BoxRec

Wel said, ben k.

dberry wrote:

amwsnw wrote:

adamheight wrote:There's no such thing as the "big 3" anymore and hasn't been since the mid 90's. U can thank the wbo for starting what has essentially become the undoing of the importance of the IBF, WBC and WBA. The ibo is just cementing the fact that the "big 3" are no longer as prestigious. De la hoya tried launching "the ring" belt as the ultimate measure of a divisions champ but that doesn't seem to be taking off too much.

I agree. That being said I am sick of the "world champ"moniker anyway. I have seen some of the lesser organisations put on much better match ups over the years than some fights thrown together by the "3 majors". That being said until you have an undisputed champ yu really dont know....so both Klitschkos hold world titles, but surely they both cant be world champs....yes they can !! danny holds a version of the world title and it should be used to generate interest and money, which he and many other fighters will continue to do. Would any of the top "3" step up and fight Green ?? If they dont and take easier options should they still be recognised as world champs ? This argument could go on and on and on (as I think I have).

What, Oniel Bell, Steve Cunningham, Jean Mark Mormeck, Marco Huck and Tomasz Adamek et al. need to 'step up' to challange Danny Green for the IBO cruiserweight title? I like Danny Green but lets get real, he would need to 'step up' to take their titles and prestige if he wants to seriously campain at cruiserweight.

I think you have misunderstood me (which is easy to do). What I am getting at is that should danny defend his IBO title against top notch challengers, whilst others defend against mandatory's who shouldnt be ranked in the top 20, does this still make that fighter, if he holds one of the "3" belts, a more worthy champ ?? I dont think so. Danny defended against a top 10 guy (RJJ) and should be looked at as a world champ in the same terms Huck and the rest are.

oliverfennell wrote:

dberry wrote:It seams to me the only people flying the flag for the WBO and the IBO are their title holders, and more sadly, the fans using these titles to justify their favourite boxers.

Case in point: "cruiserweight champion of the world" Danny Green!

...or former IBO Light Welterweight champion of the world Ricky Hatton.

Brute wrote:

oliverfennell wrote:

dberry wrote:It seams to me the only people flying the flag for the WBO and the IBO are their title holders, and more sadly, the fans using these titles to justify their favourite boxers.

Case in point: "cruiserweight champion of the world" Danny Green!

...or former IBO Light Welterweight champion of the world Ricky Hatton.

Nice.

What, Oniel Bell, Steve Cunningham, Jean Mark Mormeck, Marco Huck and Tomasz Adamek et al. need to 'step up' to challange Danny Green for the IBO cruiserweight title? I like Danny Green but lets get real, he would need to 'step up' to take their titles and prestige if he wants to seriously campain at cruiserweight.[/quote]

Mate i think O'neil Bell hung em up and Adamek is fat now.[/quote]
You know what I'm trying to say.
P.S. adameksays he'll come back to cruiser if the fight is right, so he's still in the mix.[/quote]

Adamek defends his IBF International heavyweight title against Estrada today and is looking for a heavyweight title shot. That "if the fight is right " bit sounds like an attempt to shut a reporter up.

Adamek weighed 220 for his fight against Estrada. He is not going back to Cruiser from there.

amwsnw wrote:Danny defended against a top 10 guy (RJJ) and should be looked at as a world champ in the same terms Huck and the rest are.

But if he'd beaten the same guy in a non-title fight, he would be seen as exactly that: a guy who'd beaten a top 10 guy in a non-title fight. The fact that the letters I, B and O were attached to it does not add anything to the legitimacy of the win and Green's subsequent standing.

Brute wrote:

oliverfennell wrote:

dberry wrote:It seams to me the only people flying the flag for the WBO and the IBO are their title holders, and more sadly, the fans using these titles to justify their favourite boxers.

Case in point: "cruiserweight champion of the world" Danny Green!

...or former IBO Light Welterweight champion of the world Ricky Hatton.

Well, we've already been over that one. Again:

Hatton was the linear champion at the weight. He'd held IBF (twice) and WBA title at the weight and hadn't lost any of them in the ring. He was also the accepted number one in the division and, for what it's worth, the Ring titleholder. If you're of the mind that linear distinction means something, and that a champ shouldn't lose his title in the ring, then he fits the bill.

