are at the same level.

I mean do you guys consider Chavez to be greater than Whitaker? Just trying to get a grip on what kind of fanatics I'm dealing with.

jaclem2 wrote:...in these days of numerous titles in many weight classes i don't pay much attention to them.

but...i can't see how anyone would call chavez overrated. i judge him by his over-all career and his obvious talent.

To each their own, I can't see how anyone could call Thomas Hearns overrated. His career and talent are superior to Julio.

hearns' might have had the superior talent but definitely not the superior accomplishments. as far as whitaker is concerned, i stated earlier that on chavez' best days he probably couldn't beat him. happy? now again, name me ANY FIGHTER in the last 40-50 years who accomplished more than chavez did? you can't, and do you know why? NOBODY did what he did for so long and so good? i'll be waiting for your list!!!

milmascaras1 wrote:hearns' might have had the superior talent but definitely not the superior accomplishments. as far as whitaker is concerned, i stated earlier that on chavez' best days he probably couldn't beat him. happy? now again, name me ANY FIGHTER in the last 40-50 years who accomplished more than chavez did? you can't, and do you know why? NOBODY did what he did for so long and so good? i'll be waiting for your list!!!

You already got a list and I could add to it.

Hearns beat legitimate fighters from Welterweight to Cruiserweight, he destroyed Roberto Duran and Outboxed Ray Leonard, Wilfred benitez & Virgil Hill.

You just rank accomplishments by numbers and you lack credibility. Who you fought matters more than how many bums you starched.

Like i said earlier Zsolt Erdei is on his way to God status by your evaluations.

Samson Dutch Boy retired undefeated and had 30+ title defenses. Drool on him too.

Your posts are the perfect example of why I call Chavez overrated. The most accomplished fighter of the last 50 years? That's lunacy and you're not alone. He was a great fighter, but he has a blind and fanatical fan base.

ahem, samson dutchboy's title defenses were not "legit" defenses. he didn't hold any of the major ABC belts. as far as hearns goes, sure he had better skills than chavez. i mean, how many boxers in history can you say had better overall skills than hearns? very few i bet. but as skilled as hearns was he too lost in his absolute prime whereas chavez' first loss happened when he was 31 yo. and after 90 fights (89-0-1). that's why guys like bert sugar and other boxing historians have chavez at number 17 all-time p4p and have him rated higher than hearns. so again, you're reaching at straws and are sounding more desperate with every post!

milmascaras1 wrote:ahem, samson dutchboy's title defenses were not "legit" defenses. he didn't hold any of the major ABC belts. as far as hearns goes, sure he had better skills than chavez. i mean, how many boxers in history can you say had better overall skills than hearns? very few i bet. but as skilled as hearns was he too lost in his absolute prime whereas chavez' first loss happened when he was 31 yo. and after 90 fights (89-0-1). that's why guys like bert sugar and other boxing historians have chavez at number 17 all-time p4p and have him rated higher than hearns. so again, you're reaching at straws and are sounding more desperate with every post!

Oh, so now you differentiate between titles and opponents?

Bert Sugar is a buffoon, so that isn't helping your cause. I'm not grasping at straws, I'm just humoring you because your nuthugging amuses me.

Samson Dutch Boy is the GOAT! Nobody can top his record, nobody!

so in your mind was dutch boy greater than chavez? damn, i'm friggin' wasting my time talking to a kid with no clue!!!

How dare you sully the great accomplishments of Dutch Boy Gym. I have learned from you that opposition is irrelevant and all that matters are numbers.

Long live Dutch Boy and his 38 title defenses of the prestigious WBF Jr Bantamweight title. He took on all comers and never lost a fight.

If Chavez is more accomplished than Ali or Duran in your world, Dutch Boy may as well be the man.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Definitely was overrated, mainly because of rabid fans like yourself. Joey Gamache? Please tell me you didn't just list that as some sort of win worth mentioning. You even list the third Randall fight as something of significance.

The best thing I can say about that post is that it was quite long and you must have spent a good deal of time on it. Doesn't change a thing about Chavez career, sorry.

He was a surefire HOFer that many place tags of greatness on him that he never earned in the ring. Somebody that was completely owned by Frankie Randall, really has some short comings.

What a complete shoot-yourself-in-the-foot moment that last sentence was. Please. As though life-&-death with Iran fucken Barkley is indicative of a being soooo superior --- minus all the extra fights & years & wear-&-tear Chavez had, mind.

Sounds to me, having taken in this last page, Saad's case is a classic example of someone being so fed up with fanboys & cheerleaders for a fighter, he'll take a stand against them, hard-line.

Done it myself. We almost all have 8)

nobody's thinking chavez was the greatest fighter to ever live but to simply call him overrated, is well, either not knowing anything about boxing or just being plain ignorant. there is no doubt chavez had his share of "taxicab driver" opponents but not many people can match his accomplishments especially in the last 40-50 years! all the great fighters in history had their share of "bums", "jeepney drivers", "tijuana taxi drivers" etc...but i can bet you will not find another fighter in history who was 89-0-1, already a 3 time division champion, had 23 successful title defenses before tasting his first defeat. can anybody here name me one fighter with this accomplishment? i'm not saying chavez was the most talented fighter, or the greatest puncher, or he greatest right or left hooker, jabber, etc...what i am saying is that for someone to have been "slow", he sure accomplished a hell of alot more than 99 pct. of boxers in history ever did. and that my friends, is isimply incredible whether you like him or not!!!