BoxRec

The Great John L wrote:While probably over rated based on his performance aginst Louis, to call Farr one of the 3 worst HWs to fight for a HW title is pretty indefensible.

I base it on a couple of things......

Check out some clips of farr's fights...forget that the guy was someone you always wanted to win....and observe his total lack of technical skill. This is GLAREING in the Bradock fight. Farr's sole attribute as a fighter was that he was fearless....but so were Chuck Wepner and Richard Dunn

He lost to fighters that no one who should be concidered a legit contender should have lost to. All great fighters have their occasional Ross Pruiity on their records, but none have them in double figures...and seldom in what is supposed to be the prime of their careers

Just sayin

fourreal wrote:

The Great John L wrote:While probably over rated based on his performance aginst Louis, to call Farr one of the 3 worst HWs to fight for a HW title is pretty indefensible.

I base it on a couple of things......

Check out some clips of farr's fights...forget that the guy was someone you always wanted to win....and observe his total lack of technical skill. This is GLAREING in the Bradock fight. Farr's sole attribute as a fighter was that he was fearless....but so were Chuck Wepner and Richard Dunn

He lost to fighters that no one who should be concidered a legit contender should have lost to. All great fighters have their occasional Ross Pruiity on their records, but none have them in double figures...and seldom in what is supposed to be the prime of their careers

Just sayin

At the time of his title fight, Farr was the best HW in England and one of the 2 or 3 best on the continent. He had beaten Max Baer, Tommy Loughran and Walter Neusal and performed very well against Louis. Yes he lost quite a few fights, and you might not appreciate his style, but he did have a lot more successes in the ring than most of the other fighters mentioned in this thread. Have a look at Jewey Smith and Jack Finnegan.

The Great John L wrote:

fourreal wrote:

The Great John L wrote:While probably over rated based on his performance aginst Louis, to call Farr one of the 3 worst HWs to fight for a HW title is pretty indefensible.

I base it on a couple of things......

Check out some clips of farr's fights...forget that the guy was someone you always wanted to win....and observe his total lack of technical skill. This is GLAREING in the Bradock fight. Farr's sole attribute as a fighter was that he was fearless....but so were Chuck Wepner and Richard Dunn

He lost to fighters that no one who should be concidered a legit contender should have lost to. All great fighters have their occasional Ross Pruiity on their records, but none have them in double figures...and seldom in what is supposed to be the prime of their careers

Just sayin

At the time of his title fight, Farr was the best HW in England and one of the 2 or 3 best on the continent. He had beaten Max Baer, Tommy Loughran and Walter Neusal and performed very well against Louis. Yes he lost quite a few fights, and you might not appreciate his style, but he did have a lot more successes in the ring than most of the other fighters mentioned in this thread. Have a look at Jewey Smith and Jack Finnegan.

Fair enough......these types of discussions always come down to perception and the intangable anyway. Trying to narrow this question down to 3 is impossible. Shoukld be more like top 20 in "no particular order"

Ironicly, Farr sticks out in my mind BECAUSE he was such a gutsy performer, and the disparity between his guts and his skill stands out.

Is there an exact scince to determine if he was better or worse then Alfredo Evangilista or King Levinski ? Probably not

BTW...I had forgotten he had beaten Loughran....Good catch

I don't know how anyone could look at Farr and say he lacked skill. He had one of the best left jabs in the HW division at the time, was a skilled counter-puncher, showed good movement and footwork.

To say he had a total lack of technical skill is either due to blindness or a complete ignorance of the fundamentals of boxing.

And who were these bums he lost to in his prime? At his best he only lost to Louis, Baer (who he also beat), Nova, Braddock in a robbery, and Burman who he split fights with and was a very skilled guy himself.

We are talking about back when there was only one true HW Champion?
John L. Sullivan to Muhammad Ali.
Chuck Wepner won the national GG in 1964,and he was even offered a job as a sparring partner to Sonny Liston,when Liston was
preparing for the original rematch with Ali in Boston in Nov 1964.
Wepner wasnt the worst.