However, at the same time I realise I have made the case for "big four belts, sans interim" in this very thread. I can accept that Hatton by that definition may not have been an "official" world champ at the time he fought Pacquaio (although he would have been IBF champ for a third time if Malignaggi hasn't been stripped). But I do believe in linear distinction (I even class Shannon Briggs as a former champion).

But whether or not Hatton was considered a world champ at that time has nothing to do with the IBO in either argument. It neither validated his claim, not disqualified it. It was merely an aside.

Furthermore, comparing Hatton and Green is flawed. I never said Green is not a legit former world champion. But his legit world title (also never lost in the ring) was at a different weight. Hatton won three major world belts in the same division that he won the IBO, and was undefeated at the weight until he met Pacquaio. Green's IBO distinction is in a different division to his legit WBA status.

To conclude: If Hatton's next fight sees him win an IBO title, and an IBO title alone, at welterweight, then I won't consider him a world champion.

The IBO title was the only title Hatton held when he fought Pacquaio.

Brute wrote:The IBO title was the only title Hatton held when he fought Pacquaio.

Where in my post above did I say otherwise?

(NB. he held The Ring title, for what it's worth)

Brute wrote:The IBO title was the only title Hatton held when he fought Pacquaio.

but he had beaten tszyu, meaning he was the top man at the weight until someone beat him. so he was ring mag champ, was lineal champ. it's not the same with danny green. for green to have the same distinction, he would have to have beaten tomasz adamek. adamek doesn't have an alphabet title (and can't made cruiser any more), but adamek was crowned the top man at his weight. because him vs cunningham was a bout between the 2 top cruisers in the world, which made it eligible for such distinction as being for ring mag title, and probably the lineal title that historians talk about.

oliverfennell wrote:

Brute wrote:The IBO title was the only title Hatton held when he fought Pacquaio.

Where in my post above did I say otherwise?

(NB. he held The Ring title, for what it's worth)

I'll give you a pie and a couple of beers for it

toppity wrote:

oliverfennell wrote:

Brute wrote:The IBO title was the only title Hatton held when he fought Pacquaio.

Where in my post above did I say otherwise?

(NB. he held The Ring title, for what it's worth)

I'll give you a pie and a couple of beers for it

I'm no fan of The Ring belt, either.

The Ring Belt meant more when Nat Fleischer ran the magazine. It was presented to the undisputed champion.

The ring belt is worth more than any alpha title or IBO/WBF bullshitt title out there WTF.

When Mosely vs Margarito can't get sanctioned for the ring belt and someone like Green and Mundine who have never fought at a particular weight can be sanctioned to fight for an IBO strap against bums or never was fighters there's simply no argument that you can sustain that the ring belt is a sham. The ring belt has the strictest rules, unlike the other bodies.

The boys from England are spot on, however Oliver just completely went against his own argument and i'm sure he's still scratching his head.
You based your entire argument on the fact that Ricky held the IBO strap and Ring belt and the Ring belt was what made Ricky the recognised champ not the IBO, your next post indicated you don't believe in or recognize the ring belt Mate if you believe...believe!
Hatton was the linear and ring champ, he vacated the IBF title won from Kostya and moved to welter, that same belt was fought by 2 fighters in this country, later Hatton gets smashed and moves back down and fights for a vacant belt, the IBO. Ndou who won the vacant belt that was relinquished lost to Mallignaggi who later couldn't get sanctioned to fight Ricky for the IBF title that Ricky vacated a year earlier, so who of course was there to save the day? the vacant IBO title of course but more importantly the ring belt which is universally recognized as the world champion belt. Hatton had every right to be recognised as the LT welter champ, he hadn't lost a fight at that weight and beat the man.
Hatton is now finished of course and his career highlight was a win over an old Kostya.

After seeing Hatton recently I still reckon he could fight Green for the IBO Cruiserweight Title.

Marlin wrote:After seeing Hatton recently I still reckon he could fight Green for the IBO Cruiserweight Title.

perhaps he did take the pie and a couple of beers. :P

Hounddawg wrote:The ring belt is worth more than any alpha title or IBO/WBF bullshitt title out there WTF.

When Mosely vs Margarito can't get sanctioned for the ring belt and someone like Green and Mundine who have never fought at a particular weight can be sanctioned to fight for an IBO strap against bums or never was fighters there's simply no argument that you can sustain that the ring belt is a sham. The ring belt has the strictest rules, unlike the other bodies.

