raylawpc wrote:
I was not an Ali fan. I favored him over his opponent on only one occasion. But I still believe Ali was a great and, yes, a courageous fighter. My disagreement is when one says its "nonsense" to suggest a fighter might have quit when, in fact, that fighter is sitting on his stool at the end of the fight, telling his trainer "thank you" for stopping it. Even if I don't personally believe Ali quit, in the classic sense of the word, I do think there is circumstantial evidence in that situation from which a reasonable person could infer that he did quit.
This does not make sense. Even if Ali said "thank you", that is not "circumstantial evidence" that he quit. Maybe he was grateful that Dundee stopped it. That is not the same thing as quitting.
Sure, he knew he had no chance and probably did not want to continue. That by no means that he would not have.
A reasonable person is not always reasonable. It is not reasonable to say Ali quit when he did simply did not.
The bottom line is that Ali did not quit. That is a fact. Therefore it is indeed nonsense to suggest that he did.
As usual, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Makes sense to me that, if a boxer is sitting on his stool when his manager tells the referee he's stopping the fight, and the fighter tells his manager "thank you," a reasonable person could believe that fighter quit. Take the name "Muhammad Ali" out of the equation, and I think you'll agree with me. You refuse to accept that a reasonable person could believe Ali would quit because he's, well, Ali. But I suggest that if it was any other fighter, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
BTW, I'm still wondering how much more strenuous argument you would have had Joe Frazier put up in the Thrilla in Manila to signal that Frazier disagreed with his manager's decision to stop the contest.
No it is not because it Ali. I can actually judge things by what happened or did not happen regardless of who we are talking about. (btw I have criticized Ali for other things from time to time.) I would say the same thing if it was someone else. I suspect you would not be saying this if was not Ali. Even if Ali did say "thank you" it is not reasonable to say he quit. Why? Because he didn't quit. Dundee very loudly told the ref it was over. That was that.
As for Frazier, I don't think he quit and have said so. I just mentioned that he didn't seem to object very much at the time. Futch himself said Frazier didn't protest much. A couple half-hearted shaking of the head really is not much of a protest. I saw Frazier interviewed at length later and he never said anything about wanting to continue. It was much later that we heard his complaints about it getting stopped prematurely.
Okay, suit yourself. However, I would remind you that I never said that Ali quit. I took issue with your statement that it was nonsense for Irene to think he quit.
(P.S.: The UPI quoted Frazier saying immediately after the fight that "I wanted to keep going. . . I wasn't happy about the fight being stopped." But he agreed that Futch "means for my best.")
Last edited by raylawpc on 09 Jun 2010, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Not a-one of them can come forward though, Alp? Not even one? It happens with every Poll. Weak.
tzyuforever did.
He came forward, but he didn't explain his reasoning, which is what I was asking about. I just wonder if some people who voted for Tzsyu are simply really big fans, or they just never saw Duran or Chavez in their prime so they have nothing to compare Tzsyu with.
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Not a-one of them can come forward though, Alp? Not even one? It happens with every Poll. Weak.
tzyuforever did.
He came forward, but he didn't explain his reasoning, which is what I was asking about. I just wonder if some people who voted for Tzsyu are simply really big fans, or they just never saw Duran or Chavez in their prime so they have nothing to compare Tzsyu with.
I've seen them all in their primes, and yes I am also a huge fan of KT. Most people on here take me with a grain of salt when any Tszyu discussions come up.
That being said, Tszyu was clearly not as dogged as Chavez when it came to walking someone down. He did attack, but he mixed in a a lot of counterpunching as well. But when Kostya hurt you, he finished you. Plain and simple.
He came forward, but he didn't explain his reasoning, which is what I was asking about. I just wonder if some people who voted for Tzsyu are simply really big fans, or they just never saw Duran or Chavez in their prime so they have nothing to compare Tzsyu with.
I've seen them all in their primes, and yes I am also a huge fan of KT. Most people on here take me with a grain of salt when any Tszyu discussions come up.
That being said, Tszyu was clearly not as dogged as Chavez when it came to walking someone down. He did attack, but he mixed in a a lot of counterpunching as well. But when Kostya hurt you, he finished you. Plain and simple.
Thanks for the response. I enjoyed Tszyu. I wouldn't put him in the same league with Duran or Chavez, but he was fun to watch
One post above?
" emoticon on-hand, but you went to the effort to import? 