Here is what Joe Louis had to say about Tommy Farr in his 1978 autobiography,MY LIFE.
PP127-128.

"He was one tough guy".
He was a good socker".
He was tough and had a lot of heart''.
He took a punch as well as anybody I ever hit".

Pete Rademacher was the Gold medallist, boxed Patterson well in his challenege and scored some good wins later in his brief career. He even scored a flash knockdown of Patterson, so overall I would say he doesn't deserve to be on any 'worst of' list.

overhand_right wrote:Pete Rademacher was the Gold medallist, boxed Patterson well in his challenege and scored some good wins later in his brief career. He even scored a flash knockdown of Patterson, so overall I would say he doesn't deserve to be on any 'worst of' list.

I agree.

But I'd say he would be close to the top of a list of "Least deserving to fight the Undisputed Heavyweight Champ".

Farr is far(r) from being the worse challenger.

Joe Louis refered to Jack Roper as"One hell of a left-hooker".
and admited in his autobiography that Roper almost knocked him down with a left hook.
IMOP that was one of Louis better title defenses as far as action.

hhaehre wrote:

Robinson wrote: I think Scott Frank on his worst night would have bested all of those Gypsies,
'wrasslers' and London tuff's had he ever met them under any rules..

He he, whenever someone starts to fantasize about Gorman, Shaw, Mclean etc. I always direct them to the Cooper-Savage fight. That fight is just about the perfect example of what happens when self proclaimed tough guy meets trained professional boxer.

I agree with both of you.
Savage was also supposed to compete in some heavyweight tournament back in the eighties. Tubbs, Tucker , Bonecrusher , etc etc. The usual group were gonna go at it for some title.
Somehow Savage was signed up to fight in it.
The press made him out to be some bareknuckle champion badas.
One day shortly before the begining of the tourny, he was watching a sparring session between Bonecrusher and Tubbs.
He stood there stunned when the fighters finished up. Crusher looked at him as he was walking out of the ring and said,"This aint no street crap Joe. This is what we do for a living".
Savage withdrew from the tournament shortly after that little exchange with a "hand injury".

On topic, I dont know who the worst challenger was, but one thing for sure, Johnny Paycheck probably didnt belong in there with Joe Louis.

fourreal wrote:

The Great John L wrote:While probably over rated based on his performance aginst Louis, to call Farr one of the 3 worst HWs to fight for a HW title is pretty indefensible.

I base it on a couple of things......

Check out some clips of farr's fights...forget that the guy was someone you always wanted to win....and observe his total lack of technical skill. This is GLAREING in the Bradock fight. Farr's sole attribute as a fighter was that he was fearless....but so were Chuck Wepner and Richard Dunn

He lost to fighters that no one who should be concidered a legit contender should have lost to. All great fighters have their occasional Ross Pruiity on their records, but none have them in double figures...and seldom in what is supposed to be the prime of their careers

Just sayin

If you think Farr has a total lack of skills then do not venture to far back before the
20s then...
Farr developed from fighting ALOT, as a young man in tent boxing and up through the
ranks, he did a lot of things wrong, but he also did alot of things right and he gained a
lot of experience, a steady in ring composure and a decent jab that allowed him to earn
his place as a title challenger..he was also the first to go so far with THAT version of
Louis.
Not to bad for a 'lacking' Welshman.

Pug

I love that story :)

trying to work out whether worst means performance ..or record


marvis certainly got blown away like a rag by Holmes (performance and legitimacy are low, hed only outpointed bugner and broad)

a heck of a lot of the klits opps have just soaked up punches all night and thrown absolutely nothing....

the best of all for that was Scott ledoux...

also lucien rodriquex

peter okhello (his record was one of the most undeserving of all time)

Has anyone here seen the both of the two rounds of Joe Louis vrs Johnny Paycheck bout?
Ive only seen the second round highlight when Louis landed his"right-handed Sunday punch"
to Paycheck's jaw.
Paycheck was knocked down three times in the first round but kept getting up.
Joe Louis said that Paycheck had a pretty good punch when he could land it
I think we need to see the entire fight before one can vote it as Louis's worst defense of the title.

funso banjo baby wrote:peter okhello (his record was one of the most undeserving of all time)

Yep, another good call. Illustration of how winning an affiliated regional title bringing a world ranking can be a bad thing. On that note, Joe Bugner was ranked in the WBA top 10 after winning the PABA strap at age 48!