The boys from England are spot on, however Oliver just completely went against his own argument and i'm sure he's still scratching his head.
You based your entire argument on the fact that Ricky held the IBO strap and Ring belt and the Ring belt was what made Ricky the recognised champ not the IBO, your next post indicated you don't believe in or recognize the ring belt Mate if you believe...believe!
Hatton was the linear and ring champ, he vacated the IBF title won from Kostya and moved to welter, that same belt was fought by 2 fighters in this country, later Hatton gets smashed and moves back down and fights for a vacant belt, the IBO. Ndou who won the vacant belt that was relinquished lost to Mallignaggi who later couldn't get sanctioned to fight Ricky for the IBF title that Ricky vacated a year earlier, so who of course was there to save the day? the vacant IBO title of course but more importantly the ring belt which is universally recognized as the world champion belt. Hatton had every right to be recognised as the LT welter champ, he hadn't lost a fight at that weight and beat the man.
Hatton is now finished of course and his career highlight was a win over an old Kostya.

You just said exactly what I said. I didn't contradict myself - I only mentioned the Ring belt because a lot of people do see it as credible. However my argument for Hatton's status as world champ had nothing to do with either the Ring or the IBO, just that he was "the man who beat the man" at the weight. Simple.

On this principle we could nearly make a case for Riddick Bowe to be the "linear" heavyweight champion.

so now green is calling out mundine again?

i'd rather see green in vs an offensive (briggs), not a defensive-minded opponent.

Brute wrote:On this principle we could nearly make a case for Riddick Bowe to be the "linear" heavyweight champion.

Well, he was for a while, and then he lost to Holyfield. Bowe > Holyfield > Moorer > Foreman > Briggs > Lewis, where the last HW lineage ended.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Bowe lost his titles - including linear recognition - in the ring. Hatton did not, until he fought Pacquaio.

oliverfennell wrote:

Brute wrote:On this principle we could nearly make a case for Riddick Bowe to be the "linear" heavyweight champion.

Well, he was for a while, and then he lost to Holyfield. Bowe > Holyfield > Moorer > Foreman > Briggs > Lewis, where the last HW lineage ended.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Bowe lost his titles - including linear recognition - in the ring. Hatton did not, until he fought Pacquaio.

Bit of a joke. Bowe's only "official" loss was to Holyfield who he beat in a rematch before Holyfield beat Tyson, after Tyson beat champions Bruno (WBC) and Seldon (WBA).

Brute wrote:

oliverfennell wrote:

Brute wrote:On this principle we could nearly make a case for Riddick Bowe to be the "linear" heavyweight champion.

Well, he was for a while, and then he lost to Holyfield. Bowe > Holyfield > Moorer > Foreman > Briggs > Lewis, where the last HW lineage ended.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Bowe lost his titles - including linear recognition - in the ring. Hatton did not, until he fought Pacquaio.

Bit of a joke. Bowe's only "official" loss was to Holyfield who he beat in a rematch before Holyfield beat Tyson, after Tyson beat champions Bruno (WBC) and Seldon (WBA).

Yes, I knew it was tongue in cheek. However lineage considers timelines, not just opposition. By the time Bowe gained revenge over Holyfield, Holyfield had already passed on the lineage,

If we look only at opposition, then Colin Wilson is not only the linear champ, he's the greatest of all time! (Wilson beat Thunder, who beat Berbick, who beat Ali!)

oliverfennell wrote:

Brute wrote:

oliverfennell wrote: Well, he was for a while, and then he lost to Holyfield. Bowe > Holyfield > Moorer > Foreman > Briggs > Lewis, where the last HW lineage ended.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Bowe lost his titles - including linear recognition - in the ring. Hatton did not, until he fought Pacquaio.

Bit of a joke. Bowe's only "official" loss was to Holyfield who he beat in a rematch before Holyfield beat Tyson, after Tyson beat champions Bruno (WBC) and Seldon (WBA).

Yes, I knew it was tongue in cheek. However lineage considers timelines, not just opposition. By the time Bowe gained revenge over Holyfield, Holyfield had already passed on the lineage,

If we look only at opposition, then Colin Wilson is not only the linear champ, he's the greatest of all time! (Wilson beat Thunder, who beat Berbick, who beat Ali!)

Correct.

G&F :>