When someone picks Farr, you wonder "why am I on this thread?"...

I would also like to see the whole Paycheck bout as I've also only seen the HL KO. Paycheck is one of those guys who on film looks pathetic . . not much musculature and badly balding. He did manage to knockout Levinsky and Al Ettore, who were very hard to stop, so he must have had some power. But he was clearly one of the weakest of the Louis challengers.

if u count the exhibition louis had with that 3-3-0 guy that the NYSAC made as a title bout, then that guy was the worst ever.

[quote="dempseyfire"]I would also like to see the whole Paycheck bout as I've also only seen the HL KO. Paycheck is one of those guys who on film looks pathetic . . not much musculature and badly balding. He did manage to knockout Levinsky and Al Ettore, who were very hard to stop, so he must have had some power. But he was clearly one of the weakest of the Louis challengers.[/quote

Was Paycheck really a bellhop?
Reportly he came out of another "White Hope tournement ,that was organized to defeat Joe Louis after Joe Louis brutaly knocked out Max Schmeling.
Then he froze up before the bout like King Levinsky and Max Baer.

oliverfennell wrote:

funso banjo baby wrote:peter okhello (his record was one of the most undeserving of all time)

Yep, another good call. Illustration of how winning an affiliated regional title bringing a world ranking can be a bad thing. On that note, Joe Bugner was ranked in the WBA top 10 after winning the PABA strap at age 48!

this was mid 80's ..way before bugner's next comeback....bugner had just fought one Danny Sutton in london and then went to atlantic city (i think) and threw it away against Frazier by doing absolutly nothing for ten rounds...i dont even think the bauble titles had even get off the ground at this stage.....The holmes defence was maybe the first high profile IBF ...but i seem to remember hagler claimed it as well at this time?????

you must be referring to Johnny Davis,
who fought Joe Louis Nov.14.1944 in Buffalo NY .
Davis went into a title fight with 3 wins and 3 loses(all by KO)?
According to boxrec ,his(Davis) Johnny Davis overall career ring record was a
total 26 fights,of which he won only 5 and was knocked out 19 times in his 21 loses!
Anyway even Joe Louis in his his 1978 autobiography MY LIFE lists that "fight"as an"exhibition"
so why has boxrec list it as a title defense .
The New York Athletic commision deemed it as a title defense
Sez who?
Was that before or after Davis was knocked out?
I wonder whose palms were greased back then and who benifited as far as collecting monies.

Maybe someone back then hoped that Joe Louis would pay them NOT to list that fight on his resume.

Scott Frank,Terry Daniels,Jean Pierre Coopman

funso banjo baby wrote:

oliverfennell wrote:

funso banjo baby wrote:peter okhello (his record was one of the most undeserving of all time)

Yep, another good call. Illustration of how winning an affiliated regional title bringing a world ranking can be a bad thing. On that note, Joe Bugner was ranked in the WBA top 10 after winning the PABA strap at age 48!

this was mid 80's ..way before bugner's next comeback....bugner had just fought one Danny Sutton in london and then went to atlantic city (i think) and threw it away against Frazier by doing absolutly nothing for ten rounds...i dont even think the bauble titles had even get off the ground at this stage.....The holmes defence was maybe the first high profile IBF ...but i seem to remember hagler claimed it as well at this time?????

No, I don't mean Bugner's actual title shots. In the 90s, the Aussie-based Bugner beat Bob Mirovic for the PABA belt, which brings with it a WBA top 10 ranking. I think Tyson or Holyfield was champ at the time; just imagine if he was a voluntary challenger for them!